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Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
70
   |
Posted - 2012.09.24 08:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to start off by saying that this operation wasn't personal: Probe Patrol has nothing against Mad Mystics of Maniacal Mayhem (4M). You were just a target of opportunity for a proof of concept mission.
Ever since Two Step mentioned that POS defenses in C1 through C4 wormhole systems are over powered and needed to be nerfed I wanted to see for myself how hard it would be to take down a POS in a C1. Now I'll freely admit that the POS we went after was no "**** Star" or "Death Star" but it really didn't matter -that POS was going down...
Due to mass restrictions the largest ship class we could use was battle cruisers, so we chose the Gila (a pirate faction cruiser) as our initial weapon to get the tower into re-enforced. Due to the ship's drone bonuses, and the drone damage amplifier module, we were able to fit Gila's that could do in excess of 600 DPS with Sentry Drones (over 700 DPS if you have Gallente Cruiser 5). We used Warden IIs and Bouncer IIS to play off of a large Minmitar Tower's resistance holes and it took less than an hour for less than a dozen Gilas. Note: That was Sentry Drones folks -a POS bash that consumed no ammo.
For the completion op we used armor cruisers plus support ships. Someone from 4M batphoned their friends, and we watched a lot of pilots go into the C1 and log out before the tower came out of re-enforced (lost count of the number of Falcons they brought in) but there wasn't much resistance. A few stealth bomber runs that were completely infective, and a Falcon that died in our bubble when it jumped in from high sec with one of our pilots and the worm hole collapsed behind it. We were really hoping for a fight, but it just didn't happen.
After we pulled the POS takedown fleet out of the system 4M did use a derogatory term for describing a female's genitalia because we didn't stick around and fight them. Pro tip: The time to fight is BEFORE someone blows up your POS... 
So I'm sitting here thinking that C1 through C4 wormholes are just fine with the current Player Owned Stations and that there doesn't need to be a change to the kind of defenses that you can have in those systems. You just need to think outside the box and be willing to use something other than capital ships...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
184
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 10:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
How did you prove anything when it wasn't a d1ckstar or deathstar? We need more details on the POS setup. The argument usually revolves around lots of ECMs being too powerful to take down without dreads, so you should have picked a dickstar with tons of ECMs and hardeners.
Might still have worked with Gilas. Though as soon as it also has some guns or defenders, the ECM would have become a problem for your logis...
. |
Aducat Ragnarson
Cult of the Black Goat
Dark Taboo
8
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 10:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
If you put 1 or 2 ECCM projectors on every gila it should be no problem. If the gilas are Jammed, big deal, the drones keep shooting. If the logis get jammed, it is 2 ECCM projectors per gila on the logi. The way ECCM projectors work is funny. The stacking penalty of ECCM projectors only comes into play at around 160-180 sensor strength which should be enough that the jams do not take too much effect anymore. Taking down a large dickstar pos whith good setup in a C1 is still a hassle, and most often not worth it. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 11:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:If you put 1 or 2 ECCM projectors on every gila it should be no problem. If the gilas are Jammed, big deal, the drones keep shooting. If the logis get jammed, it is 2 ECCM projectors per gila on the logi.
That's one of the reasons why we went with Gilas -jam them and the Sentries continue to fire. Speed tanking is your friend when the logistics gets jammed, and the Gilas were afterburner fit.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
66
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 12:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Why wouldn't you use Oracles with tracking computers etc when they do 1000+ DPS? Support with Guardians as necessary. |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
24
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 12:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
think you would be much better tryin it on a large cal tower with a crap load of ecm and a few gun's as you said it wasnt really a **** or death star,
also if they have pos gunners its fairly easy to shoot the sentries meaning you have to go get more (probably still work but would take alot longer) before peopel say pos's take ages to lock and shoot sentries its not that long when we used domis to do the same thing we were very surprised at just how well pos guns locked and hit sentries even scooping and re launching every 30 seconds we lost loads. |
Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
47
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 12:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
IIRC small arty locks sentry drones pretty quickly and can hit them out as far as you can use them even with tricked out drone ships that are almost 200km out. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
72
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 12:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
For the gun theory-crafters: We encapped the guns and ECM with the support fleet while the Gilas worked on the POS. Didn't lose any Sentries, and we had more than enough logistics. I'd like to go up against a more heavily defended tower, but the end result would still have been the same.
Funny thing about Oracles, or any other tier 3 battle cruiser, is that they use ammo (gonna ignore the fact that a Minmitar tower has resists to EM and thermal and not call anyone out for suggesting them). This whole op was "proof of concept" and Gilas + Sentries worked extremely well -we were very surprised at how fast the tower went into re-enforced. Also cool to be able to easily change the damage type by simply changing the drones.
Ninja edit: This is by no means our first and last POS bash. This one was just a dress rehearsal for future ops, so I'm sure we'll go up against a POS that's better defended and I'll be more than happy to update this thread with the kill mails.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 14:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
I actually enjoyed the story. You looked at a situation and applied a creative response that not only met the given constraints (C1 mass limits) but also mitigated to a great extent the overarching issue with towers in all classes of w-space (overpowered ECM).
Corbexx wrote:think you would be much better tryin it on a large cal tower with a crap load of ecm and a few gun's as you said it wasnt really a **** or death star,
That is true, however the drones method is still surprisingly effective against ECM because of the sheer number of targets that the ECM batteries must attack. But do you at least now acknowledge that ECM is the problem that requires extreme methods, and not necessarily the tower size? If ECM could only reliably jam same-racial targeting systems and only have a very low chance to jam off-racial targeting systems, would that not be a more balanced approach?
Corbexx wrote:also if they have pos gunners
That is a different situation and would require a different setup.
Flying a Gila or an Ishtar, both cruiser-sized ships which easily fit in a C1, you can get 600+ DPS from T2 Heavy drones. Those are much harder to hit than stationary sentry drones and would be quite useful for taking out any guns on a dickstar; a death star would again be different and require a different approach.
A situation that contained POS gunners might employ mobile drones instead of stationary drones, or they might have used a different tactic altogether. But either way, scouts would know whether there are targets online and be able to relay information so the FC could prepare appropriately; if things changed suddenly, both ships are also capable of swapping drones on the fly.
You can't just take one configuration and apply it to all situations. You'll either die in a fire or use up far more resources to succeed than you could have if you do succeed. Because POS-based ECM is so overpowered, having POS gunners or other active defending pilots nearby increases the difficulty exponentially.
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
|
Marsan
Production N Destruction INC.
50
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 16:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
There is also the 6-12 stealth bombers, and staging POS full of bombs solution to a dickstar. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
72
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 19:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meytal wrote:
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
This. So much this...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
24
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 19:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Meytal wrote:I actually enjoyed the story. You looked at a situation and applied a creative response that not only met the given constraints (C1 mass limits) but also mitigated to a great extent the overarching issue with towers in all classes of w-space (overpowered ECM). Corbexx wrote:think you would be much better tryin it on a large cal tower with a crap load of ecm and a few gun's as you said it wasnt really a **** or death star, That is true, however the drones method is still surprisingly effective against ECM because of the sheer number of targets that the ECM batteries must attack. But do you at least now acknowledge that ECM is the problem that requires extreme methods, and not necessarily the tower size? If ECM could only reliably jam same-racial targeting systems and only have a very low chance to jam off-racial targeting systems, would that not be a more balanced approach? Corbexx wrote:also if they have pos gunners That is a different situation and would require a different setup. Flying a Gila or an Ishtar, both cruiser-sized ships which easily fit in a C1, you can get 600+ DPS from T2 Heavy drones. Those are much harder to hit than stationary sentry drones and would be quite useful for taking out any guns on a dickstar; a death star would again be different and require a different approach. A situation that contained POS gunners might employ mobile drones instead of stationary drones, or they might have used a different tactic altogether. But either way, scouts would know whether there are targets online and be able to relay information so the FC could prepare appropriately; if things changed suddenly, both ships are also capable of swapping drones on the fly. You can't just take one configuration and apply it to all situations. You'll either die in a fire or use up far more resources to succeed than you could have if you do succeed. Because POS-based ECM is so overpowered, having POS gunners or other active defending pilots nearby increases the difficulty exponentially. The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
if you check back to the pos thread i think you'll find i have already said i think ecm is the issue not the pos size, as for heavy drones we also tried them when we were using domis and tbh they also died fairly easily as well |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End
League of Infamy
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 20:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dorn Val wrote:Meytal wrote:
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
This. So much this...
Yeah my immediate thought was it wasn't a **** star so you're not dealing with the 30 jammers or so that make it a hassle. Were they using any starbase defense managers, or did they have any active defense? Really I think most towers are easy to take down if you have 10-15 people (it sounds like you might have had more) and there are no defenders online. C1s get a lot of grief because people don't like popping 15 cruisers into a wormhole to take down a tower, they want to do it with 4 afk battleships with 15 falcons in support :P
~ Svodola Darkfury. |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
24
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 00:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
just out of interest i'm assuming this is the kill mail
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=14680501
|
Euthanasia Anneto
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
2
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Posted - 2012.09.25 05:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes that is, though the finishing blow that is.
a day and half before they done it with the sentry's.
Tactic changed because as mentioned, they noticed a lot of stuff coming in
though, having witnessed myself, nothing engaged us :'(
Perhaps another time...
|
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
72
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 05:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
The moral of the story is that there is no need to nerf C1 through C4 defenses -those systems, like any other system in Eve, can be taken. It may not be easy, it may not be in the ship you want to fly, but it can be done.
If there is anything at all that's out of balance it's ECM -it so desperately needs to be hit with a nerf bat it's not even funny. ECM, among many other things in this game, makes players risk adverse. No sense in engaging if I'm just gonna get jammed out anyway, right?! Hindsight being what it is I wonder if the opposition was jumping all of those Falcons in as a deterrent: They knew we had eyes on them, knew we could see everything that they were moving in. Maybe they were trying to intimidate us with all that ECM...
So Two Step maybe what we need here is for someone to talk to CCP about ECM and now it should be limited, if not completely restricted from, any new Player Owned Stations...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
424
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 07:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Euthanasia Anneto wrote:Yes that is, though the finishing blow that is. a day and half before they done it with the sentry's. Tactic changed because as mentioned, they noticed a lot of stuff coming in though, having witnessed myself, nothing engaged us :'( Perhaps another time...
I don't show up on any of the kills on that board :(
They see me trolling, they hating... |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
186
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 08:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Btw, not sure how well-known this information is: If a tower is all ewar no guns, you can just anchor a shitload of small bubbles everywhere on grid. The ECMs target bubbles just like they do ships, so a lot of the POS's ewar will be wasted on the bubbles and your ships will not get jammed as often.
I do not generally think that ECM is too strong and should be nerfed, imho it's completely fine how it is. But POS ECM should probably be nerfed. Reduce strength from 40 to 20 or even 10. That way it would actually become possible to operate under jams if you're willing to make the fitting sacrifices: less shield tank, no points, no prop, no webs etc.
. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
74
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 12:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Euthanasia Anneto wrote:Yes that is, though the finishing blow that is. a day and half before they done it with the sentry's. Tactic changed because as mentioned, they noticed a lot of stuff coming in though, having witnessed myself, nothing engaged us :'( Perhaps another time... I don't show up on any of the kills on that board :( That report is not showing fulland accurate information.
I'm guessing that you're talking about your alt Rek, since you and I were flying neut Legions for the completion strike -it's just too bad 4M didn't come out to play :(
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
425
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 13:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'm sure we got on that flacon...
Nice right-up btw but i think we had slightly that 12 Gila's 
They see me trolling, they hating... |
Holycrap Isuck
COSMIC CRUSADERS
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 22:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would have to say Probe Patrol engaged in good planning and scouting. They actually had over 40+ ships in the hole at one point, including if my count was accurate at least 11 Guardians, a number of Falcons and T3 support. Basically, the defending fleet couldn't match logi for logi and decided loosing a POS was far cheaper and wiser than an entire fleet . If I recall correctly, there were 8 Gila's and the attack occurred without POS gunners and with only a few defenders logged in.
I can't fault Probe, they brought it and the defending force had the wrong type of fleet in place. I also didn't see any vulgarities exchanged, but I also wasn't paying any attention to local. Good job Probe and there is always another place and another time. |
Afuran
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 11:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
What did you guys lose with the tower? |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 12:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Holycrap Isuck wrote:
I can't fault Probe, they brought it and the defending force had the wrong type of fleet in place. I also didn't see any vulgarities exchanged, but I also wasn't paying any attention to local. Good job Probe and there is always another place and another time.
The vulgarities were on coms: "Frickin bomb -pull in your drones!"
Fly safe M8 :)
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Piugattuk
CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES
65
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 16:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dorn Val wrote:Meytal wrote:
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
This. So much this...
ECM should be as powerful as it is as part of POS defense, it should take a lots and lots of effort to bash a POS because since you can't hold SOV in a WH. POS bashing as it is now is not that hard judging from all the corps that advertise for it, it should be like taking SOV away from POS owner (effort needed), (by SOV i mean taking POS out from WH if you want WH for yourself). |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 06:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Dorn Val wrote:Meytal wrote:
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
This. So much this... ECM should be as powerful as it is as part of POS defense, it should take a lots and lots of effort to bash a POS because since you can't hold SOV in a WH. POS bashing as it is now is not that hard judging from all the corps that advertise for it, it should be like taking SOV away from POS owner (effort needed), (by SOV i mean taking POS out from WH if you want WH for yourself).
Two Step proposed that C1to C4 space should not be as easy to defend as higher level systems. There are no restrictions on POS sizes and defenses anywhere in K space, and decreasing the ability to defend C1 to C4 systems would turn them into ghost towns.
It is a really bad idea...
I agree with you -a corp should have the ability to defend their assets, and it should not be easy to take them out. But if it seems like the defenses are too great, that it's limiting conflict, then fix what's actually broken and take the nerd bat to ECM.
ECM turns everyone in this game into hypocrites: We all use it, and at the same time we all cry foul when it is used against us. It's obviously broken because its over powered, so just nuke it already and put everyone on the same playing field.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
166
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 21:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think two-step has an issue with people in C1's with mental setups, who know what they're doing. Bashing a POS thats not even a deathstar doesn't really prove anything.
Try again on a Large POS, with at least 6 of each type of ECM plus gunned to the maximum with crazy amounts of redundancies. Add some online defenders manning the guns and perhaps some active members in system harrassing your fleet, and now we're talking!
Though i do agree with you, i think any significantly determined fleet can evict a corporation from a lower class wormhole. I see them as the last true place where a small corp can take space to call their own. Making changes to the current system would only (yet again) benefit the larger corps/alliances. They already have the higher classes to fight over, and make an insane profit compaired to the lower classes. Making things harder for smaller corps would be a massive mistake imo, and would simply open the door for the larger alliances to take over everything.  |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 22:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dorn Val wrote:Aducat Ragnarson wrote:If you put 1 or 2 ECCM projectors on every gila it should be no problem. If the gilas are Jammed, big deal, the drones keep shooting. If the logis get jammed, it is 2 ECCM projectors per gila on the logi. That's one of the reasons why we went with Gilas -jam them and the Sentries continue to fire. Speed tanking is your friend when the logistics gets jammed, and the Gilas were afterburner fit.
If you're afterburning around, the drones are easy targets, especially to bombing runs. And while you can scoop them up and redeploy, you need to be able to target to get them shooting again. Even if the aggressive setting somehow works and they start shooting on their own, 60 drones aren't going to be shooting the same thing, so its largely irrelevant that they're attacking at all.
Your victory, while satisfying, was largely due to incompetent defense. Any tower can be taken down easily if there are no gunners, or if the setup is bad. I like the concept you went in with, but the outcome does nothing for the argument at hand. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
76
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 06:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote: I think two-step has an issue with people in C1's with mental setups, who know what they're doing.
...and someone can set up a POS like that anywhere in Eve -why should W space be an exception?
Xen Solarus wrote: Try again on a Large POS, with at least 6 of each type of ECM plus gunned to the maximum with crazy amounts of redundancies. Add some online defenders manning the guns and perhaps some active members in system harrassing your fleet, and now we're talking!
Yup, it would have been a lot more difficult. But it would not have been impossible, and if ECM is the problem (and everyone knows that it is) then the solution is to nerf it and not restrict tower size based on the W system classification.
Xen Solarus wrote: Though i do agree with you, i think any significantly determined fleet can evict a corporation from a lower class wormhole. I see them as the last true place where a small corp can take space to call their own. Making changes to the current system would only (yet again) benefit the larger corps/alliances. They already have the higher classes to fight over, and make an insane profit compaired to the lower classes. Making things harder for smaller corps would be a massive mistake imo, and would simply open the door for the larger alliances to take over everything.
Which is why I think limiting the POS sizes based on W space system class is a huge mistake since it will turn those systems into ghost towns (think low sec). Great for the corp and alliances that live in C5 and C6 systems since they'll have unrestricted access to K space for their supply runs...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
76
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 06:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Your victory, while satisfying, was largely due to incompetent defense. Any tower can be taken down easily if there are no gunners, or if the setup is bad. I like the concept you went in with, but the outcome does nothing for the argument at hand.
I agree with you in part. It's true that it would have been more difficult if the tower had been better defended, but it would not have been impossible. To claim that POSes in C1 to C4 W space systems can't be taken out due to wormhole mass restrictions is a lie -it can be done, you're just not going to do it in a dreadnaught or a carrier. The real problem is ECM -balance it, nerf it, or just eliminate it completely from POS defenses and most of the problem with taking a POS in a lower class system is solved. But if ECM is changed then it needs to be changed for every W space system and not just the lower class ones.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
42BelowVodka
Techno-Wizard Industrial Technologies
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 18:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
i know u guys killed the POS to make a point, but other than that is it worth the time and effort to attack a large tower in a class 1?
takes a lot of organizing to get it going and with a well fueled POS u have to wait out the reinforcement timer. and than after killing it u have to find a way back to ur own wh |
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