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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.15 19:09:00 -
[1]
Thank you for doing this. FW is a great way to play eve but it has been neglected by ccp.
Keep in mind talking about ôfixing faction warö, and talking about how faction war currently works in a broken state are 2 completely different things.
Most people in faction war do not use the foundational mechanic of faction war - occupancy plexing. The heads of larger corps may or may not have any interest/knowledge about this.
The problem with occupancy plexing I think can be summed up by this:
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), à.111 faction warfare complexes were captured à I did not kill anyone in the process..ö Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Because the militias do not know when plexes are entered many people fly a pve ship and run the plexes in backwater systems without anyone even knowing they are there.
The other problem with plexes are the npcs. They force people to fly pve ships so they can tank their damage. Bu then since they are in a pve ship they donÆt want to pvp.
Here is a proposal that discusses many of the issues:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Here is a list of issues that have been brought up by others:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1564233&page=1#1
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:13:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cearain on 16/08/2011 01:15:13
 Originally by: X Gallentius
Things that need fixing:
#1. Remote Reps on FW entities that are below -5.0 and taking a Faction HIT.
#2. Fix for Plexing in order for control of systems. Better mechanic make it mean something to control systems. OR give out good chunk of Faction LP for taking Offense or Defense Plexes.
#3. FW alliances. There ought to be a way to get the role play alliances into FW.
#4. Minnies and Gallente Should show up with same purple tags. Amarr and Caldari should also show up purple to each other. 2/3rds of FW is great (fights, missions). #5. Pirate faction ships are treated as T1 ships for plex entrance requirements. They should be treated as T2 ships since in all cases they are better than their T2 equivalents. This flaw limits the ability of poor (read: newer) players from having good fights.
Things that are great about FW:
1. PvP is great
2. Missions ae lucrative.
3. System occupancy mechanics suck, but there are still fights to be had, and ship limited combat is great (in both missions and plexes).
------
One last thing: Please don't let the podcast be dominated by a crappy plexing mechanic everybody knows sucks. Only one portion of FW is implemented poorly, but otherwise there is great pew to be had and that's what 90% of the non-mission running alts want when they log on.
I certainly agree that FW is the best part of eve. This fact is often lost when people only talk about the fact that fw plexing is broken.
Nonetheless fw plexxing is the backbone mechanic of fw and any serious attempt to fix it/discuss it has to deal with it. But as it currently stands plexxing is pretty much irrelevant to fw.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Cearain
I certainly agree that FW is the best part of eve. This fact is often lost when people only talk about the fact that fw plexing is broken.
Nonetheless fw plexxing is the backbone mechanic of fw and any serious attempt to fix it/discuss it has to deal with it. But as it currently stands plexxing is pretty much irrelevant to fw.
Plexing is 1/3rd of the backbone mechanics of FW. The other 2/3rds are 1) Free permanent war dec, and 2) FW missions.
Right now I would say plexing is 1/100th of faction war. the other 99/100s lies in the free war dec and fw missions.
But I think occupancy plexing *should* be the backbone of fw. The missions should just be a means (isk) to an end (occupancy for your faction.) I suspect that was the intent and that is why I don't think its wrong to say the mechanics are so badly in need of updating that fw is pretty much broken.
Saying the war dec is a backbone mechanic is true in a very limmitted sense. Of course we need to have the war dec for fw to work.
But again its hardly any great "feature" since any 2 corps or alliances can make a mutual war dec and it is a permanent war dec for very little up front money.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:27:00 -
[4]
This thread reminds me why I fight on the Amarr Minmatar front.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:44:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Cearain on 22/08/2011 15:45:33
Originally by: Cearain
Keep in mind talking about ôfixing faction warö, and talking about how faction war currently works in a broken state are 2 completely different things.
Most people in faction war do not use the foundational mechanic of faction war - occupancy plexing. The heads of larger corps may or may not have any interest/knowledge about this.
I just quoted this again because I think this is where this is leading.
I also agree with X Gallentius that too often the discussion of faction war revolves around what is broken with it. That in turn leads to many people missing out on what I consider the best part of eve.
I really think 2 podcasts would be in order. This is a sizable part of game and would be time well spent.
The first podcast could describe the basic mechanics, and what fw is like currently. For this you would probably want a ceo an fc and maybe someone who goes solo etc or who someone who does some of it all. This podcast could cover why people join fw as it exists today and really what are fun things to do in fw. If someone had experience in null sec or as a pirate they could talk about the advantages and disadvantages of each type of game and pvp in particular. This podcast could be an explanation of what is great about fw and how it provides many unique opportunities in eve.
The other podcast could cover how to fix fw. At first you could again rehash the basic plex mechanics and give the skinny on why it is broken. If you just look at the list of items that have been brought up and briefly covered those with a groupd of people interested in fw then you would certainly have a sizable podcast.
edit: BTW I would think the two podcasts would have different people on them. Maybe some overlap but pretty much each would discuss distinct topics.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.22 17:40:00 -
[6]
@Hirana Yoshida
I had listened to pod goo before. And if I am remembering right he doesn't know much about faction war and thought it would be good to have people on, who do. They could explain it to him and his audience. Most people who play eve probably only have a vague idea about faction war so I think this is a great idea.
So I was thinking it would be a bit of fw 101 with the added benefit of having some people explain how as a practical matter the mechanics play out on tranquility. So yeah some explanation of the fw missions and how they are different than others. Some explanation of the plexing mechanic. Yes explain the war dec and what that means for where you can go in high sec etc. How do people make a living? What people do with the various mechanics etc. What are some good solo fits? Where fights occur and what types of fights occur where? Is it good for solo small gang pvp or just blobs? What sorts of ships are fcs looking for? Will people in the different militias let you in a fleet? What criteria are they using? What sort of players are different corps looking for? Are there any shared goals among corps? Is there any infighting? Just really try to give people an accurate picture of what fw is and is not. Thats just skimming the top of my mind. There actually is quite a bit to talk about.
The second session could talk about the different changes people have been proposing. As you can see from the list I made its pretty lengthy and could easy make for a great podcast in itself.
But I think if they try to do both in one podcast it will get a bit convoluted. I think that was the concern of XGallentius. We can get sidetracked onto how we would all like to fix the plexing mechanic and not inform people of what is great about fw as it is. That is why I was thinking 2 seperate podcasts.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.22 22:15:00 -
[7]
Predator Elite would definitely be an excellent pick for an amarr fc perspective.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:18:00 -
[8]
Name Family Name,
I do agree with pretty much everything you said. They shouldn't really try to cover the issues with plexing and how FW currently works in the same podcast.
However, I think that occupancy plexing should really be the back bone of FW. Otherwise its just a large war dec and a new form of missions.
I and many others believe that fixing FW plexing could provide something that eve sorely lacks. A whole new method of warfare that focuses on small gang pvp.
I enter plexes almost every time I pvp. I just move away from the rats so they don't kill my tank and wait for other players to come in. Some of the best fights I ever had were in or right outside often both.
I think people discuss occupancy plexing so much because its easy to see how great it could be for eve. It definitely deserves its own podcast where the pros and cons can be considered for the players.
Hirana Yoshida,
There are considerable disagreements in how the plexing mechanic should change. Some want npcs to play a larger role (e.g. be tougher and require plexers to blow them all up) and others want plexing to involve less pve (no npcs at all and let militias know when a plex is entered so they can defend them player versus player.) Should the war front be spread out or more narrow? (If they are spread out you may be able to do them solo. Some want this. Others donÆt. If they are close it may lead to blobs. Some want this. Some donÆt.)
If you look at the list of proposals you will find only a few that everyone agrees on. E.g., everyone agrees plexes shouldnÆt mainly spawn at noon in London, and that if there are going to be npcs they should attack the enemy. But these changes alone wonÆt really make plexing worthwhile.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Thread has devolved into plexing mechanic discussion - again - even though the most people who have participated in FW from the beginning hardly ever plexed.
Keep those guys in this thread who walked down that path off the discussion panel! (including me :D )
While I agree FW is 2 worlds(at least). There are those who just accept a large wardec and there are those who actually try (tried) to engage the actual fw mechanics. The way this conversation went proves that many (including myself) view occupancy plexing as important, if not the foundation of fw.
And Hirana's post demonstrates it is horribly in need of fixing. When Players themselves are policing game mechanics that are so stupid everyone except ccp thinks they are exploitive (if not technically exploits) the game designers should get a clue.
But even before these new ways of exploiting occupancy plexing were used systematically, occuppancy plexing still had problems. Mainly it had very little to do with the players warring against players. It was always mainly players warring against npcs/red crosses.
This is why I think 2 podcasts would be best. 1 would give the basics, and how fw can be an enjoyable part of the game as is. The second would be a disscussion of how the foundational mechanic of occupancy plexing can be fixed.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:21:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Cearain on 25/08/2011 18:22:16
Originally by: Nitro DSP
It is true that FW is PvP, plexes, and missions (with PvP being the most important aspect IMO) but if plexes are so important, why not make them worth something (like isk or direct LP gain) to display the importance?
I think that is a great question. Adding to the reward of doing plexes is something that has been proposed and is definitely worth discussing. But I think there is much more to it.
I think ccp didn't make them worth that much at first because they viewed plexing as sort of the meta goal - it was an end in itself. Most players seemed to agree - at first. You join fw in order to gain territory for your faction.
So you get isk so you can fight. You fight in order to get territory for your faction. You get territory for your faction because that was intended as one of many ultimate goals in this sandbox. If you win all the territory for your faction that was a worthy accomplishment!
Why did this goal fail to motivate people? Well it did motivate people at first. Even though there was no reward to getting the occupancy (it was an end in itself).
I would argue that people stopped not so much because they didn't get enough isk from the activity but instead because the activity itself was viewed as having little merit.
People saw that this occupancy plexing was optimally done by doing pve and avoiding fights. Ank would post about how she did like 100 plexes without a single pvp kill!
Well people in new eden do not value good pve skills. Hence gaining territory was no longer was viewed as an accomplishment to be proud of. That is why we have a pvp alliance tournament instead of one to see who can speed tank the most red crosses.
I would say that people would still participate in the alliance tournament even if ccp did not pay out large prizes. (assuming the cost of entry was also removed - but not the cost of ships lost.) Why? Because winning the alliance tournament is seen as a worthy accomplishment.
Now I am fairly sure that CCP can make occupancy plexing into something that people feel has merit. How? Make it involve allot of small scale pvp that is rich in tactics and dependent on the skill and intelligence of the pilots involved.
If they do this I am sure people will start to do it again. And people will find another worthy goal to achieve in this sandbox.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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