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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 04:42:00 -
[1]
The bot I'm talking about is included e.g. in EVE Mentat.
How it works:
1) start EVE Mentat and its IGB addon
2) open the local webpage created by EVE Mentat in IGB and click single button to start the bot
3) bot goes through all the items you are trading with and exports local market orders for each item. This can take hours and thousands of clicks, but bot does all the work while you can leave the computer and come back later.
4) you can now use all the exported data in EVE Mentat to analyze it.
I've heard that this bot is used by other trading programs also, and I've seen claims that GMs have said it is allowed.
Is it really true that CCP allows some bots while disallowing others?
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 05:01:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: daddys helper
are you serious?
its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API
it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market.
all it can do is pull data from eve.
please delete this post and biomass your character
So you dont understand the importance of data mining?
This particular info (local market orders) can't be exported via API, and is extremely important for market analysing.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 06:06:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports.
That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours.
If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 06:13:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Its not a bot its a tool for data mining. It just simplifies the process. Same way the Evemon will calculate the best training path or attributes. The program doesn't actually automate the trading process itself.
Evemon cant tell you when someone makes better order than your order. This bot can.
Just think about it:
You start this bot with appropriate external application and leave it running. When someone makes better order than what you have, you get email/SMS notification to your cellphone and then you come to your computer, update your order, and leave bot running while you do something else.
You could be doing whatever you want, just as long as you have quick access to your computer which runs EVE, to update orders whenever you get notification that order needs updating.
This is completely different what traders normally needs to do, i.e. manually be present on computer and check for competitors updating their orders.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 06:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Monstress
Originally by: Thart
It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders.
Hah, that's awesome. Thanks for clearing that up :)
Hey, dont get any ideas... This botting needs to be banned, not exploited. 
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 07:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Thart
malaire, do you use market aggregation services such as EVE-central and others?
Most of them along with cache reading tool use web-based continuos scanners. They will not work properly without such functionality.
From the other side I guess the real trade bots are written with more complex technologies, and java script based market browsing makes a really small contribution to the whole system.
I think you have started your protest from the wrong side :)
Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 07:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: RaTTuS
if in doubt - petition it
As I mentioned in OP, I've seen claims that this has been petitioned and GMs have approved this - but just to be sure I did make a petition.
If this is allowed, then I'm going to make proof-of-concept bot which does automatic notifications, to make it clear how stupid it is to allow this.
And if this has never been allowed, then according to rules, creator of e.g. EVE Mentat and all other programs using this exploit should be permabanned, and all users of such programs should get at least 14 day ban (including me, since I did test EVE Mentat shortly).
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 07:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: dexington
Nothing illegal in reading the cache files.
Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 08:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Elanor Gaiser
Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data.
And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed.
Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.)
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 08:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Thart
Originally by: malaire
Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it.
Some technologies cannot be supressed.
Breaking a small (and useful for most players!) part of them doesn't make sense.
There are reasons for EVE being divided into several regions, and that you can't see market orders for other regions than your local region.
In my opinion automated market aggregation sites do not belong to EVE.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:17:00 -
[11]
Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 11:23:44
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena
If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal.
If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal.
This does "automate actions that you normally do manually", i.e. checking details of market items.
However it doesn't need to simulate clicks since javascript API provides function for showing market details of an item. Also it doesn't need to click "Export". Just opening the details-tab for item puts that information into cache where it can be read by external program.
That javascript API is usefull for things like this:http://evref.com/?more-powergrid (Those green-triangle links use same javascript command than what EVE Mentat uses, but EVE Mentat uses that in a loop, repeatedly.)
edit: better explanation
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena
i said:
"automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client"
As far as i know you can also use bots or spreadsheets or java or whatever you want with the API results or exported market data.
If you start using bots interacting in the game client itself then it's illegal.
Exactly. Javascript API works in IGB in the EVE Online client.
Normal API calls (which you can use outside the client) doesn't allow access to local market orders.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Thornat
Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal.
API does NOT provide that data.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 14:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: daddys helper
so after reading this thread I now understand.
OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair.
the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway.
Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kaomond
Originally by: malaire
Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
To be honest that's a bit like owning a convenience store and complaining that the bigger chains are unfair competition because they can order their stock online, the fact that you have equal oportunity to use the same system they do is kind of the defiinition of fair.
Actually, its just the opposite. I'm programmer also, and I could easily take advantage of this javascript-botting. But that feels like unfair advantage, since other traders can't take advantage of it. At least I don't know of any good trading program.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:36:00 -
[16]
Edited by: malaire on 19/08/2011 12:38:38
Originally by: Marchocias
Third, you can't really call it a "program" when both the following are true:
a) it is clearly a script running in an interpreter (the interpreter being CCPs program)
b) it has no descision making logic, other than some very basic flow control which simply iterates through the list of orders (eg, the order of the functional operations which it calls are completely deterministic... it will do exactly the same thing a bunch of times in order).
Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution. (Well this is true for javascript generally, I have not tested how much IGB supports, and I wont unless CCP says it's OK.)
Or are you saying that what EVE Mentat does is OK because that javascript is so simple, but more sophisticated javascripts might not be OK?
edit: typo
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Marchocias
Specifically:
It gives you no items.
It gives you no currency.
It gives you no objects.
It gives you no character attributes.
It gives you no rank (whatever that even means)
It does not change your status.
It performs no actual action on your behalf, benefical or otherwise.
Therefore, in my opinion, its legit.
It gives you information. And in trading that is really valuable.
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: malaire
Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution.
He clearly makes the point that javascript COULD be used to create bots. The implication is that this is a reason to ban Mentat. My irrefutable point, is that IF this is a reason to ban Mentat then it is also a reason to ban anything using javascript in the IGB.
I didn't mean to imply that. I wasn't talking about EVE Mentat there, but what might be possible to do. Still, if EVE Mentat is OK because it only uses simple javascript in IGB, but some other program using more sophisticated javascript would not be OK, then where do you draw the line?
Personally I think javascript API calls should not work in automated scripts. Maybe javascript API calls should work only e.g. max 10 seconds after last user interaction. In this way simple javascript API links would work, but exporting market data into cache while user is AFK would not work.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: dexington
You can't create a eve bot using java script, the in-game browser allows you to open windows with arguments. The reason it's useful for Mentat, is because opening the market windows and loading the market data for a specific item is going to refresh the local cache files. You can add all the items you are selling to the quick menu and do the same by hand in minutes, it's really not a huge deal.
You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel
The same is true for the possibility to loop the javacode. It takes out a tedious part of gathering data (you would have to click each of your items manually in your shortlist to display market orders and let it be written to cache, and while you could prolly do it faster than the Javascript can, nobody wants to do that 10 times a day) and let's you get to the actual gameplay of trading: deciding how you are going to act on this information.
It does NOT set up orders for you, nor does it update them, it does not make decissions for you, it just gathers data that is available to you anyway but without turning it into a clickfest (a clickfest is NOT gameplay for the trading part of the game).
By this same logic "travel bot", which does same as autopilot but which warps to 0m, would also be allowed. Since it only takes away the tedious part of travelling, removing clickfest which is not part of actual gameplay and what nobody would want to do 10 times a day, and so on....
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel
Originally by: malaire
You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files.
And that would help you how exactly? If you're not present, you can't act on the information... 
You didn't read my earlier posts?
External program could be reading those cache files continually, and when it detects that my order isn't best anymore, it can then send email/SMS notification to my cellphone, so I can come to computer for a moment to update my order, and then continue whatever I was doing away from computer.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: malaire
External program could be reading those cache files continually, and when it detects that my order isn't best anymore, it can then send email/SMS notification to my cellphone, so I can come to computer for a moment to update my order, and then continue whatever I was doing away from computer.
Which still requires you to make the descisions to act on the market change.
This is something EveMon and other accepted programs already do, and they're not banned.
EveMon does NOT say when your order isn't best anymore, since that information is not available from API.
To actually act on the market change, is in some cases less than 50% of the work required. For some items which are not updated often, actually checking competitors orders is the bigger part, and this is exacly what javascript-bot can automate.
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: malaire
You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files.
That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window.
What then is bot by your defition?
If someone implements travel bot as simple loop (using external program to handle clicking), would you say that it is not bot since it is simple loop?
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: malaire
You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files.
That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window.
To give better counter for this:
Let's say I implement this kind of javascript-bot/external application combination:
1. (external app) Make list of 10 most important items I'm trading in.
2. (IGB javascript) Load that list and open market details for each item
3. (external app) Load market info from cache, if any item needs my attention send SMS.
4. (external app) Make list of 10 items I should check next, based on collected data of competitors actions (who updates their orders most often, who updates their orders at this time of day generally, etc..)
5. (IGB javascript) Load that list and open market details for each item
6. (external app) Load market info from cache, if any item needs my attention send SMS.
7. (external app) Make list items to check next, based on any criteria I want ....
Yes, the IGB javascript part is simple loop. But it would be combined with external application which does all the hard work, and the combination is not simple loop anymore, but sophisticated notification bot.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:36:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Quetazal
I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them?
If having external access to all local market orders is legitimate feature, then why doesn't API offer this information?
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Monstress
It's justified by the fact that in the end, you're the one who has to sit in front of your keyboard and manually update the order. So whether or not you choose to use the freely available information to your advantage is up to you, but as long as you're manually updating your orders, no harm done.
If I get such answer from CCP, then you can be sure that I will implement such notification app for my private use.
I would really love to keep EVE minimized whole day while I work on other things, only needing to switch to EVE for a moment at the very moment any competitor updates their price to be better than mine. Ultimate "play EVE while working" solution for trader (who trades in items which doesnt need constant attention.)
I do not know any such application yet, so having one for my private use would feel a bit bad because of the advantage. But if CCP says yes, I would at least make that information public, so others could start developing their own apps, and I'm sure in time some would become free to use for all who want.
But I still hope CCP says this is not allowed.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Mentat still reads the CACHE FILES, which is supposedly NOT ALLOWED.
Actually, that is allowed.
See http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1190021
Creator of that specifically got permission from CCP to publish it.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: dexington
1) It's not illegal to make a loop the loops your market orders.
2) It's not illegal to read the cache files.
Why would it be illegal to combine 1 and 2 and make good use if the data you collect?
I think that part 1 should be illegal. Maybe even part 2.
Also I don't believe that combination is OK before I see CCP answer for that.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Marchocias
I guess everythings pretty much been said.
All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling.
Yep. I already started repeating myself in this thread.
So waiting for devblog and answer to my petition.
Also, I didn't know about "Eve001Tool".
500M ISK registration cost 
Maybe I need to stop trading and start selling programs for traders 
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel
Originally by: Marchocias
I guess everythings pretty much been said.
All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling.
Since they already aproved of EVE001tool (now no longer developed) I doubt they will rule against EVEmentat. 
I'm not interested about EVEmentat specifically (it doesn't even do what I've suggested could be possible), but general answer whether this kind of IGB javascript + cache reading external application combination can be used for its full potential or not.
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