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How can being on csm *not* give an in game advantage?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 01:35:00 - [1] The minutes from the last csm summit took a very long time to get published because they had to double check for nda stuff. How is it even possible that certain null sec alliance know more about the upcoming changes than everyone else, yet this isn't an advantage? I mean sure the csm may not know with certainty what ccp is going to do, but they know allot better than everyone else. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 02:30:00 - [2] Originally by: Tippia Because the last guy who tried to take advantage of his NDA knowledge was thrown out, banned, roflstomped, and got his balls put in a viceà Well 1) he did the action directly not have an alliance mate do it for him or even just give instuctions to his alliance. 2) he was at least honest enough to admit it. Lets say they would have another anomoly nerf. Certain alliances just didn't upgrade them. Well what could possibly happen? The alliances that are upgrading are not acting optimally. Those with the inside scoop are acting optimally. What is going to possibly get nerfed and what definitely won't get nerfed. Of the players the csm knows best. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 03:35:00 - [3] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Originally by: Cearain What is going to possibly get nerfed and what definitely won't get nerfed. Of the players the csm knows best. Actually, the CCP developers themselves know best. Newsflash, they play EVE too. Ok so they know best but csm still has and advantage over every other alliance leader. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 04:10:00 - [4] Well they are doing more of a balance release in winter than with dominion. But here is the thing: Would you rather A) Run an alliance with all the information in the nda about the null sec winter release or B) Run an alliance without all the information in the nda about null sec winter release? Not a very hard question to answer is it? -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 13:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Imagine being CSM with prior knowledge about what CCP was planning on doing NPC sold consumer products around the Tyrannis expansion. Please point out how that knowledge would be an advantage, not a disadvantage. Basically everyone with a brain got stinking rich, and if the CSM had known more (such as to fall under NDA) they wouldn't personally have been able to profit from it despite how obvious the ramifications were of PI. Once its public knowledge then csm can act on it like every other player. So being on csm and knowing the nda material is never a disadvantage. But your point is a good one because they will likely have knowledge like this that players don't have. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 13:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Kogh Ayon Originally by: Cearain Well they are doing more of a balance release in winter than with dominion. But here is the thing: Would you rather A) Run an alliance with all the information in the nda about the null sec winter release or B) Run an alliance without all the information in the nda about null sec winter release? Not a very hard question to answer is it? Obviously, as far as being a CSM could get access to the information which is not available to ordinary players, then there will have these advantages. Solution? No information being hided from CCP or CSM. or No CSM. or Let's find out that people whining about this are just minimum that we do not really have to care IMO CSM seems to have very little good impact on the game to warrant any unfair treatment to certain players. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:05:00 - [7] Originally by: CCP Xhagen .... And the CSM is adamant on upholding the NDA - on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything.... ...But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. .... Thanks for the response. But this is very little help. You say you monitor them, but they can talk out of game. Plus many things would be very hard to identify as a specific fraud. I realize one csm in the past got drunk and purchased billions of isk worth of something. That was a pretty blatant misuse of information. But not everyone will be so obvious. @ the first quoted sentence: The fact that CSM is adamant in keeping what they know from the rest of the players is actually not helpful to this particular concern. Sure they want to be the only ones with information. That is how they get the advantage. If they publicly released what they knew they would blow any advantage they had. @ the second quoted sentence: You know mittani explicitly said he isn't there to make the game better for all players, just those who elected him. Goons. Although I will agree Mittani is generally not to be trusted, I think I believe him on this. He has said numerous times he doesn't care about many different groups opinions. So I think you may misunderstand why people are running for csm. I am not reassured that you get along so well with certain people who I don't trust a bit. And it seems ccp is specifically marketing eve to people who would like to put up false pretenses in order to cheat others. So I'm not sure csm is a good match for the game. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:12:00 - [8] BTW I don't think the only alternative is to scrap the csm. (Although that would be the better alternative than the current situation) I think you can have the csm but just don't give nda information to them. After all how can the csm represent players views on things that the players don't even know about anyway? This would also have the advantage of making the dialogues between csm and ccp transparent to the players. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Barakkus The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. The issue is not that csm can sway ccp. (although since csm has such a limitted effect there isn't much to counterbalance giving certain players better information about future game mechanics) The problem is that they know more about what ccp is going to do and can plan accordingly. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:17:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Xhagen Originally by: Mag's Originally by: CCP Xhagen But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. Did you keep a straight face when you typed that? Sure did. Ask anyone, I'm the straight-face type. ..... When I'm proven wrong, I will have to readjust my stance. You claimed that CSM members ran to make EVE better for all parties. If I showed you a quote from Mittani where he specifically says he is not there for all players just those who elected him, would you admit you were proven wrong and readjust your stance? Abuse of NDA material is almost impossible to prove. (note: I said "abuse of nda material" not "release of that material" proving they released the nda material can be fairly easy to prove, but that has nothing to do with the concern I mention) Unless the person is very blatant and admits it like Larkonis, you are going to have a very hard time proving someone abused nda material. Lets say a CSM alliance leader was planning on upgrading all his sov systems to do X. Many other alliances are doing this because it seems to make the most sense. Then he meets with CCP and finds out that X is going to get nerfed and it would clearly be optimal not to take that course of action. Now do you think the CSM alliance leader will continue with his plans to upgrade the soon to be nerfed aspect? If he decides not to upgrade based on his new information how are you going to catch him and prove it? These sorts of advantages can't really be caught. To be honest as a player it would be hard to separate out what you learn ccp will do and pretend you never heard it. I really doubt all of the csm members do that. I mean he won't announce to his alliance ûô based on what I learned and was covered by the nda we are no longer going to upgrade x. ô He will just say I want to upgrade these other options. How would you be able to prove any sort of breach of the nda? I'm glad you believe no one on the current csm would ever be dishonest or abuse information. But I am not likeminded. CCP explicitly advertises for people who want to screw others over based false pretenses. And I think they are somewhat successful at getting those sorts of people. (Of course, the next ad tells everyone they should be social and make friends through eve which is somewhat contradictory.) As for me I think CSM can do their job representing players without gaining information about future changes that no other player receives. The argument that they are some sort of focus group for new Ideas is a poor one. Whatever csm is, they are not typical eve players û so they would make for a poor focus group. @ Mendolus: you don't get it. Its not about CSM persuading CCP about anything. Its the fact that they know inside information about what is going ot happen in the future in a game where economic predictions are important. The NDA is all but impossible to enforce in any but the most obvious cases of abuse. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Mendolus ....What do you want? .... CCP views the CSM as an acceptable risk, nothing you say, think, or do is going to change this..... You make it sound like CCP is completely immune to logic. What I want is for CCP to consider what benefit they receive from csm by giving them an unfair advantage. You can still have a csm that would recomend fixing rockets and adding the training q without giving them the unfair advantage of nda information over other players. The points I have made remain undisputed: 1)CSM can't possibly know what players think about nda material because the players haven't even heard of it let alone commented on it. So csm won't represent players with respect to that anyway. 2)Players can't make educated choices about who will be on csm because so much of the discussion lately seems to be over nda material. So the elections which are already a joke are even more problematic. 3) The chair of the csm has said the exact opposite of what CCP Xhaggen claimed for a reason people run for csm. So CCP is obviously unable to correctly guage what is going on. 4) In all the time that csm has had access to this nda material not one example of a benefit to the game has been raised. The claims to fame as to what csm has accomplished have almost always been things that players knew about and wanted changed. Training q. Rockets etc. 5) It would be very very hard to detect if nda information is being abused by the players on the csm. 6) I and several others think CCP Xhaggen is crazy to claim they don't think anyone is on csm for personal gain. Since the NDA is almost impossible to police its all just scouts honor. My hunch would be nda info is being abused which is a real detriment to the game. In the end there is no reason to take risks with the integrity of the game by giving certain players advantageous information that the others do not have. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 19:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Feligast Points 1 and 4 are completely contradictory, therefore I can obviously safely ignore you. You don't know what a contradiction is, so I can safely ignore you. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Issler Dainze So as someone that was in the CSM twice I think I can provide some useful information. A lot of what you learn in the CSM is about changes in the Eve that "might happen someday" but even if they do they will be far off and quite difference once they are implemented. Once in a while there is notice of a more immediate change like the one that got a CSM booted for "inside trading" but taking advantage of those sorts of things would be short term at best and risk ejection from the CSM..... I think this seems to be somewhat true. I mean for example with the release of dominion the ideas would have been large scale changes and it would be hard to anticipate what this would mean in a concrete way even if it were explained in detail. (which it probably wasn't) However the next expansion doesn't seem like one that will change the overall sov system, but instead just sort of balance and tweak it. The core system is in place and won't change. They will just nerf or buff or eliminate certain things within a known system. That is the sort of information that can give an advantage. Its unclear to me how much the devs have been communicating with csm about these changes. But I think the less the better and not at all is best. My view is let csm represent the players. Not have the csm be a select group of players that are given advantageous in game information with a scouts honor not to abuse it. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Speaking from personal experience, being on CSM often constrains your freedom to exploit public information, out of concern that it might appear you are acting on inside information. In other words, CCP has publicly said X, and CSM knows X+Y. Just knowing X, a smart person could deduce that stockpiling A would be a good idea. Knowing X+Y makes it even more likely it's a smart move. So now I can't buy A, because that might be perceived as insider trading. Being on CSM has certainly cost me a billion here and a billion there... feel free to send me some ISK ingame to make it up to me. What you say proves that CSM receives information that can greatly benefit them in game. You of course, claim that you have been honest and never abused that information. Whether or not I accept your claim is really irrelevant. I don't trust all the csm members as much as you. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Barakkus The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. The issue is not that csm can sway ccp. (although since csm has such a limitted effect there isn't much to counterbalance giving certain players better information about future game mechanics) The problem is that they know more about what ccp is going to do and can plan accordingly. I was commenting on this part: Quote: @ the second quoted sentence: You know mittani explicitly said he isn't there to make the game better for all players, just those who elected him. Goons. Although I will agree Mittani is generally not to be trusted, I think I believe him on this. He has said numerous times he doesn't care about many different groups opinions. So I think you may misunderstand why people are running for csm. Mittani is about as useful for making eve better for goons as a wet paper bag would be. Well if he knows what sorts of changes will happen in the winter null sec expansion, I would say he would be pretty valuable to any alliance. But I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: Empy Ralt Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage. Sounds about right. Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:35:00 - [17] Edited by: Cearain on 17/08/2011 20:40:22 Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 17/08/2011 20:28:48 Originally by: Barakkus You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA. Think his rose-tinted glasses are interfering with his ability to realize almost every game developer has closed beta testing or interaction with past, present, or future subscribers in order to get player feedback on game content prior to it being released and certainly with the notion that said content may be altered based on feedback, all which is covered by an NDA that may or may not ever get lifted. But, I am sure he will argue this is not the case somehow. He seems bent on purporting that the CSM is an impossibly corrupt enterprise that cannot ever have redeeming value unless they use a system he personally finds legitimate and which guarantees corruption is impossible. I would like to have a system like this in real life, so if someone ever comes up with one, please let me know. Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: Empy Ralt Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage. Sounds about right. Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. You are an exceptionally paranoid individual it seems. There are always to abuse the system, every system, every minute, of every day. Asking for a hundred percent guarantee that this will not happen is... uhm, rather naive. No offense intended, it just is. There is a difference between asking a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and telling them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information. CCP can ask players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda. And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point. I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 21:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between asking a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and telling them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information. CCP can ask players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda. And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point. I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc. I assume you've never been in a closed beta before for an MMO. There's a buttload you get to find out well in advance of even the regular beta testers that come in later on. I ended up getting in on every EverQuest 2 expansion up until the last two they put out, well before the regular beta test crowd gets in. Lots of NDA stuff to deal with, and usually 6 or 7 months in advance of release date. It's common practice...CCP probably keep a better eye on their NDA people than most companies do. There is very little to be concerned with about the CSM or whatever as a player honestly. It's not like this is secret stuff that will never hit the game like some secret government weapon or whatever... You probably do not know that most "NDA stuff" is not there to protect other players but to protect the game designers from having their game ripped off. It is these different purposes of the "NDA stuff" that you seem not to fully grasp. But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 21:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. Trust me, if I find out Mittens has broken the NDA, first I'll blackmail him, and then I'll rat him out. And I know he'd do the same to me. This is EVE, after all. Trust me if I find out I will report it too. Of course, we have no chance of finding that out. So our assurances are meaningless. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.18 03:52:00 - [20] Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Cearain But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm. Just because everyone thinks you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're not. Most people posting are not claiming I am paranoid. Of the posters who do not share my concern the views seem to be: Some say I'm jealous that others get to do insider trading. Others say I should run so I can do the insider trading myself. Others say thats life - lots of things are unfair. But very few are saying they have faith that all the csm members aren't abusing this information and calling me paranoid for thinking it may be happening. In fact when xhaggen took that line many posters thought he was a bit nanve. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1

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