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Karsten
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Posted - 2005.02.27 19:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Karsten on 27/02/2005 20:57:24
The core idea is to make it harder and unnessary for a person or corp to block a lot labs for ever.
Therefore i suggest the following:
- Labs lots are no longer renter for a certain period of time (now 5 days) but for a number of research cycles
- The number of cycles is limited to maximum lets say 30
- The rental fee is based on a hourly basic price. Example: you want to reseach something 10 times. Each research operation takes 5 hours. So you have to pay 5*10 * hourly_price
- The rent has to be paid in advanced. If you cancel the research operation before it has been completed you will not get the rent back.
- After a rent expires the lab will be unavialble for a random "clean up" period lasting between 1 and 3 hours.
- After the "clean up" period the lab can be rented again with one exception. It can not be rented to the same person, someone in the same corp as the previous owner or the same corp (including NPC corps) for a period of 24 hours.
- The hourly rental price varies between 1000 and 10000isk per hour bases on the number of unrented labs at the station. No labs free - the price will go up 5%. 1 lab free - price will stay constant. 2 labs free price will go down 5%.
I think this has the following advantages:
- It frees us from the need to hold slots because we fear now rightly that if we really need a slot none will be avialable.
- It makes the real r&d cost more transperent. You see now what it realy cost to reseach ME or make BPcs. One will find out very fast teh costly way that IRON S ME1000 makes no sense at all.
- It makes it much easier to find free lab slots without the need of adding a lot of new slots.
Disadvantages
- CCP has to change some program code and database structures
- its more complex then the old way
Numbers are guesses and WILL for sure need some fine tuning.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Killer Gandry
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Posted - 2005.02.27 19:37:00 -
[2]
I have to agree to certain extend with Karsten because the current labrental system is a hastely fix and isn't even a fix.
New players are either forced to buy researched BPO's from labowners at very high prices or pay a crapload of ISK to get their own BPO's researched.
BPC prices are rising skyhigh since labowners are calculating the labrental costs withing the BPC sale.
Only those that have the big selling BPO's will sell in time and thus closing a large portion of the game for a large number of players.
Allso office rents should be looked at while we are at it.
Offices should unrent automaticly if a corporation goes to zero players, this would open up offices all over the place.
However the fact that there is a clean up period won't contribute more then just the fact that people get ****ed because the open labslot can't be rented when they are at the station, thus they have to park their character there to hope they can rent it and maybe wait 3 hours to do so, contantly clicking to see if they can finally rent it.
In the meantime the former labowner will have an alt at said station and will switch to it 5 minutes prior to the end of the clean up period to have a good chance to have the alt rent it.
Better to try and fail, then to fail due to not trying |
Karsten
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Posted - 2005.02.27 19:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Karsten on 27/02/2005 19:53:47
The "clean up " period is the make it harder for people to chain rent labs. A player will know when his job expires. He could use a alt char or friend in another corp to rent the lab at the moment the job has ended. The clean up makes this harder.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Aliksr
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Posted - 2005.02.27 22:23:00 -
[4]
there are two ways to prevent uneconomic use of labslots
1. you can make it a pain in the ass to use labslots
2. you can raise the price of labslots
i make millions from each BPO i research. i will, thus, gladly pay millions for my labslots
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Sable Moran
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Posted - 2005.02.28 10:43:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sable Moran on 28/02/2005 11:03:02
 Originally by: Karsten
Edited by: Karsten on 27/02/2005 19:53:47
The "clean up " period is the make it harder for people to chain rent labs. A player will know when his job expires. He could use a alt char or friend in another corp to rent the lab at the moment the job has ended. The clean up makes this harder.
The clean up period idea needs quite a lot more thought. Consider this scenario: I bought some time ago all projectile ammo BPs, that's 24 prints. Of course i wanted to do some ME/PL research on all of them. I went to my labs and put the first batch in, when they were fininsed another batch went in and so on. Nice and tidy. I got the prints in production in a couple of weeks.
With that silly 'clean up period' idea I would still be researching the prints because I would not be able to rely on getting an access to a lab slot when I needed to.
In serious industrial business you need to have certain resources at your disposal _reliably_ without the need to wait out some contrived 'clean up periods'.
Edit: toned down the wording a bit, didn't mean to be that harsh.
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Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Karsten
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Posted - 2005.02.28 11:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sable Moran
In serious industrial business you need to have certain resources at your disposal _reliably_ without the need to wait out some contrived 'clean up periods'.
The demand for _reliably_ lead to the current problems. In order to have labs at the moment one really needs them many people are blocking labs and do "unnessary" research with things like ammo bpo at ME1000. The current model has reached a point where most player cannot afford a lab anymore. Especally when they are trading low cost items like your shop.
Maybe the idea is stupid  but i doubt that the current situation is much more intellegent.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.02.28 12:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Killer Gandry
New players are either forced to buy researched BPO's from labowners at very high prices or pay a crapload of ISK to get their own BPO's researched.
I don't see why this game has to be 'fair' for new players.
New players shouldn't be bothering with production on large scale for a long time anyway.
Also for all the small items you don't have to bother researching them to still make a decent profit.
Go buy a vigil and a kestrel bpo, the basic gear everyone uses on them, check the markets a bit and you can make good money with unresearched bpos.
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DHU InMe
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Posted - 2005.03.02 02:21:00 -
[8]
ANother problem is people only copy blueprint...
I mean I have a batch of turret to research 5/25 but since all lab are taked I can't research them...
There should be lab to COPY ONLY, and RESEARCH ONLY.
copy generally take 10% of time, pe 5-10%, me 60-80%
So 50% of lab assigned to research would be nice.
Nice links (updated 20 Dec 04):
BP, bugs about them.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way. |
McClane
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Posted - 2005.03.02 08:13:00 -
[9]
Edited by: McClane on 02/03/2005 08:22:15
Good idea Karsten.
Something has to be done to make labs more available to more players.
I think the rental increases are fair (as i see it as an attempt from ccp to force lab slot holders letting some of them go), but with increasing lab rents the way its done atm I dont think CCP will achieve the result CCP intend to achieve.
First of all, as it has been said so many times before it obstructs newer players from trying out the research part of the game either because they cant find a lab or because they cant afford to rent one. Secondly the rental prices has to go much higher before it will force the bigger corps to let them go.
But like Tobiaz I depend labs in my buisness as well. But if you knew I wouldnt have to look very far to find a new I wouldnt mind releasing one now and then when its not as needed as it is in other periods.
I think CCP really should consider Karstens idea as I think it is really constructive. The random 1 to 3 hour clean up period is brilliant too imo. It will really be the key to open labs for availability more often.
McClane
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Cyber Baron
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Posted - 2005.03.02 19:08:00 -
[10]
Karsten, you have my hat off, your suggestion is simply excellent.
I hope CCP will read this post.
And if I were CCP, I would hire you to join their team.. lol
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Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mining Maxx on 03/03/2005 11:45:11
Hi,
for once I got nothing better to do during DT besides being very pleased the forums now aren't disabled during that time... and I like contributing to this topic as I really am very unhappy with the current scheme anyway...
Anyway... check my post here which covers a change of the lab slot scheme combined with an office change.
Like Karsten I don't claim it to be perfect at all.. it's an attempt to fix something which I personally think was broken for a long time and has gotten even worse by just raising rents and lowering rental periods.
However, these changes there would overall require smaller changes to the game structure i think but might still noticably affect office and lab slot availability.
In a slightly more extended version I have added some additional thoughts similar to Karsten's, namely some kind of limit on research cycles. That post is currently in our own forum and unless anyone actually cares i won't repost it all again.
I know it's sometimes annoying posting to the same kind of thread over and over again, but unless anyone ever sees such considerations making it to the right ears its the only thing you can do to get some attention ;)
Funnily, at the time of that post some offices near my current location were at 10mil rent... these are now at 14-16mil ;)
Regards...
PS. If you'd like to see the revised post just state it here and I'll go and paste it.
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Rhombus
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Posted - 2005.03.04 18:25:00 -
[12]
Hi Karsten,
great ideas. I support that as we (our corp) have been looking for slots for months now and simply have a research unit not being able to use their skills. To say this straight:
The current system makes some of our members characters, which are maxed out scientists, useless.
What I have concerns with is a cost depending on the research runs, as this might have an impact on the profit you make with a BPO in one slot. I would suggest to simply increase the rent of a slot each time you extend the renting period. In case of highly valuable BPOs you will pay the price. In regard to normal BPOs, you may think about moving your BPOs from time to time...
Additionally I'd say that we pay for EVE to play the game AND for CCP to change the code in order to improve the game. 
Regards,
Rhombus
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