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Nullsec AFKloakers are a CCP design goal fail - needs discussion!

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zljuka	Posted - 2011.08.22 17:25:00 - [271] Originally by: Mag's How does this make it harder, to have a 23.5/7 cloaky alt two years ago? It's easier to make isk and to have alts. Number of alts has grown drastically, and dedicated afk-cloaker alts among them.
Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.22 17:41:00 - [272] Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 17:42:49 Originally by: zljuka Originally by: Mag's How does this make it harder, to have a 23.5/7 cloaky alt two years ago? It's easier to make isk and to have alts. Number of alts has grown drastically, and dedicated afk-cloaker alts among them. yes, the changes of black ops, covert ops and recon mechanics (plus previous addition of plex) two years ago has produced a power cake of afk cloakers.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.22 17:48:00 - [273] Edited by: Mag''s on 22/08/2011 17:49:40 Originally by: zljuka Originally by: Mag's How does this make it harder, to have a 23.5/7 cloaky alt two years ago? It's easier to make isk and to have alts. Number of alts has grown drastically, and dedicated afk-cloaker alts among them. It's as easy now to make ISK and have alts, as it was two years ago. Don't confuse an increase in AFK cloakers, with ease of ISK making and alt accounts. Personally I have less accounts now than two years ago, so actually having a 23.5/7 alt cloaker is harder. But unless my personal situation matches the general one, it's irrelevant. The reason they have increased, is because the tactic works on people like yourself and the OP. Although it has to be said, I haven't seen any numbers that quantify any actual increase in AFK cloakers. But I'll go along with the premise of an increase, for the sake of argument. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.22 18:13:00 - [274] The real reason there are more AFK cloakers today, and you have to admit it, is because there is a constant barrage of people whining about afk cloakers, which inspires more people to go out and roll them. The best way to beat afk cloakers is to simply quit posting about it (feeding the tears) and keep an eye open for that possibility of attack. A little streak of paranoia keeps you alive in wormholes, it'll work in null too. Take away the tears, adapt to the presence. AFK cloaking nerfed just like that. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
zljuka	Posted - 2011.08.22 18:36:00 - [275] Originally by: Mag's ... I knew you don't live in 0.0 space. Otherwise you would know of anomalies invented year ago.
Bane Nucleus Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost	Posted - 2011.08.22 19:09:00 - [276] If the isk is so easy to make, why don't you guys counter the afk cloaker with one of your own. it shouldn't be anything to just get another account with the isk so free flowing. Surely that will make him think twice before doing anything mean and bad.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.22 19:30:00 - [277] Edited by: Mag''s on 22/08/2011 19:33:17 Originally by: zljuka Originally by: Mag's ... I knew you don't live in 0.0 space. Otherwise you would know of anomalies invented year ago. I don't live in null sec now, you are correct. You must be new here, or you don't remember static complexes that were changed into exploration. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
SGT FUNYOUN Gallente	Posted - 2011.08.22 21:59:00 - [278] Edited by: SGT FUNYOUN on 22/08/2011 22:06:42 Edited by: SGT FUNYOUN on 22/08/2011 21:59:55 Oh look... another carebear whining about cloaking devices. Your ideas have been shot down time and time again. Examples include: Cloak Whiner 1 Cloak Whiner 2 Cloak Whiner 3 Cloak Whiner 4 Cloak Whiner 5 Cloak Whiner 6 I think you will see that your idea has been hashed out and whined over many times. Cloaks are supposed to be NEARLY invincible. They are designed specifically so that someone can spy on you without you knowing they are there. That is how they were designed by Issac Asimov, the Godfather of Sci-Fi. Stop whining and either learn to play OR GO PLAY WOW!!! STOP FU*NG WITH MY SCI-FI D* IT!!! Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!!
Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.22 23:20:00 - [279] Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 23:26:00 - [280] Originally by: Andrea Roche Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time.

Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.23 10:59:00 - [281] Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.23 11:08:00 - [282] Originally by: Andrea Roche Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2011.08.23 11:14:00 - [283] Seems as if the discussion is gridlocked, we will just have to wait and see what CCP does. In the meantime I will continue doing lvl4 with my alt. :) Thanks Robert and Mag's for being gentlemen. Unusual on eve-o forums.
Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.23 11:55:00 - [284] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Andrea Roche Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk. i am interested to know why you think not. I mean people will still need to rat or mine or people will still want "easy kills" so i really dont see why they wouldnt do it since the only thing that changes is local. You can still be afk cloaked and scan and make the attack. Can you explain yourself why you think not?
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.23 12:09:00 - [285] Edited by: Mag''s on 23/08/2011 12:16:24 Originally by: Andrea Roche Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Andrea Roche Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk. i am interested to know why you think not. I mean people will still need to rat or mine or people will still want "easy kills" so i really dont see why they wouldnt do it since the only thing that changes is local. You can still be afk cloaked and scan and make the attack. Can you explain yourself why you think not? Both your replies were pure facepalm and you called me a troll. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.08.23 12:09:00 - [286] Originally by: Andrea Roche Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Andrea Roche Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk. i am interested to know why you think not. I mean people will still need to rat or mine or people will still want "easy kills" so i really dont see why they wouldnt do it since the only thing that changes is local. You can still be afk cloaked and scan and make the attack. Can you explain yourself why you think not? 1. Why would you need to be online? You might as well be offline altogether, because your target can't see you anyway (remember, no local, and while you're cloaked there are no other ways to detect you currently) 2. When you scan and make the attack, you're not AFK. You sure you know what AFK means? --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.23 13:28:00 - [287] Originally by: Gemberslaafje Originally by: Andrea Roche Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Andrea Roche Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk. i am interested to know why you think not. I mean people will still need to rat or mine or people will still want "easy kills" so i really dont see why they wouldnt do it since the only thing that changes is local. You can still be afk cloaked and scan and make the attack. Can you explain yourself why you think not? 1. Why would you need to be online? You might as well be offline altogether, because your target can't see you anyway (remember, no local, and while you're cloaked there are no other ways to detect you currently) 2. When you scan and make the attack, you're not AFK. You sure you know what AFK means? I understand here you are going with this. You do have a valid point but. What about looking at it from the other perspective that lets say you want to jump a ratter (tyical rating system), so you afk cloak until the right time to get ratter lets say 4 hours from cloaking time. Then you spot the right momment and you jump a ratter or cyno on top of him. Do you still think people will not do afk ratting, specially on a well known ratting system and when you can now go undetected in local?? Do you think this would be a valid argument? Wouldnt detection of a covert cyno be even harder to spot if you cant even see him in local? Do you think this may happen and is also a valid argument?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.23 13:46:00 - [288] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/08/2011 13:46:40 Originally by: Andrea Roche I understand here you are going with this. You do have a valid point but. What about looking at it from the other perspective that lets say you want to jump a ratter (tyical rating system), so you afk cloak until the right time to get ratter lets say 4 hours from cloaking time. Then you spot the right momment and you jump a ratter or cyno on top of him. Do you still think people will not do afk ratting, specially on a well known ratting system and when you can now go undetected in local?? Do you think this would be a valid argument? Wouldnt detection of a covert cyno be even harder to spot if you cant even see him in local? Do you think this may happen and is also a valid argument? again, if you are AFK(!), i.e. not scanning for ratters, flying around, looking at the gate, opening cynos on top of someone but are away from keyboard, there would be absolutely no point of staying logged in! Even if you are at the keyboard but there are no targets around you could simply log off and mess around with the other 2 chars on the same account or play a different game at all, since NOONE WOULD REGISTER YOUR AFK ABSENSE THERE ANYMORE without local!
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.23 13:48:00 - [289] Originally by: Andrea Roche What about looking at it from the other perspective that lets say you want to jump a ratter (tyical rating system), so you afk cloak until the right time to get ratter lets say 4 hours from cloaking time. Then you spot the right momment and you jump a ratter or cyno on top of him. Why would you need to AFK cloak for 4 hours? No one can see you, so what would be the point? You would log, then log back in later and even then they wouldn't see you. Originally by: Andrea Roche Do you still think people will not do afk ratting, specially on a well known ratting system and when you can now go undetected in local?? Do you think this would be a valid argument? Well they would take that risk and that's their choice. But now you're mixing your arguments between AFK ratting and AFK cloaking. AFK ratting is irrelevant, as far as this argument is concerned. Originally by: Andrea Roche Wouldnt detection of a covert cyno be even harder to spot if you cant even see him in local? Do you think this may happen and is also a valid argument? You're stating the obvious and suggesting it as an argument for what exactly? Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.08.23 14:21:00 - [290] Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:23:52 Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:21:51 1. Remove Local 2. Make a list of everyone within a decent amount of AU's, but considerably less then scan range. This list would include cloakers. (I will take 10 AU's for this list as an example for this post) 3. Leave the rest as-is - for now Situation 1: You are a cloaker, and want to gank stuff. If you jump into a system, you are only spotted if someone is within 10 AUs, or is scanning that gate. Otherwise, you will stay undetected, unless you move within 10 AUs from you, then they will know you are around. You probe/scan something/someone out who is 12 AU's away from you. You engage warp. They will see you when you are already in warp. (to be continued) Situation 2: You are a carebear, and want to stay alive. At some point, you pick up a neutral pilot within 10 AU's of you, but there's nothing on scan. Now, hopefully, as a good little carebear, you're aligned. In that case you can most likely instawarp. If not, well... Situation 3 (continued from 1): You drop out of warp, and notice that one of the carebears wasn't aligned. You tackle it, and open your covert cyno. 4 blackops ships jump in, finishing the job. However, you haven't noticed the hostile PvP gang at about 20 AU's from you. Suddenly, your 'local' fills up with baddies already in warp towards you. Yoww.. Also, in this system, you won't notice a cloaker outside of 10 AUs. So if you do see a cloaker, you could just warp to the other side of the system and go on doing what you are doing. The point is: it should be enough AU's to give people time to react, while preventing people from fleeing as someone jumps in. It also promotes working together, cause you could of course just have someone cloak off the gate and tell you when someone comes through. That's effort, rather then scanning local chat. --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox

Newt Rondanse	Posted - 2011.08.23 14:37:00 - [291] Or Mr. Carebear puts a cloaky alt of his own at the gate, eyes on the gate, and gets the instant intel from that window if he hears a jump activation. In fact, if he's botting he can probably afford to cover 2 or 3 gates that way, and there's nothing at all to stop a 'bot from reading multiple windows at the same time.
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.08.23 14:45:00 - [292] Originally by: Newt Rondanse Or Mr. Carebear puts a cloaky alt of his own at the gate, eyes on the gate, and gets the instant intel from that window if he hears a jump activation. In fact, if he's botting he can probably afford to cover 2 or 3 gates that way, and there's nothing at all to stop a 'bot from reading multiple windows at the same time. But he can do that anyway, even if you delete local with nothing else. Cause you're always visible for a very brief period. A bot especially will see this, and report, making the ship flee. However, at least you'd need alts, or other players, or EFFORT to do these things Looking at local is no effort. --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
Bane Nucleus Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost	Posted - 2011.08.23 14:47:00 - [293] Originally by: Newt Rondanse Or Mr. Carebear puts a cloaky alt of his own at the gate, eyes on the gate, and gets the instant intel from that window if he hears a jump activation. This is what I do when I decide to do a ladar site in my wh. Put an alt cloaked on our static wh and turn the volume up. That way I can tell if anyone jumps into the system just by the sound itself. It's called adapting to an environment, something some of the nullbears seem unwilling to do.
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.08.23 14:52:00 - [294] Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:57:04 Originally by: Bane Nucleus Originally by: Newt Rondanse Or Mr. Carebear puts a cloaky alt of his own at the gate, eyes on the gate, and gets the instant intel from that window if he hears a jump activation. This is what I do when I decide to do a ladar site in my wh. Put an alt cloaked on our static wh and turn the volume up. That way I can tell if anyone jumps into the system just by the sound itself. It's called adapting to an environment, something some of the nullbears seem unwilling to do. Isn't 'Adapt or die' something of EVE's motto? Anyway, the beauty of my 10AU system is that, even if you do watch the gates, once someone is in he can dissapear for a while, and then suddenly be active and reappear (warping towards you) Now, you still have some time to react, BUT, the cloaky has a much better chance of getting ganks, without making the carebear helpless The similar situation without the 10AU system would be one of "Oh, hostile here and cloaked... you wait.. and wait.. Is he gone yet? no... he could be logged off and gone forever..." and eventually you start ratting again, and without warning you are tackled and destroyed. That's why i think the 10AU system is the ultimate compromise. --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
Bane Nucleus Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:05:00 - [295] As long such ideas stay in null sec and out of wh space, you guys can do whatever you'd like.
Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:06:00 - [296] Originally by: Gemberslaafje Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:23:52 Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:21:51 1. Remove Local 2. Make a list of everyone within a decent amount of AU's, but considerably less then scan range. This list would include cloakers. (I will take 10 AU's for this list as an example for this post) 3. Leave the rest as-is - for now Situation 1: You are a cloaker, and want to gank stuff. If you jump into a system, you are only spotted if someone is within 10 AUs, or is scanning that gate. Otherwise, you will stay undetected, unless you move within 10 AUs from you, then they will know you are around. You probe/scan something/someone out who is 12 AU's away from you. You engage warp. They will see you when you are already in warp. (to be continued) Situation 2: You are a carebear, and want to stay alive. At some point, you pick up a neutral pilot within 10 AU's of you, but there's nothing on scan. Now, hopefully, as a good little carebear, you're aligned. In that case you can most likely instawarp. If not, well... Situation 3 (continued from 1): You drop out of warp, and notice that one of the carebears wasn't aligned. You tackle it, and open your covert cyno. 4 blackops ships jump in, finishing the job. However, you haven't noticed the hostile PvP gang at about 20 AU's from you. Suddenly, your 'local' fills up with baddies already in warp towards you. Yoww.. Also, in this system, you won't notice a cloaker outside of 10 AUs. So if you do see a cloaker, you could just warp to the other side of the system and go on doing what you are doing. The point is: it should be enough AU's to give people time to react, while preventing people from fleeing as someone jumps in. It also promotes working together, cause you could of course just have someone cloak off the gate and tell you when someone comes through. That's effort, rather then scanning local chat. You obviously understood where i was going with my previous entry based on the answer. Yes the dscan even without local helps alot spcially when you are cloak and the others are not. Yes limiting dscan may work but you will have one up now cos they dont know you are there cos of the "perma cloak". Which means you can warp around cloaked to all planets and dscan and get a hit. And they still wouldnt know you are in system cos there are no probs or nothing to give you away. As an afk cloker you will know that between now and the next few hours there is gonna be someone rating in these well known ratting system but the person loging in or entering the system to rat ill never know unless you get uncloaked which you wont with the permacloak. While you understood where i was going regretfully the others didnt/ignored completlly what i said.
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:07:00 - [297] Originally by: Bane Nucleus As long such ideas stay in null sec and out of wh space, you guys can do whatever you'd like. The big disadvantage of wormhole space is that cynos are useless. So the worst that can happen there is a fleet of Covert Recons. In 0.0, you could actually end up with a fleet of carriers, dreads, blackopses, etc. from 1 covert ops guy. --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
Andrea Roche	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:09:00 - [298] Originally by: Bane Nucleus As long such ideas stay in null sec and out of wh space, you guys can do whatever you'd like. lol, i had to laugh. Next round wh nerf =) jk.
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:10:00 - [299] Originally by: Andrea Roche You obviously understood where i was going with my previous entry based on the answer. Yes the dscan even without local helps alot spcially when you are cloak and the others are not. Yes limiting dscan may work but you will have one up now cos they dont know you are there cos of the "perma cloak". Which means you can warp around cloaked to all planets and dscan and get a hit. And they still wouldnt know you are in system cos there are no probs or nothing to give you away. As an afk cloker you will know that between now and the next few hours there is gonna be someone rating in these well known ratting system but the person loging in or entering the system to rat ill never know unless you get uncloaked which you wont with the permacloak. While you understood where i was going regretfully the others didnt/ignored completlly what i said. Part of the problem (respectfully) is that you are either very young or English is not your first language. And it's very easy to spot other people's mistakes/misunderstandings, while it's very hard to actually give unbiased alternatives. --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
Bane Nucleus Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:16:00 - [300] Originally by: Gemberslaafje Originally by: Bane Nucleus As long such ideas stay in null sec and out of wh space, you guys can do whatever you'd like. The big disadvantage of wormhole space is that cynos are useless. So the worst that can happen there is a fleet of Covert Recons. In 0.0, you could actually end up with a fleet of carriers, dreads, blackopses, etc. from 1 covert ops guy. I find that to be one of wormhole life's greatest assets. No cynos makes people plan/think a little more. And truth be told, I can't remember any time where I was just jumped by a cov ops fleet. Normally its a cov ops tackling and trying to survive while help is on the way.



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