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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.20 01:39:00 -
[1]
OP you are correct. Small gang pvp does not need to be harder it needs a buff. Removing local will just boost blobbing.
Yes for people who look for good small scale pvp local is very important.
This thread will soon fill up with people who cry every time they show up in their blob and no one comes to fight them. They want local gone so they have a better chance to blob others.
This thread will also fill up with people who's only idea of pvp is ganking pve ships and industrials.
People who say the scanner should automatically update are really just asking for a form of local. But it would still be a boost to blobs because by the time they show up on the scanner they are already in warp about to land on you.
Also its important to know if the other ships are hostile. Otherwise you will spend your time trying to scan someone down just to find out they are friendly. ffs.
The removal of local will definitely be aother huge hit to small scale pvp. Anyone who disagrees just doesn't know what they are talking about or pefer blobs and ganks.
Ok now we can go back to the cool stories "this one time I went into a system with only a few guys and everyone docked up!" Well guys maybe they were in mining barges or maybe they were doing pve and didn't have a point fit on their ships. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.21 16:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cearain on 21/08/2011 16:55:36
Originally by: Tippia And again, yes you can, just prep your area and/or fly with due amount of caution. .
Yep you'll need more work for pvp. And you'll need more caution. There is already too much of both in eve as it is.
No local will really make eve a horribly stupid game. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.21 16:59:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ikonz where does it say that they want to remove local?
In the csm minutes they said something about not having it due to incarna. They say they will replace it with something similar.
Its hard to see how this won't be a boost to blobbing. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Corvus Dove Yes, you can point out that's PvCB. Yes, it is, and yes, it was fun. It was also fun when a victim turned out to be bait and you found yourself running like hell. The lack of local works both ways, it just means both sides have to think a little more. Any argument against thinking, imho, is an argument in favor of ignorance.
As you take away intel there is less thinking involved and more luck. Those who want to take away local are those in favor of ignorance.
When you see local you may have noticed the same person there from 50 minutes ago. Hence he is likely docked up and not there with the new person you see on scan. Of course with no local none of this intel would be available so every fight will just be a coin toss.
What is the only way to increase your chances in this new game with less intel? Get the biggest blob you can.
Flipping a coin and guessing heads or tails doesn't take much thought. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 19:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove Yes, you can point out that's PvCB. Yes, it is, and yes, it was fun. It was also fun when a victim turned out to be bait and you found yourself running like hell. The lack of local works both ways, it just means both sides have to think a little more. Any argument against thinking, imho, is an argument in favor of ignorance.
As you take away intel there is less thinking involved and more luck. Those who want to take away local are those in favor of ignorance.
I agree with the first statement somewhat, less with the second. There is nothing Intel does now that having a dude in an Anathema cloaked in a safespot can't do, other than make the intel effortless to receive, and therein lies the issue. The only exception would be cloaking devices, but they have their own cluster of nerfs that prevent them from being a win button.
Well you need an extra person to sit in that anathema don't you? So pvp is requiring more people.
Also not all "effort" equals good game play. Probing and having to hit the dscan button every 2 seconds is not really good gameplay. Those things are just a pain in the neck that local helps solve.
Its all really hard to find any sort of quality pvp in eve. The last thing we need is to boost the amount of effort needed. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.24 19:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Cearain
What is the only way to increase your chances in this new game with less intel? Get the biggest blob you can.
This is true regardless of intel. The bigger the fleet, the more DPS/Logi/ECM you have. However, our engagements against superior numbers (ATLAS and Cascade Imminent being "us") in Delve and Querious actually prove that fleet size matters less than fleet composition and competent FC's. In nearly all of these engagements, the intel had less to do with local and a lot more to do with having a cloaked scout in position observing the enemy, and bringing the right tools for the job. Your point simply doesn't exist in the real world.
Actually unlike in eve with no local real armies often have to be stationed at different places and that leads to smaller battles. Eve with no local you will just get every single soldier into one huge army are go blobbing.
Yes eve is already like that now to some extent. The question is do we want to make that even more the case. Thanks to local smaller groups can attack others and have decent smaller fights. Now when you see a ship there and want to attack you will have no way to tell if there are 50 of his friends cloaked right there on grid. It's just stupid. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 19:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
There will always be a degree of luck involved. That's part of the point. Every time you go through a gate without a scout you flip a coin anyway. Local's presence doesn't change any of that. But neither should a chat channel be used as a method to tell whether or not you should flip the coin in advance. That's not intel, that's saying you won't flip it unless it's double-headed and you get to be heads.
Yes it will effect your chances. There is calculated risk and there is dumb luck risk. No local will make more pvp into "dumb luck risk" catagory.
There is already plenty of risk in doing small gang and solo pvp. Local gives you some chance not to get blobbed every time. But you will still get blobbed plenty of times. If you haven't tried it, you should. You will see there is already plenty of risk doing solo or small gang pvp. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.24 20:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Corvus Dove ....Yes, you'll need that extra person. ...
Yep forget about solo pvp.
I and many others often don't have time to wait around for fleets to form. We jsut get in a ship and roam around. No local will pretty much make this game an unplayable pia for us.
Also your whole post is just assuming pvcb. All this talk of hunting deer. There is other pvp.
No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 13:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Rhinanna Or perhaps because they nerfed them and they aren't accurate anymore?
But yeah, keep making huge assumptions without checking please ;)
They did nerf them, to make them no longer real-time accurate, to counter blobbing and reduce server load.
Thus the "last hour" bit. They still function, but you have to use your brain. Is that 100 man fleet that was there an hour ago still there? Well, how many kills happened in the last 30 minutes....oh....so they might be, they might not be....
And here's where calculated risk enters the equation. Not dumb luck as has been suggested.
I fail to see how kills in the last hour helps a solo pvper.
I have never been in a fleet that sat in the same system for longer than probably 30 minutes (other than where we were forming up)
Now for killing carebears perhaps looking at npcs killed in the last hour is helpful.
Otherwise going into the buggy map interface is not worth it.
Also its been mentioned before gate camping will get a boost from this. Your logic that "they won't have to gate camp" is not well taken. Nobody has to gate camp now. People gate camp because it involves the least amount of risk.
If there is no local all other pvp will involve much more risk and gate camping only slightly more risk. In other words gate camping will be even more attractive.
But yeah all pvp will involve more risk that you can't mitigate other than blobbing up. This will make pvp even more based on dumb luck and uninviting to a risk averse playerbase. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 13:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove ....Yes, you'll need that extra person. ...
Yep forget about solo pvp.
I and many others often don't have time to wait around for fleets to form. We jsut get in a ship and roam around. No local will pretty much make this game an unplayable pia for us.
Also your whole post is just assuming pvcb. All this talk of hunting deer. There is other pvp.
No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
I was speaking from my perspective pre-autojoin yes. But it doesn't just apply there. Clearly you ignored everything else I said.
I was just picking out something we can both agree on. You won't be able to go solo anymore.
I did read the rest of your post and explained your longwinded analogy of deer and hunter applies to pvcb not pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Saladin Boneslash
Originally by: Cearain No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
The one place in EvE with no local right now is w-space. And we all know that pvp in w-space is mostly blobs, right? Very little solo and small gang pvp there, for sure.
The only thing we know is there is very little pvp there at all. We know this from the QEN's.
If we move away from the facts and into speculation. I would bet a much larger percent of the "pvp" in wormholes actually involves "pvcb" than in null or low sec.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:33:00 -
[12]
I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 25/08/2011 17:30:32
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Saladin Boneslash
Originally by: Cearain No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
The one place in EvE with no local right now is w-space. And we all know that pvp in w-space is mostly blobs, right? Very little solo and small gang pvp there, for sure.
The only thing we know is there is very little pvp there at all. We know this from the QEN's.
If we move away from the facts and into speculation. I would bet a much larger percent of the "pvp" in wormholes actually involves "pvcb" than in null or low sec.
I think as someone pointed out elsewhere, there is a healthy amount of PvP in wormholes per capita.
If this is true....
Its not true. Here are the facts based on the QENs:
Here is the third quater distribution according to the 4th quater report of population (page 10) and the 3rd quarter report of kills per part of eve.http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf (page 9):
low sec: 6.95% of the population but accounts for 29% of all the kills Null sec: 11.07 of the population and accounts for 51% of the kills wh 2.42% of the population and accounts for only 4% of the kills.
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
-Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
It depends, are we concerned with discrete points of data or continuous patterns of consistent warfare? .....
So I understand the numbers sure, but those numbers will not tell us whether there is more small to medium gang warfare in holes per capita compared to null sec. Need more data for that.
Low sec is pretty much all small gang pvp. It has well over 2xs as much pvp per capita as worm holes.
Like I said this is what we know. We can speculate beyond that but we shouldn't forget what we know. And we know that you can get over 2xs as much pvp per capita in low sec.
I would speculate that in worm holes allot of the lossmails have ships that are not fit for pvp. It's just people ganking pve ships and industrials so its really pvcb.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.26 14:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 14:08:53
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
That is one reason. But the worm holes are rigt there in many systems. Solo roamers and small gangs could easilly jump in and see whats happening and jump out.
But then there is the other problem. No local. Most pvp roamers (especially solo) don't want to have to waste a high slot to fit a probe launcher to their ship in order to simply see if anyone is even there. They don't want to waste time scanning down systems just to find out no one is even there.
Finding pvp is hard enough with local. Very few people on a pvp roam want the extra hassle of not having a local to tell them if anyone is even in the system.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.26 15:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Remove the numbers of kills that occur due to gate camps in low/null sec, recalculate then report back.
Wormhole PvP is something you go looking for, not waiting for defenseless ships to happen to come across your gate camp.
The percentage of kills due to gate camps without local will only go up. With local you can often avoid gate camps. With out it they are going to be a real pain.
I would bet a much higher percent of the kills in worm holes are p-v-cb. I dont think these are just as bad as gate camp ganks.
Like I said we can both speculate about the types of kills. But I would like those in the anti- local camp to answer these questions that I posed earlier in this thread and got no responses:
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.26 16:14:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 16:17:28 Signal11th
I typically don't use scouts.
And people will go to mega blobs for safety. But your other solution of having to roam even farther out to find fights is terrible.
Are you going to actually answer any of the questions I put to the anti-local camp? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 14:08:53
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
That is one reason. But the worm holes are rigt there in many systems. Solo roamers and small gangs could easilly jump in and see whats happening and jump out.
But then there is the other problem. No local. Most pvp roamers (especially solo) don't want to have to waste a high slot to fit a probe launcher to their ship in order to simply see if anyone is even there. They don't want to waste time scanning down systems just to find out no one is even there.
Finding pvp is hard enough with local. Very few people on a pvp roam want the extra hassle of not having a local to tell them if anyone is even in the system.
1st- You don't need a probe to see if someone is in system, just use your D-Scan (if the system is big warp to planets and D-Scan). This is even better because you don't want to alarm anyone by popping probes in space. First you D-Scan possible targets and narrow them down without being seen... then you use probes for the minimum time possible to avoid detection.
2nd- As you see by the above, if i want to find PVP i do it quietly, simply because PVP in EVE is rarely consensual, because this is not a consensual PVP game where you have arenas, where everyone PVPs without the risk of losing stuff (ships/modules).
Clearly you or don't know EVE or your urge to find PVP is a lie and what you really want is to avoid it. Because you CAN find PVP without local, but you CAN'T escape PVP without it
According to battleclinic you were on 118 killmails since 2005! If that is anything close to accurate you should not be telling people how to find fights quickly.
Warping to different celestials to use dscan just find out the system is empty (or worse just to find out you scanned down a friendly) is an even bigger waste of time.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:28:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Cearain on 29/08/2011 12:28:40
Originally by: Cearain I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
I see no anti-local people want to address the questions I ask in this post. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.29 17:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 29/08/2011 16:56:35
Originally by: Cearain
According to battleclinic you were on 118 killmails since 2005! If that is anything close to accurate you should not be telling people how to find fights quickly.
Warping to different celestials to use dscan just find out the system is empty (or worse just to find out you scanned down a friendly) is an even bigger waste of time.
Yes because killmails are everything in EVE.
I'm not saying they are everything. But they are an indication of how much you pvp or at least how successfull you are at finding fights.
If you barely have over 100 kills after 6 years of this game, I don't think you are the one to talk to about how to find pvp.
Getting your 1 kill per month is not the pace many want to go at. There are allot of people with a much better record of solo and small gang pvp telling you no local will adversely effect small gang and solo pvp. Why don't you listen to any of them?
Why don't you try to think through the questions I posted? -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 17:50:00 -
[21]
I'm not sure how much intelligence it takes to spam a d-scan button.
Imagine an iq test.
People set up a game where you sit there and click a button over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
At the end of this session the people giving the test ask the participant: How would you like to buy this game?
Now do you think the people who buy the game are going to have a higher iq than those who say no thanks?
Originally by: Ingvar Angst This happened Saturday. In the static C2 (had a high hole, was using it) and notice near the hole on DScan there's a ship. OK, I'm in my scanner on this char, drop combats and get it to 100%, it's a destroyer salvaging a combat site he ran apparently in a different ship. OK, fine... warp over to go look at him for lulz (warp to 100). Warp there and cloak... he still hasn't noticed me.
Okay... get on my combat alt, fly into the static and warp to 20 off this guy in my drake. He's still toodling along, salvaging like I'm not there. More . Warp to a wreck he's approaching (was over 150K away), target, tackle and start firing... finally he starts trying to get away.
This should never have happened. This was a pilot in from high sec so reliant on local that even with me visible on the overview he didn't realize I was there. This is why local needs to go... it's dragging the intelligence of the community way, way down.
-Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 18:09:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Cearain on 29/08/2011 18:10:07 Ingvar
I know how to use dscan. It can be useful in combination with local. I am not mocking people who use dscan. I am pointing out that creating the game to revolve around constantly clicking that button would make it a pretty mind numbing game to play. I doubt many intelligent people would care to play it.
Local does not spoon feed you all the intel you need. It does however at least let you know if 1) if there is a huge blob in the system and 2) if you are in a system with someone you *may* want to attack. It does not tell you what ship they are in or where in the system they are. It just tells you there is somone there.
That way you don't have to spend the time warping from belt to belt only to find the system is empty.
Like I said before there are people in eve who are actually looking to pvp against something other than an industrials or a destroyer with its high slots full of salvagers. For those players removing local will all but ruin the game.
Why don't you give the questions I asked earlier a shot? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Of course it spoon feeds you all the intel. You click on the guy in local, you have his corp, alliance, kill boards, etc. You get a ton of free intel simply by having his name. You can see if he regularly kills in blobs, showing he may be bait. You can see if he's an industrial carebear without a kill to his name.
How can you claim to know anything at all about the game if you don't know this?
You also over-emphasize DScan regarding the game. It wouldn't be the defining part of the game, simply one of the primary intel gathering tools there for you to use or not (at your peril). Blobs show up on it. Single ships show up on it. However, if you want the rest of the free intel, you'd need to get off your duff and go earn it. Simple as that.
Eh... what question are you refering to?
We just play the game differently. I almost never even bother to see what corp the guy is in so long as he is a target. I simply see if the ship he is flying is within my engagment envelope. If it is I try to find him. If its not I move to the next system.
Local does not give you his killboard. Its true, you can, if you are very risk adverse and have lots of time, see the person in local, open up a browser and surf over to the killboard to try to search and study his killboard if you wish. I almost never look them up on the kill boards. Its usually not worth the time and it is a distracting hassle.
Basically I'm willing to take some risks in this game and just have fun.
Just because someone flew in a blob last time they were out doesn't mean they are doing that now. From local I do start to recognize people and if they are always in a blob. So if I get blobbed a few times I learn that way. Doing that of course means you use your rl intelligence and memory and experience. Instead of a button to push and leave the rest to dumb luck.
Also Its not that people canĘt "cut it" in a wormhole. ItĘs just that they like to use their head when they pvp instead of just hoping their blob is bigger than the other guys blob. They also donĘt like to waste time scanning down empty systems.
Why are you ignoring the questions I put to the anti-local crowd?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Like I said... spoon-fed intel. You don't want to do anything fo rit....
I suppose you think I should have to push a button. Is that the price I should pay? That seems to be the big concern. Players in eve are not required to do enough button mashing.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Um... blobs in wormholes? Really? You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? .
The amount of force is relative. If you have 5 BCs against an assault frigate the AF was blobbed.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Dumb luck using DScan? You know it gives you all ships withing 14AU and you can use it to narrow down their location as well, right? You know, so you're not guessing what belt they're in using dumb luck? With local, you run around or run away. Without local, you hunt.
You should learn the game mechanics. Dscan does not show all ships within 14 au. It doesn't give you cloaked ships or ships that are cloaked due to jumping in from a gate.
Why must you pretend to tell everyone about how mechanics will boost or hurt pvp? I don't go in threads about industry and pretend to tell everyone what changes should be made there.
Also now I guess you can't answer the questions I posted for the anti-local group. I guess you want to pretend they aren't there. But it just makes you look bad. If you think about the questions I ask you will be able to tell no local will reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of blobbing in eve.
-Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:02:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Cearain on 30/08/2011 13:02:47
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
I suppose you think I should have to push a button. Is that the price I should pay? That seems to be the big concern. Players in eve are not required to do enough button mashing.
For intel? Yes, it should be actively acquired, not a free gift that allows you far too much knowledge for little to no effort.
Ok we are in a sci fi universe where we can travel faster than light but we have to constantly push a button for intel about what is in our system. Concord who runs the gates knows who is in the system and even if they have agressed before the timer is up but its impossible that they could share that info with other pilots??
No instead we have these ships with a big red button that you have to keep pushing in order to get any information about what is around you in space - constantly pushing that big red button. No one was ever even bright enough to put a rock on that big red button so that it would constantly stream information. Nope you have to keep pushing the button for intel. Does this make any sense to you?
Originally by: Cearain You should learn the game mechanics. Dscan does not show all ships within 14 au. It doesn't give you cloaked ships or ships that are cloaked due to jumping in from a gate.
Why must you pretend to tell everyone about how mechanics will boost or hurt pvp? I don't go in threads about industry and pretend to tell everyone what changes should be made there.
Also now I guess you can't answer the questions I posted for the anti-local group. I guess you want to pretend they aren't there. But it just makes you look bad. If you think about the questions I ask you will be able to tell no local will reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of blobbing in eve.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Of course it doesn't give you cloaked ships. They're cloaked. That's what cloaking does. Why should it give you cloaked ships? That's insane.
Then why did you say we see all ships within 14 au when we hit the dscan? We don't.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
As for your questions, I'm pretty sure I answered them at least once and was ignored, but for argument's sake if you'd repeat them I'll have yet another crack at it.
here they are again.
Originally by: Cearain I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:37:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst There's the problem. Your questions are based on assumptions you are presuming to be true. Those that disagree can't answer your questions because they're based on (what are seen as) falsehoods.
I numbered the two assumptions. Which one do you disagree with?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:28:00 -
[27]
Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Signal11th Edited by: Signal11th on 31/08/2011 14:48:43
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
Jesus mate you post the same stuff over and over and what I can see the only people coming up with ideas are the anti's. Humm I think I shall go for CSM on the platform of getting rid of local in 0.0 and giving Mittani a good kicking.
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Please though, another cool story about how you entered a system and the mining barges docked so you couldn't gank them. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Denial does not equate to disproof, btw.
The proof is in the thread. I asked you questions, and you avoid them. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:18:47
and you ignored mine. Have you, Cearain ever taken the time to be aware of what is coming into system? Or were you too busy farming and let someone else do it for you?
Already been disproven based on what, where? Certainly any wh resident has already proven these things to be correct.
As for the first question: it depends what you mean. I usually fly solo without a scout. I don't dual box pvp as that seems a real hassle. But I of course use my dscan to see what ships the people are in.
Second question: I use dscan when I pvp and when I pve in low sec.
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs. -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:32:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
Your questions are based on these assumptions. Assumption 1 is not true in and of itself. It's purely situational. If you're more aware of your surrounding, using the tools on hand for intel while engaging in your activities, you greatly reduce your risk of being blobbed. Assumption 2, same answer. Even carebear characters such as this one can avoid most unwelcomed PvP encounters simply by being aware and using the tools on hand. Questions based on these conditions being true are invalid.
OK so you disagree that removing local will generally increase the risk of pvp?
Unfortunately instead of saying you agree or disagree you just said "If you're more aware of your surrounding, using the tools on hand for intel while engaging in your activities, you greatly reduce your risk of being blobbed." Well ok we can both agree with that but that is beside the point.
You disagree with the second assumption? Is local not a usefull tool that carebears use to avoid being ganked? If it is then removing it will if not make pve more dangerous it will at least make it more difficult right? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:34:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:30:42
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
The only thing this proves is that wh residents got smart, and a vast number of idiots in null get themselves popped on a daily basis by NOT being smart and refusing to learn. Your statistics ignore player skill and adaptability which you argue against, and for that I truly feel sorry for you.
Oh I see the wormhole players are more intelligent and skilled than null sec players. Like I said the fact is there is less than half the pvp in wormholes per player than low sec and null sec the rest is just speculation and BS.
-Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Spumantii The risk in pvp is based entirely on how well you gather intel. If you can't then yes, it will be risky. If you already can gather intel then no, it will be easier, and pvp will happen more often and more dynamically.
It will be better for players in large fleets with lots of scouts. Small scale and solo pvp will have it really bad. -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 15:53:40
Cearain, as you ask question i will ask you this.
Given a pool that you need to answer for some study:
Dear 0.0 player. You use Local more often for...
A - Smack talk after a fight.
B - As an intel to look for PVP
C - As an intel tool to escape PVP
After 1000 queries which one would have more votes? (considering 100% of the answers were true)
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
And this has nothing to do with local... well it has... if there was Local in WH the kills would be reduced to even less. What makes for such low numbers is not the absence of local, BUT the need to scan several WH's out with 15 sigs each until you find possible targets, and you may not know but scanning is both boring and time consuming. Not to mention the 0.0 BLOB WARS where several hundred ships are destroyed in 10 minutes
I really don't know the answer to your first question. I think we can all speculate.
As for the second point I think there would be more pvp in wormholes if it had local because it would be much more like low sec and null sec.
But again this is speculation. The only fact is that there is less than half the pvp per player in no local wormholes than in low sec and null sec. -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
OK so you disagree that removing local will generally increase the risk of pvp?
Define risk. Do you mean the chance of PvP or the danger of engaging in PvP you were going to engage in anyhow? For the chance of PvP, it varies depending on the person. A person who's aware will have less chance in being jumped unaware simply because without local he needs to be hunted down and caught. A person less aware won't notice he's being hunted and will wind up a statistic.
Originally by: Cearain You disagree with the second assumption? Is local not a usefull tool that carebears use to avoid being ganked? If it is then removing it will if not make pve more dangerous it will at least make it more difficult right?
Removing it can make it more or less dangerous for the carebear depending on the carebear. If your blob enters a system and sees noone on dscan, that carebear ratting 30AU away has a much better chance of not being caught if the blob fails to actively check the whole system. If the blob checks properly and the carebear has learned to be aware, he still has a good chance to get away, and his heart will be poundign from the near-miss of seeing someone on dscan, warping to the station and seeing the blob on the way. If he's watching TV while mining and doesn't have a sudden group of people show up in local grabbing his attention, he's toast.
Risk = losing your ship from a pvp encounter you didn't want. Lets say eiher you were looking for pvp and ended up getting blobbed, or you were pve fit and not looking for pvp at all.
Risk would not include losing your ship to a pvp encounter you intentionally went for.
As for the second part if you are in a blob with no local don't you think someone will have a probe launcher? How long does it take to check an entire system if you have a probe launcher? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:32:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain As for the second point I think there would be more pvp in wormholes if it had local because it would be much more like low sec and null sec.
But again this is speculation. The only fact is that there is less than half the pvp per player in no local wormholes than in low sec and null sec.
You'd completely lose the "surprise!" PvP aspect... that jumping someone while they run a Sleeper site would be gone completely. You'd lose the rest simply because if someone jumped in your hole and saw they were outnumbered they'd leave, and if they jump in with a superior force you'd wait it out at your pos.
So no... local would effectively end most PvP in wormholes. Wormhole PvP is earned, actively sought and dependent on the awareness and wits of the players involved.
It might reduce the type of pvp you actually get in wormholes now. That is ganks where piloting skill makes no difference. But you would get allot more fun pvp that you see in low sec and null sec. -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
It might reduce the type of pvp you actually get in wormholes now. That is ganks where piloting skill makes no difference. But you would get allot more fun pvp that you see in low sec and null sec.
No, you wouldn't. You'd effectively eliminate it. It would solely be about who has more and who runs first. Local in wormholes would kill wormhole PvP. They'd turn into carebear dens. Might as well change the black hole effects to rainbow effects. Turn those Wolf-Rayets into Bunny Lovin's.
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more pvp. Probably not as much pvp against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more pvp.
-Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more blobbing. Probably not as much blobbing against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more blobbing.
corrected for you
I doubt that low sec has more blobbing than wormholes. -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:03:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more pvp. Probably not as much pvp against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more pvp.
Local's not the reason there's more pvp. Gates are. You want to fly through five or six systems looking for action, you go. Try to fly through five or six wormholes. How long's that going to take you?
Trying to credit local for something it actually discourages is disingenuous at best. Easy travel is why the population is so much larger, and the reason why PvP per person is higher.
There are allot of wormhole systems spread throughout New eden.
If no local made wormholes such a great place for pvp then people would be jumping into them and pvping.
It is not happening. That is not happening because Wormholes aren't a great place for pvp. They are good for ganking pvers or industrials but thats about it.
When you get some pvp experience you will see that local helps you identify if you can get a good fight in a system or if you are just going to get blobbed if you engage. -Cearain
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Smabs Removing local would only be good for cloaky gangs and ganks. And even then it'd only take a few weeks for nullsec to cull almost all carebears and solo/very small gang pvp'ers. There would be nothing left but big fleets and hotdrops.
Plus it's hard enough to get fights already. At least I can tentatively engage stuff now and run off if local starts spiking, or I can just not bother with it if I see someone's falcon or cyno alt hanging around in local. There's no way I'd even bother roaming by myself if I couldn't even make and educated guess at how hard I'm about to get blobbed.
Pretty much all fighting would occur on choke point gates as well. If there's no local the only realistic way to find fights would be to scout and follow gangs running through pipes.
Here's a scenario that happens quite often; A couple of people roam through nullsec and start a fight, but local spikes hard and they have to retreat. It's obvious that there's no way out of the system without getting ganked so they wait out fifteen minutes and just log off. Without local the defense gang would be wandering around probing for an hour in the search for ships that don't even exist.
Replacing local with a more effective scanner and map might be cool, though.
Thanks for posting.
You're of course right. Although as far as a new scanner replacing local - keep in mind that when the scanner picks someone up they will already be in warp to you. That might be significantly less time to escape the blob.
Unfortunately people like yourself who do allot of solo and small gang pvp will have their voices drowned out in this thread. Wormhole carebears and others who rarely do any solo or small gang pvp against anything other than industrials and pve ships are just loving this idea. -Cearain
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