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ChicksDigMagnets
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Posted - 2011.08.25 04:57:00 -
[1]
I've been playing this game for quite some time now and there is something that has me a bit confused.
Currently there are only two types of capital ships allowed in highsec. Freighters and Orcas. I once asked my corp mates why this is, and why carriers are not allowed in highsec. The response was something about goons and jita.
Were carriers at one point allowed in highsec? They are the only ship in the game that can carry an unpackaged battleship (aside from a courier contract to someone who owns a frieghter). I used to use an orca for a good amount of time as a mobile home base (amazing thing) to do missions etc.
I've also read stories about people who would try to solo wormholes with their orca as a mobile home base (where in some cases of this they either got stolen or ganked).
What is the story behind this? And why are carriers (not supers mind you) not allowed in highsec?
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ChicksDigMagnets
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Posted - 2011.08.25 05:03:00 -
[2]
Oh my! I forgot to reference:
Which seems quite outdated.
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Vaako Horizon
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Posted - 2011.08.25 06:08:00 -
[3]
This is about the pvp ppl trying to force others to pvp.
its a game about spaceships but only the null/low are allowed to fly them.
it was a fools idea to begin with to lock them out of high sec, intead they should have focused on other types of restrictions.
that said, when it comes down to it, there whould be little need for those capitals in highsec.
bringing a carrier to a lvl 4 mission whould be massive overkill but I'd atleast want the choise.
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2011.08.25 06:13:00 -
[4]
You use to be able to build capitals in highsec. They removed that though for what reason I don't remember.
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Hakkar'al Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.25 07:04:00 -
[5]
And no, carriers are not the only ship able to move unpackaged ships, Rorquals can move industrial ships (I moved my Hulk in it).
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Ka'Dulin Hareka
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Posted - 2011.08.25 07:12:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: ChicksDigMagnets
Currently there are only two types of capital ships allowed in highsec. Freighters and Orcas.
Technically Orcas are not capitals. They are more "battleship" class ships. Freighters on the other hand... it's a bit of a grey area. They are capitals in the sense that they need capital sized components to build, but skillwise they are not capitals (as they don't require the skill "Capital ships").
Originally by: ChicksDigMagnets
Were carriers at one point allowed in highsec?
Not intentionally, no. Capitals from their inception were intended on being low-sec/null-sec only ships (this is evidenced by the fact that you cannot activate a Cynosaural Field in high-sec).
However, when they were first introduced some people found out how to get around this by building them in high-sec stations. This was quickly fixed and now capitals can only be made in low-sec/null-sec. Those who did manage to finish building capitals in high-sec we allowed to keep them there... with certain "restrictions" (i.e. they are not allowed to take part in any form of combat or combat-support whatsoever).
Originally by: ChicksDigMagnets
And why are carriers (not supers mind you) not allowed in highsec?
Have you ever had issues with a neutral remote repper who comes in and saves the guy you are engaging? Capitals (Carriers to be more specific) are MONSTER remote reppers. Their capital remote repair units can rep about 1500 hp every 5 seconds. A large remote repair unit can only rep something in the range of 390 hp every 5 seconds. Very big difference.
More than that... capitals in general have a hell of a tank... averaging around 600 thousand to 2 million effective hit points. It's not something you can simply immobilize and gank (like with a normal logi)... not without LARGE numbers on your side and/or your own capitals at least. This only becomes worse when you have multiple capitals all supporting one another.
Note: Mind you.. this does not mean that capitals are OPed (bar the Supercarrier)... a few battleships with some logi/RR support can grind one down with some effort and planning/knowledge. But the fact that they can only be fielded in low-sec/null-sec means capitals can't "choose" their targets as one could in high-sec (as no one could interfere without incurring CONCORD's wrath) and thus fielding one in battle will always put the capital pilot at risk.
Another reason is that they can effectively "jump" from one end of the map to the other. The possibilities for traders/industrialists to move their goods from trade hub to trade hub without any real "effort" puts budding traders with more limited skills at a severe disadvantage.
tl;dr... capital ships are HUGE force multipliers that can change the tide of a battle with ease... especially in "small gang" situations. Sure, it'd be "cool" and people could "wow" new players with their big ships... but it wouldn't be very "fair" from a balancing perspective in multiple areas of the game.
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Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.08.25 07:35:00 -
[7]
There's also the fact that you'd have near-invulnerable transports that are able to avoid gatecamps. That does not go well with all the risk and reward thingy.
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.25 08:11:00 -
[8]
It's the balance that was the reason for removing them from highsec. Considering that CCP's vision of highsec includes that it is a place where new players are and where communities (corporations) are usually formed, it's a good thing to have a place that is competitive but not impossible to prosper in. Having that in mind we can now list the reasons:
Dreadnoughts:
- Dreadnoughts have superior weapons and their cost is not that low. Small corporations or corporations made mostly of new players that want to learn the game and explore various aspects of it (including industry) usually can not afford a fleet of dreadnoughts to defend their POS-es. Even without siege module, a fleet of dreadnoughts with support has a huge advantage over sub capital only fleet. Mix in some remote-rep carriers and new/industrial corporations do not stand a chance once spotted.
- If a limit is put that Dreadnoughts can not use their guns in highsec, then they are pretty much useless and shouldn't be in highsec in the first place.
Carriers:
- Carriers can be fitted in two ways: for combat or logistics.
- They are also not too cheap and require a lot of skills to be effective, which immediately puts new players in huge disadvantage.
- Combat carriers can deploy a lot of drones and have a lot of HP compared to any sub-capital ship. Even if fighters are banned from highsec, a carrier can deploy 15 t2 sentry drones for a total of 900 DPS. The drone bay of a carrier allows it to hold 4,000 sentry drones in it's bay making it impossible to shoot drones in a hope to reduce it's DPS.
- Remote repair carriers, even without Triage module active, are far more superior than logistics ships.
- With only a couple of carriers and a support fleet, new player corporations does not stand a chance against older players.
Transporting ships in carriers in highsec:
- Transporting ships in carriers is not exactly a valid reason to reintroduce them to highsec. Ships can already be transfered in Orcas and by contracts (as mentioned).
- By removing carriers from highsec, CCP has enabled the community to interact more by making it possible for certain players and corporations to do hauling as a way of income. Red Frog Freight corporation is a prime example.
- It will also force you to play wisely, think and take care of your asset's location. If your gameplay requires you to move frequently, then buy only what you need. Besides, we are only talking about rigged battleships, since you can put 3 rigged Battlecruisers or 7-8 rigged Cruisers on a courier contract.
Jump Freighters:
- Jump Freighters are already powerful enough without the ability to jump through highsec. They can still move through gates witch makes them useful in highsec.
Rorquals:
- Rorquals were introduced a couple of months before Orcas. It was designed as a ship to help low/null sec miners and industrials by providing some sort of a mobile base with a bonus of gang links and mining boosts.
- After some time, the community asked for a smaller version of a Rorqual that can be used in highsec. The idea was that highsec miners should also have the ability to apply gang link bonuses because otherwise there would be an imbalance in the game.
- A ship was designed to provide a mobile base to highsec players that will have gang bonuses, but will lack certain features of a Rorqual - like jump ability and ore compression (since you really don't need ore compression in an area where almost every system has an NPC station). That's when Orca was created.
Manufacturing capitals in highsec:
- you could build capital ships in highsec in the past
- at a certain point, the amount of capital ships made in game was getting out of control and warfare was getting out of balance (something like now with supercapitals, only with much more numbers involved). That imbalance threatened to ruin the game, so CCP decided to move the production to lowsec where you might need at least some effort... |
The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.25 08:11:00 -
[9]
... to build them.
PvE in capitals in highsec:
- Level 4 missions are already easy and profitable enough even if you are doing them in a simple t1 battleship with t2 fit. Faction battleships and/or faction fits makes it even more profitable where you can get more than 40 mil per hour by just doing level 4 missions. That number goes way higher if you have alts or friends to do the missions with.
- By having capital ships that can do level 4 missions in highsec, you've effectively increased the amount of ISK and LP that flows into the game. That makes your LP and ISK much less valuable and we would have a bad case of inflation in the whole game. Basically, you'd be printing ISK and LP in metric tons, but you couldn't buy much with it because there's too much ISK in the game.
- Not having capital ships in highsec missions is also a way to attract you to some more dangerous areas of space, if you want more profit. A popular term for that one among the players is "Risk vs. Reward" (although the balance of that one is questionable, since you can still make more in highsec than in most of the 0.0 space, but that's a story for another thread).
I hope that I've cleared a few points up.
Cheers. |
Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.08.25 12:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
You use to be able to build capitals in highsec. They removed that though for what reason I don't remember.
when the Rorquals came out... would've been *far* too OP.
(Orcas came later)
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Originally by: CCP Games, 2010
Creation is so precious; and greed, so destructive. Your choices can make a diference
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Telvani
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
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Posted - 2011.08.25 13:25:00 -
[11]
I never want to see carriers/dreads using jump gates, cynos in highsec, capital production in highsec or high-mass highsec WHs. Not just because these facilitate highsec caps but just because they are all bad ideas for the game as a whole.
So no highbears shouldn't have capitals.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.25 13:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: The Offerer
... to build them.
PvE in capitals in highsec:
- Level 4 missions are already easy and profitable enough even if you are doing them in a simple t1 battleship with t2 fit.
Hell you can do them in a drake as long as you dont mind taking a little time and make sure you do it right
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CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game.
SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
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