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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:31:00 -
[1]
Last night, J0rt and Lord Zap opened up a can of whoop ass on myself and my guildmates. It was my first PvP encounter and here are some observations.
I can understand now why people are complaining about combat length. We had a situation where 5 top end cruisers (4 Moas and 1 Maller) vs. 2 battleships.
The cruisers were totally outmatched. I was the first to die and was dead within 5 seconds of J0rt locking me. 1 shot stripped my shields and some of my armour. Next shot stripped my armour and most of my hull and the third shot killed me.
Combat is way to fast to be enjoyable. We are talking about cruisers and battleships here, not pee-wee fighters. To put it in perspective it took me 2 weeks of constant mining to earn the Moa and about a million ISK to equip it properly but 5~10 seconds to lose it.
At the end of the encounter we lost 3 cruisers with two badly hurt limping away.
DEVs, you need to go play Starfleet Command for a few weeks and learn how to build a non-twitch cruiser battle. A FAST battle in Starfleet Command takes 20 minutes. A long battle vs two elite players takes anything upto 3 hours. SFC feels like a space battleship simulation. EVE feels like I am in a fighter battle.
Actually, not even Freespace 1 and 2, where you were a fighter was as fast as last nights battle.
Anyway I'll head back to the mining caves now to re-earn another Moa and stick to PvE for a while.
P.S. This isnt a whine nor am I angry at M0O. We tried to ambush them, they kicked our ass. Thats fine. But it wasnt fun that the battle went so short. The shorter the battle the less tactical skill you need and the more important firepower is.
If thats the case, I recomend not PvP'ing unless you are in a class of ship higher then the guy you are fighting.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:38:00 -
[2]
ok
1 bship is about 10 cruisers worth of minerals so like 2 bships = 20 cruisers worth of mins
Comment removed, flaming is not allowed - Wrangler
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"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:43:00 -
[3]
Let that be a lesson to you... :)
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:25:00 -
[4]
ummm - you spent 1 million on outfitting it? Assuming you didn't mainly use pirate drops then that's basically an awful loadout. If you're not getting the pirate drops yourself then look at paying the same as you paid for the cruiser to outfit it - at least.
I also have to agree with the m0o members here - what do you expect going up against battleships with a "fleet" like that? For God's sake you should have had multiple ECM ships in there to lock the battleships just for a start!
Tomorrows patch will make life a little more interesting in that if ECM frigates can get up close to the battleship it'll be screwed without a cruiser escort.
Basically I have to agree entirely with m0o here - you did something dumb and you lost your ship. Same thing will happen tomorrow - it'll just take a little longer....
Edited by: agrizla on 03/07/2003 01:26:35
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:29:00 -
[5]
He learnt a lesson, and it's not like he's the only one with this opinion, so give the guy a brake. ;)
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:32:00 -
[6]
Sacriledge!
You do not, EVER, buy a combat ship for XX million ISK and equip it with 1 mill isk of gear.
The fact that equipping it with 20 million isk of gear wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference is beside the point.
Its like arming a Challenger II with a PIAT and using "play-dough" for armour instead of Chobham.
- - -
Anyway - combat will last longer after tomorrow's patch, but dont expect that a cruiser will last much longer against a battleship.
Obviously depends on the situation and weapons etc but battleships still eat cruisers for a snack.
Especially cruisers with n00b loadouts.
_ - - - -
Damn it man! You should've come to us to outfit you!
Best arms dealers in the galaxy.
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:34:00 -
[7]
It wasn't 2 battleships against 5 cruisers. He didn't live long enough for the second to lock. The fight was 1 battleship shooting at 1 cruiser.
The poster said only 1 battleship was shooting at him and he died in 3 shots.
Moo you think thats ok?
He never said anything about you guys exploiting infact he didn't say anything bad about you at all ( for a change :P ). His only point was that 3 shots from a battleship taking down a moa is way too fast....I agree
2 battleships should "spank" 5 cruisers but not in 15 shots. It's a moot point right now though the patch should change all this.....I hope
Oh and BTW I never spent a dime on my ship and it had the best equipment you can get for a cruiser..maybe he found the rest?
Edited by: Damon Vile on 03/07/2003 01:37:30
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:36:00 -
[8]
Wrangler - the thing is I don't think he did learn a lesson. I think he just thinks the whole PvP thing is unfair because he died.
I was podded by m0o weeks ago and I did learn from it. Some simple rules :
a) Do not go wandering around insecure space in any ship unless you can afford to lose it;
b) Don't be surprised when your ship gets wasted because you spent <20% of the cost of the ship on outfitting it;
c) If you see a battleship and you're in a cruiser then get the hell out of town (unless of course you're in a properly equipped fleet);
d) It's a GAME for god's sake! It isn't work and if you get beaten then that's just tough. Live with it and try something else :)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:43:00 -
[9]
No - he's refering to "The Ten Tonne Weight".
Or how a bad DM would set a lethal trap that kills instantly with no warning and is unescapeable.
Its naff.
Which is why combat duration had to be extended.
Unfortunately some players only see "their" side of a battle, thus those employing the gank-power have an involed, albeit very short, battle.
Those on the receivieng end have a short and uninvolving battle - there's not ime to do anything at all.
If you can't "do" anything - then its not a game.
Some can't appreciate this aspect of the word.
The flip side is anybody quoting a 3 hour encounter as being a good "battleship encounter"..... erm... I can play PBEM faster than that.
no thx.
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Rising Sin
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:46:00 -
[10]
I'd say he actually took it pretty well considering, and that he did learn his lesson. From what it looks like, he's not going after pc's anytime soon.
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"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
Jon Gray
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:50:00 -
[11]
If your referring to j0rt and Lord Zap blockading the gate is HLW-HP (Curse Region), I was in that system at the time and its funny to think that you can take out battleships maximising the most of CCP's mistakes. I have an immense loadout (more than my Moa cost) on my ship and hell I wouldnt join fighting m0o. Its not worth the effort with the current in-game mistakes. Stabilizers are affected by surgical strike giving them stupid bonus's. m0o likely have as many 1200mm Artillery & Dual 425mm Scout Artillerys as they can, running all their loslots with Gyro's or above (thats over 16+ modifier on guns), combined with Multispectrals on medium, that makes a near unbeatable setup. So either play their own game (Like RUS) or moan to devs about their schoolboy errors. Hopefully later should see a more even setup.
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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 02:15:00 -
[12]
Hey guys,
I am not complaining I died. Its the only way I learn. I took my experience from SFC1, 2 and 3 as well as Freespace1 and 2 and my experience fighting NPC Pirates and figured that 6 cruisers Vs 1 Battleship (original set-up) should have a fighting chance. I thought, at worst, we would get mauled and get away.
I didn't expect to be killed instantly. So all my points of reference from other games and in game PC Vs NPC fighting was irrelevant and I got spanked. No problem. In DAOC and EQ fighting NPCs is comparable to fighting PCs so I figured, using that model, if the **** hit the fan I could get away. Didn't work that way. No problem, that's how the game works and I learned a lesson.
But, I still would argue that a battleship spanking a heavy cruiser to death in, what, 5~10 seconds? is not fun and is not conducive to long term game play. One of the reasons I played EQ for 3 years was because there were tactics and strategies involved in fighting the AI. I played SFC the computer game for 5+ years for the same reason. I love PvP combat, but if the only strategy is "biggest ship wins" then I wouldn't be surprised if people like me looking for combat satisfaction will either a) stick to the NPCS (no challenge) or b) give up combat and become a merchant/miner or c) leave.
The MOA was my first cruiser, so it probably did have a noob loadout, but my entire job in that battle was to warpscramble you guys. Other people in the fleet had the ECM/ECCM thing going. My job was to scramble. I was so shocked by the amount of damage I was receiving that I didn't even think to press the warp scrambler, and by the time I did I was a space hulk. Atleast I didn't get podded :)
My Moa had 3x 250 coils, 1x 150 coils loaded with AM. 1600 shields, forget the armour amount. Medium Shield Generator/Warp scrambler and 4x power diags to feed the hungry hybrids.
Now I am sure someone is bound to say "noob loadout, you deserved to die". Maybe, but that is not the point of my post. My point is 5 second battles are still bad for the game. Sheesh battles in Unreal last longer then 5 seconds! :)
Anyway alls well that ends well and I learned a lesson. Don't tango with bigger ships unless you have 20 to 1 odds. If you are in the bigger ship, dont fight equals, but always seek out smaller class ships as they wont be able to hurt you. Dont think about PvP without a backup ship unless you enjoy mining.
:)
PS 3 hour battles in SFC are rare and they are NOT boring because there are so many tactics and strategies involved in killing your opponent. A friend and myself were Romulan aces and we would have fun fighting out numbered (2x Super Heavy Cruisers Vs 4 or 6 Heavy Cruisers).
SFC is a better model for space borne battleship combat IMO and EVE devs could learn a lot from that line of games.
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Jon Gray
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Posted - 2003.07.03 02:36:00 -
[13]
Yes, but m0o use the system to the BEST of their advantages, their not dumb, its the mistakes of CCP that causes their ships to own so easily. It is being fixed DO NOT worry. Oh its not exploiting either, its within the boundarys. Obviously 7 phases of beta wasn't enough.
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.07.03 03:13:00 -
[14]
Also, Bship artillery is, like, the size of a small car.
Imagine that smacking the side of your cruiser at high speed... :)
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Jon Gray
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Posted - 2003.07.03 05:14:00 -
[15]
Yea, you'll have go go take a **** and come back to make sure ur enemy is dead.
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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 07:14:00 -
[16]
Basically what has happened is this. You have two design methodologies for PvP;
1) Get items fast, but can lose said items and life fast. Premise of all first person shooters.
2) Get items slowly but they are hard to lose. Premise of most (if not all) RPGs.
EVE takes a bit from both which is, fundamentally, a bad design. I am surprised it got to the market with such a big design flaw. I am glad they are trying to fix it. Will see after tonights patch.
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.07.03 07:56:00 -
[17]
My post was deleted again.
So I'll post it again.
______________
j0rt was in a BATTLESHIP.
Of course your ship was destroyed in a matter of seconds, how long do you think it should take a battleship to shred through a poorly equipped cruiser?
I don't think it is fair to call your cruiser top-end when you have frigate weapons equipped and no defensive modules at all!
Do you think he should have to take 4-5 minutes to tear through your recreational vehicle?
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m0o
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Stonyvision
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:05:00 -
[18]
Well agrizla... that's just dumb.
When i see a BS i just get out of town?
HELLOOOOO!!!
If i can SEE the BS i am dead and can't go nowwhere!
Did you READ what he posted even?
3 shots!!!
Only way he could've survived would eb a mwd but for obvious reasons noone has them equipped normally if not travelling far.
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Gone2mars
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:09:00 -
[19]
Just reading the post... in all fairness Axelay, fair play to you and the M0o boys for taking the time out to equip your Bships to the max.. but i can see Solo's point...
even all the M0o and other pirate corp members reading this that are running around with Heavy turrets and Bships must sometimes think,
"Hey, you know what? Killing people in 5 seconds flat isn't really that fun anymore.. especially when i've done it 20 times in the last hour.."
All i'm saying is if i had a BShip with loads of guns.. i would at least want a challenge when fighting 5 slightly smaller opponents.. And i think this is what Solo is saying...?
Drawing out a battle for about a minute or so instead of 5seconds (or even 30seconds because they're smaller ships) would surely be better then locking on, hitting fire, and then watching them die 3 shots later?
I'm not having a go here, but surely even you guys wouldn't mind a slight challenge in the game?
Edited by: Gone2mars on 03/07/2003 08:17:01
"Beer - Helping White Guys Dance Since 1842" |
Kelewan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:28:00 -
[20]
Maybe what we need is a new class of ship.
A step up from cruiser? any ideas, suggestions, flames, etc?
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"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:33:00 -
[21]
I like the idea of more diverse ship classes.
Frigates are frigates, but cruisers should have more sub-categories.
Cargo-Cruisers
Battle-Cruisers
Probably some more, but im not terribly creative at the moment.
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m0o
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Kelewan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:41:00 -
[22]
yeah thats the sort of thing im thinking. but to be honest thats gonna be a hell of a lot of work for CCP to implement.
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"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:42:00 -
[23]
In fact, yes, I think it should take a minimum of 4 to 5 minutes to destroy a stock cruiser if I was in a battleship.
What defenses could I possibly have to stop 2k damage every few seconds? The only defense is EW but I dont have the slots/power in a Moa to beat a battleships ECM. And even if I did, all the battleship needs is 1 ECCM to thwart my attempt.
Not to mention the fact of power - where am I getting all the power for all these mythical defensive items?
Again, I am not debating that I didnt deserve to be killed for picking a fight with a bigger ship. I am arguing that the PvP design is flawed.
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Prada
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:55:00 -
[24]
Solo is right - it wouldn't have made a difference even if he went in w/o any equipment at all. He would still be swatted like a bug in a few seconds.
My two cents:
A frigate definitely should not be able to take out a battleship, but should have a fairly good chance of fleeing one.
Ditto for cruisers.
That a battleship is many times the cost of a frigate/cruiser does not mean it should totally render lesser ships obsolete - which is what's happening right now.
Seriously, assuming everyone had access to battleships right now, is there any reason at all (other than perhaps speed) to fly something other than a battleship? I for one want to see all the ship classes - from frigates to titans - have a role in all levels of the game.
Edited by: Prada on 03/07/2003 08:56:49
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:57:00 -
[25]
There were a few ways you could have done some hurting but sending 5 cruisers at 2 battleships really is like sending 5 frigates against 2 cruisers. With greater numbers or better preparation perhaps you could have done some damage to one of them but there is no way you could have lasted without casulties.
One strategy that comes to mind would be to warp in several newbies in newbie ships, race out away from the gate to mark a bookmark. Then copy the bookmark to all the other people.
Next all warp in at that far bookmark away from the gate and the battleships. There you would all be out of range of their guns instead of picked off one at a time.
Several things you can do at this point. Since obviously a few shots will take out your cruiser. You need to use weapons with equal or longer range than the battleships. Missiles come to mind. A heavy barrage of missiles at extreme range should do some damage.
Another reason for the long range is that the idea of ECM is to reduce targeting sensors. Every point you reduce on the battleship is a certain distance out that they can't target your ship. If you can reduce the range of the battleship's targeting far enough, It can't even lock on you to fire.
What you guys said about cheap modules isn't true. There are alot of cheap items found on pirates that can be used to great effectiveness. The thing is to first take away their initiative, reduce their advantage and you will win.
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Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:04:00 -
[26]
It'll be nice to see some big-ass EW devices that go in the High Slots, as the only real defence is breaking a lock. You can kit a ship out for defence only.
x a n e |
Prada
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:05:00 -
[27]
Or howabout some sort of 'automatic ECM' feature that kicks in as soon as someone attempts a lock?
Maybe that could partially solve the warp lag issue too?
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:07:00 -
[28]
I don't agree. The tactics should be to encourage scissor paper stone approach. You shouldn't have a weapon or a ship that beats all others.
Example: Battleships should be able to kill sitting cruisers easy. Not in 5 seconds, maybe a minute? But have no real chance of hitting frigates much especially when closer. (You therefore get swarm scenarios with frigates overcoming Battleships by slow attrition).
Cruisers should be able to spank frigates, having the balance of weapon movement and weapon size, to deal rapid and effective damage. They mostly fast enough to have any advantage over Battleships and therefore cannot expect to win out except by advantages of tech and numbers.
Frigates do not necessarily pose a threat to battleships but enjoy reasonable immunity from their agility. This increases closer up.
Homeworld anybody?
Same follows for weapons. If people insist on fitting the largest heaviest stuff to Battleships then they should not expect combat efficiency against frigates and the faster/more agile cruisers. Mxing the weapons to include smaller weapons would then give BS some protection aganst frigates for example.
Thus a mix of ships and weapons makes the most effective fleet, just ask admiral akbar! The bigger the better should not dominate!
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:12:00 -
[29]
with the new changes to tracking and fixes to surgical strike and ammo ranges I think you have what you wanted. Battles will definately last longer now.
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Beowulf I
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:24:00 -
[30]
Of cuase once they fix the ammo, stacking issues, bugs etc that M0O and others are using 'ie game bugs' we will have a lot of this 'cair bear' rubbish posts.
While some can 'exploite' errors in the game the is OK to have a 5 second combat as its easy and does not need tatics, but fix the game and it gets hard and then tatics are needed. Then PVP will be fun
Beowulf
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