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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:31:00 -
[1]
Last night, J0rt and Lord Zap opened up a can of whoop ass on myself and my guildmates. It was my first PvP encounter and here are some observations.
I can understand now why people are complaining about combat length. We had a situation where 5 top end cruisers (4 Moas and 1 Maller) vs. 2 battleships.
The cruisers were totally outmatched. I was the first to die and was dead within 5 seconds of J0rt locking me. 1 shot stripped my shields and some of my armour. Next shot stripped my armour and most of my hull and the third shot killed me.
Combat is way to fast to be enjoyable. We are talking about cruisers and battleships here, not pee-wee fighters. To put it in perspective it took me 2 weeks of constant mining to earn the Moa and about a million ISK to equip it properly but 5~10 seconds to lose it.
At the end of the encounter we lost 3 cruisers with two badly hurt limping away.
DEVs, you need to go play Starfleet Command for a few weeks and learn how to build a non-twitch cruiser battle. A FAST battle in Starfleet Command takes 20 minutes. A long battle vs two elite players takes anything upto 3 hours. SFC feels like a space battleship simulation. EVE feels like I am in a fighter battle.
Actually, not even Freespace 1 and 2, where you were a fighter was as fast as last nights battle.
Anyway I'll head back to the mining caves now to re-earn another Moa and stick to PvE for a while.
P.S. This isnt a whine nor am I angry at M0O. We tried to ambush them, they kicked our ass. Thats fine. But it wasnt fun that the battle went so short. The shorter the battle the less tactical skill you need and the more important firepower is.
If thats the case, I recomend not PvP'ing unless you are in a class of ship higher then the guy you are fighting.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:38:00 -
[2]
ok
1 bship is about 10 cruisers worth of minerals so like 2 bships = 20 cruisers worth of mins
Comment removed, flaming is not allowed - Wrangler
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"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:43:00 -
[3]
Let that be a lesson to you... :)
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:25:00 -
[4]
ummm - you spent 1 million on outfitting it? Assuming you didn't mainly use pirate drops then that's basically an awful loadout. If you're not getting the pirate drops yourself then look at paying the same as you paid for the cruiser to outfit it - at least.
I also have to agree with the m0o members here - what do you expect going up against battleships with a "fleet" like that? For God's sake you should have had multiple ECM ships in there to lock the battleships just for a start!
Tomorrows patch will make life a little more interesting in that if ECM frigates can get up close to the battleship it'll be screwed without a cruiser escort.
Basically I have to agree entirely with m0o here - you did something dumb and you lost your ship. Same thing will happen tomorrow - it'll just take a little longer....
Edited by: agrizla on 03/07/2003 01:26:35
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:29:00 -
[5]
He learnt a lesson, and it's not like he's the only one with this opinion, so give the guy a brake. ;)
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:32:00 -
[6]
Sacriledge!
You do not, EVER, buy a combat ship for XX million ISK and equip it with 1 mill isk of gear.
The fact that equipping it with 20 million isk of gear wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference is beside the point.
Its like arming a Challenger II with a PIAT and using "play-dough" for armour instead of Chobham.
- - -
Anyway - combat will last longer after tomorrow's patch, but dont expect that a cruiser will last much longer against a battleship.
Obviously depends on the situation and weapons etc but battleships still eat cruisers for a snack.
Especially cruisers with n00b loadouts.
_ - - - -
Damn it man! You should've come to us to outfit you!
Best arms dealers in the galaxy.
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:34:00 -
[7]
It wasn't 2 battleships against 5 cruisers. He didn't live long enough for the second to lock. The fight was 1 battleship shooting at 1 cruiser.
The poster said only 1 battleship was shooting at him and he died in 3 shots.
Moo you think thats ok?
He never said anything about you guys exploiting infact he didn't say anything bad about you at all ( for a change :P ). His only point was that 3 shots from a battleship taking down a moa is way too fast....I agree
2 battleships should "spank" 5 cruisers but not in 15 shots. It's a moot point right now though the patch should change all this.....I hope
Oh and BTW I never spent a dime on my ship and it had the best equipment you can get for a cruiser..maybe he found the rest?
Edited by: Damon Vile on 03/07/2003 01:37:30
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:36:00 -
[8]
Wrangler - the thing is I don't think he did learn a lesson. I think he just thinks the whole PvP thing is unfair because he died.
I was podded by m0o weeks ago and I did learn from it. Some simple rules :
a) Do not go wandering around insecure space in any ship unless you can afford to lose it;
b) Don't be surprised when your ship gets wasted because you spent <20% of the cost of the ship on outfitting it;
c) If you see a battleship and you're in a cruiser then get the hell out of town (unless of course you're in a properly equipped fleet);
d) It's a GAME for god's sake! It isn't work and if you get beaten then that's just tough. Live with it and try something else :)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:43:00 -
[9]
No - he's refering to "The Ten Tonne Weight".
Or how a bad DM would set a lethal trap that kills instantly with no warning and is unescapeable.
Its naff.
Which is why combat duration had to be extended.
Unfortunately some players only see "their" side of a battle, thus those employing the gank-power have an involed, albeit very short, battle.
Those on the receivieng end have a short and uninvolving battle - there's not ime to do anything at all.
If you can't "do" anything - then its not a game.
Some can't appreciate this aspect of the word.
The flip side is anybody quoting a 3 hour encounter as being a good "battleship encounter"..... erm... I can play PBEM faster than that.
no thx.
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Rising Sin
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:46:00 -
[10]
I'd say he actually took it pretty well considering, and that he did learn his lesson. From what it looks like, he's not going after pc's anytime soon.
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"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
Jon Gray
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:50:00 -
[11]
If your referring to j0rt and Lord Zap blockading the gate is HLW-HP (Curse Region), I was in that system at the time and its funny to think that you can take out battleships maximising the most of CCP's mistakes. I have an immense loadout (more than my Moa cost) on my ship and hell I wouldnt join fighting m0o. Its not worth the effort with the current in-game mistakes. Stabilizers are affected by surgical strike giving them stupid bonus's. m0o likely have as many 1200mm Artillery & Dual 425mm Scout Artillerys as they can, running all their loslots with Gyro's or above (thats over 16+ modifier on guns), combined with Multispectrals on medium, that makes a near unbeatable setup. So either play their own game (Like RUS) or moan to devs about their schoolboy errors. Hopefully later should see a more even setup.
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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 02:15:00 -
[12]
Hey guys,
I am not complaining I died. Its the only way I learn. I took my experience from SFC1, 2 and 3 as well as Freespace1 and 2 and my experience fighting NPC Pirates and figured that 6 cruisers Vs 1 Battleship (original set-up) should have a fighting chance. I thought, at worst, we would get mauled and get away.
I didn't expect to be killed instantly. So all my points of reference from other games and in game PC Vs NPC fighting was irrelevant and I got spanked. No problem. In DAOC and EQ fighting NPCs is comparable to fighting PCs so I figured, using that model, if the **** hit the fan I could get away. Didn't work that way. No problem, that's how the game works and I learned a lesson.
But, I still would argue that a battleship spanking a heavy cruiser to death in, what, 5~10 seconds? is not fun and is not conducive to long term game play. One of the reasons I played EQ for 3 years was because there were tactics and strategies involved in fighting the AI. I played SFC the computer game for 5+ years for the same reason. I love PvP combat, but if the only strategy is "biggest ship wins" then I wouldn't be surprised if people like me looking for combat satisfaction will either a) stick to the NPCS (no challenge) or b) give up combat and become a merchant/miner or c) leave.
The MOA was my first cruiser, so it probably did have a noob loadout, but my entire job in that battle was to warpscramble you guys. Other people in the fleet had the ECM/ECCM thing going. My job was to scramble. I was so shocked by the amount of damage I was receiving that I didn't even think to press the warp scrambler, and by the time I did I was a space hulk. Atleast I didn't get podded :)
My Moa had 3x 250 coils, 1x 150 coils loaded with AM. 1600 shields, forget the armour amount. Medium Shield Generator/Warp scrambler and 4x power diags to feed the hungry hybrids.
Now I am sure someone is bound to say "noob loadout, you deserved to die". Maybe, but that is not the point of my post. My point is 5 second battles are still bad for the game. Sheesh battles in Unreal last longer then 5 seconds! :)
Anyway alls well that ends well and I learned a lesson. Don't tango with bigger ships unless you have 20 to 1 odds. If you are in the bigger ship, dont fight equals, but always seek out smaller class ships as they wont be able to hurt you. Dont think about PvP without a backup ship unless you enjoy mining.
:)
PS 3 hour battles in SFC are rare and they are NOT boring because there are so many tactics and strategies involved in killing your opponent. A friend and myself were Romulan aces and we would have fun fighting out numbered (2x Super Heavy Cruisers Vs 4 or 6 Heavy Cruisers).
SFC is a better model for space borne battleship combat IMO and EVE devs could learn a lot from that line of games.
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Jon Gray
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Posted - 2003.07.03 02:36:00 -
[13]
Yes, but m0o use the system to the BEST of their advantages, their not dumb, its the mistakes of CCP that causes their ships to own so easily. It is being fixed DO NOT worry. Oh its not exploiting either, its within the boundarys. Obviously 7 phases of beta wasn't enough.
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.07.03 03:13:00 -
[14]
Also, Bship artillery is, like, the size of a small car.
Imagine that smacking the side of your cruiser at high speed... :)
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Jon Gray
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Posted - 2003.07.03 05:14:00 -
[15]
Yea, you'll have go go take a **** and come back to make sure ur enemy is dead.
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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 07:14:00 -
[16]
Basically what has happened is this. You have two design methodologies for PvP;
1) Get items fast, but can lose said items and life fast. Premise of all first person shooters.
2) Get items slowly but they are hard to lose. Premise of most (if not all) RPGs.
EVE takes a bit from both which is, fundamentally, a bad design. I am surprised it got to the market with such a big design flaw. I am glad they are trying to fix it. Will see after tonights patch.
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.07.03 07:56:00 -
[17]
My post was deleted again.
So I'll post it again.
______________
j0rt was in a BATTLESHIP.
Of course your ship was destroyed in a matter of seconds, how long do you think it should take a battleship to shred through a poorly equipped cruiser?
I don't think it is fair to call your cruiser top-end when you have frigate weapons equipped and no defensive modules at all!
Do you think he should have to take 4-5 minutes to tear through your recreational vehicle?
_____
m0o
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Stonyvision
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:05:00 -
[18]
Well agrizla... that's just dumb.
When i see a BS i just get out of town?
HELLOOOOO!!!
If i can SEE the BS i am dead and can't go nowwhere!
Did you READ what he posted even?
3 shots!!!
Only way he could've survived would eb a mwd but for obvious reasons noone has them equipped normally if not travelling far.
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Gone2mars
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:09:00 -
[19]
Just reading the post... in all fairness Axelay, fair play to you and the M0o boys for taking the time out to equip your Bships to the max.. but i can see Solo's point...
even all the M0o and other pirate corp members reading this that are running around with Heavy turrets and Bships must sometimes think,
"Hey, you know what? Killing people in 5 seconds flat isn't really that fun anymore.. especially when i've done it 20 times in the last hour.."
All i'm saying is if i had a BShip with loads of guns.. i would at least want a challenge when fighting 5 slightly smaller opponents.. And i think this is what Solo is saying...?
Drawing out a battle for about a minute or so instead of 5seconds (or even 30seconds because they're smaller ships) would surely be better then locking on, hitting fire, and then watching them die 3 shots later?
I'm not having a go here, but surely even you guys wouldn't mind a slight challenge in the game?
Edited by: Gone2mars on 03/07/2003 08:17:01
"Beer - Helping White Guys Dance Since 1842" |
Kelewan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:28:00 -
[20]
Maybe what we need is a new class of ship.
A step up from cruiser? any ideas, suggestions, flames, etc?
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"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:33:00 -
[21]
I like the idea of more diverse ship classes.
Frigates are frigates, but cruisers should have more sub-categories.
Cargo-Cruisers
Battle-Cruisers
Probably some more, but im not terribly creative at the moment.
_____
m0o
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Kelewan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:41:00 -
[22]
yeah thats the sort of thing im thinking. but to be honest thats gonna be a hell of a lot of work for CCP to implement.
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"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:42:00 -
[23]
In fact, yes, I think it should take a minimum of 4 to 5 minutes to destroy a stock cruiser if I was in a battleship.
What defenses could I possibly have to stop 2k damage every few seconds? The only defense is EW but I dont have the slots/power in a Moa to beat a battleships ECM. And even if I did, all the battleship needs is 1 ECCM to thwart my attempt.
Not to mention the fact of power - where am I getting all the power for all these mythical defensive items?
Again, I am not debating that I didnt deserve to be killed for picking a fight with a bigger ship. I am arguing that the PvP design is flawed.
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Prada
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:55:00 -
[24]
Solo is right - it wouldn't have made a difference even if he went in w/o any equipment at all. He would still be swatted like a bug in a few seconds.
My two cents:
A frigate definitely should not be able to take out a battleship, but should have a fairly good chance of fleeing one.
Ditto for cruisers.
That a battleship is many times the cost of a frigate/cruiser does not mean it should totally render lesser ships obsolete - which is what's happening right now.
Seriously, assuming everyone had access to battleships right now, is there any reason at all (other than perhaps speed) to fly something other than a battleship? I for one want to see all the ship classes - from frigates to titans - have a role in all levels of the game.
Edited by: Prada on 03/07/2003 08:56:49
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 08:57:00 -
[25]
There were a few ways you could have done some hurting but sending 5 cruisers at 2 battleships really is like sending 5 frigates against 2 cruisers. With greater numbers or better preparation perhaps you could have done some damage to one of them but there is no way you could have lasted without casulties.
One strategy that comes to mind would be to warp in several newbies in newbie ships, race out away from the gate to mark a bookmark. Then copy the bookmark to all the other people.
Next all warp in at that far bookmark away from the gate and the battleships. There you would all be out of range of their guns instead of picked off one at a time.
Several things you can do at this point. Since obviously a few shots will take out your cruiser. You need to use weapons with equal or longer range than the battleships. Missiles come to mind. A heavy barrage of missiles at extreme range should do some damage.
Another reason for the long range is that the idea of ECM is to reduce targeting sensors. Every point you reduce on the battleship is a certain distance out that they can't target your ship. If you can reduce the range of the battleship's targeting far enough, It can't even lock on you to fire.
What you guys said about cheap modules isn't true. There are alot of cheap items found on pirates that can be used to great effectiveness. The thing is to first take away their initiative, reduce their advantage and you will win.
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Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:04:00 -
[26]
It'll be nice to see some big-ass EW devices that go in the High Slots, as the only real defence is breaking a lock. You can kit a ship out for defence only.
x a n e |
Prada
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:05:00 -
[27]
Or howabout some sort of 'automatic ECM' feature that kicks in as soon as someone attempts a lock?
Maybe that could partially solve the warp lag issue too?
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:07:00 -
[28]
I don't agree. The tactics should be to encourage scissor paper stone approach. You shouldn't have a weapon or a ship that beats all others.
Example: Battleships should be able to kill sitting cruisers easy. Not in 5 seconds, maybe a minute? But have no real chance of hitting frigates much especially when closer. (You therefore get swarm scenarios with frigates overcoming Battleships by slow attrition).
Cruisers should be able to spank frigates, having the balance of weapon movement and weapon size, to deal rapid and effective damage. They mostly fast enough to have any advantage over Battleships and therefore cannot expect to win out except by advantages of tech and numbers.
Frigates do not necessarily pose a threat to battleships but enjoy reasonable immunity from their agility. This increases closer up.
Homeworld anybody?
Same follows for weapons. If people insist on fitting the largest heaviest stuff to Battleships then they should not expect combat efficiency against frigates and the faster/more agile cruisers. Mxing the weapons to include smaller weapons would then give BS some protection aganst frigates for example.
Thus a mix of ships and weapons makes the most effective fleet, just ask admiral akbar! The bigger the better should not dominate!
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:12:00 -
[29]
with the new changes to tracking and fixes to surgical strike and ammo ranges I think you have what you wanted. Battles will definately last longer now.
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Beowulf I
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:24:00 -
[30]
Of cuase once they fix the ammo, stacking issues, bugs etc that M0O and others are using 'ie game bugs' we will have a lot of this 'cair bear' rubbish posts.
While some can 'exploite' errors in the game the is OK to have a 5 second combat as its easy and does not need tatics, but fix the game and it gets hard and then tatics are needed. Then PVP will be fun
Beowulf
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db30
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:26:00 -
[31]
why dont we use just one weapon? and who fires first wins?
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Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:33:00 -
[32]
The tactics should be to encourage scissor paper stone approach. You shouldn't have a weapon or a ship that beats all others.
Having high-slot EW goes towards this. A ship kitted with a stupidly high ECM will mean ships will have to forgoe weapon enhancement modules and use lock enhancement modules or ECCM instead, of course a ship devoted to EW isn't going to put up much of a fight ...
At the moment defensive EW is either hit or miss, if you've got the right ECM then it'll block 100%, otherwise no effect, whereas offensive weapon/ammo combinations will simply do a little less damage if they aren't quite "tuned" to the armor/shield resistance.
x a n e |
Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:35:00 -
[33]
just ask admiral akbar!
It's a trap !
x a n e |
Bekka
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:49:00 -
[34]
I totally agree with all the points made the original poster.
1) There needs to be a balance between how hard it is to obtain combat equipment (ships, in our case) and how hard it is to lose it. Something that takes weeks to acquire shouldn't take seconds to go to waste.
2) 5 seconds combat is the nail in the coffin of any game. Just watch it. Axelay, you are right that a battleship shouldn't take minutes to shoot down what you call a "recreational cruiser", but it's not a well balanced system either if ONE shot of a battleship can destroy all the shields of a MOA and then some armor too. It's still a cruiser after all, not a small frigate, and even if it doesn't have any hardeners or other defensive modules loaded, it should still be able to withstand a bit more damage.
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KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2003.07.03 09:56:00 -
[35]
I think some people, genrally the stupid people who dont actually read the post, just flame/whine for the sake of it, are missing the point.
He is not complaining about losing his ship par se (well not much anyway), he is saying that if he is to lose such a valuable asset, he wants to be able to enjoy the battle.
I have never heard of a Space Sim, where a fight between 2 craft of equal strength (Moa v Moa) can take less than 6 seconds, its stupid, and gives not time for tactical manouvre, clever play etc. Its just lock your turrets, a nd poen fire.
This needs fixing imho
Obviously there is NO way those 5 cruisers can take out 2 bs, although with a decent amount of experience they could of hoped to take one, and run away with a couple of cruisers still intact, but it was a stupid "ambush" to say the least, no ecm, no real tactic other than "suprise!!!!.. **** I,m dead :)
Sounds like could of been fun though :)
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.03 10:12:00 -
[36]
Exactly KIAEddZ and Bekka.
As I said, my only point of reference was comparing combat between NPC Pirates vs. PC and other space sims. In all those expereinces a cruiser is *never* destroyed that quickly. I didnt expect to win but thought we could have some fun and learn some tactics.
BTW we did have ECM/ECCM but *I* didnt. My job was warpscramble then unload. I was also the most poorly eqipped ship there (I am the youngest player of Eve in terms of time in that group) and the initial plan was to get J0rt. Lord Zap was a surprise.
But even if I had instantly attempted to warp away as soon as I saw there were two BS I still would have died I imagine. As the Moa takes ages to warp up.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.07.03 10:28:00 -
[37]
"Or howabout some sort of 'automatic ECM' feature that kicks in as soon as someone attempts a lock"
Nice idea. The "reactive magnetometric (RM)targeting jammer I", or rather go for the "reactive LADAR targeting jammer" ? I¦d love to make that choice, heheh.
It¦s really a nice idea but I don¦t think we¦ll see something like this in the game anytime soon.
Back to topic and my opinion on it:
1. Combat should last longer. It¦s simple. You work one hell of a time for the stuff you get in this game which is ok, no pain no gain. Therefor it¦s only fair that you can enjoy fighting in that 10+ million cruiser for AT LEAST a minute before you go poof. No matter if you¦re poorly equipped or whatever.
YEAH OK you might be a dumbass for using basic modules and other basic stuff only but to hell with it you spent weeks on getting that stuff so you deserve FUN (to the hardcore superl337 24/7 gamers: FUN is when you start smiling and feel all fuzzy and stuff) even when you loose.
Additionally I think that using market-modules only should still give you a fair chance of at least lasting a while. Not everyone can go out to loot the biggest pirates or whatever, so even with market modules they should at least last a while even if they don¦t have a real chance.
It¦s just not funny losing stuff you worked on for weeks in just a few seconds. And don¦t give me that "oh you equipped market modules you deserved to die in 3 shots". Even when you¦re a newbie and run a around with a non-optimal outfit you should still be able to enjoy the game. And you can¦t enjoy the game when battles where you¦re sitting in a 10/15+ million cruiser last 5 seconds.
Don¦t act like this has anything to do with skills or hardcore-gaming skill or whatever you wanna call it, it¦s unbalanced... hell it¦s not even balanced at all and you know it so quit acting like you¦re the all skilled superpilot and the others deserved death cause they¦re so n00b. The game¦s combat system is totally unbalanced in terms of ship-to-ship damage. Period.
2. I think the balance problem between the ship-classes aren¦t the ships themselves, it¦s the weapons, tracking speed to be precise.
IMO the actual problem is that huge battleship guns are able to hit small and fast ships like frigates, wrecking them with damage they can¦t take of course. This is wrong.
You don¦t stand in your room trying to smash flies with a baseball bat do you? No, you take some smaller thing like a rolled newspaper that hits fast enough for the fly NOT to dodge the "shot"... that newspaper doesn¦t do as much damage as your baseball bat however which means (you know what comes) that you won¦t try to smack that 250 pound bodybuilding supermuscle Hulk with a newspaper, you¦ll take the bat.
It¦s as simple as that. Large guns should NOT be able to hit frigates because they move to fast. The tracking speed of all guns has to be adjusted so they fit the size of the gun. Large guns only hit battleships and cruisers properly when they fly full speed. Medium guns hit frigates properly WHEN the frigs aren¦t moving at full speed or are up close to the turret, swarming around it. Small guns hit everything, but they don¦t do the enormous amounts of damage you might need to kill that cruiser or battleship.
Now what does this mean? It¦s simple but effective. When sitting in that battleship with let¦s say 10 hi-slots you will have to CHOOSE CAREFULLY what types of guns you take. When you only equip large guns it¦s obvious that you can give cruisers and other battleships a real smacking, BUT you won¦t be able to hit frigates at all. Frigates however with their small turrets and fast speed can dodge each and every shot off your big guns while they constantly penetrate your shields with funny little shots "wrecking you" for 40 damage... constantly for 10 minutes straight... together with a fleet of cruisers doing the same with their medium turrets... "Captain we have a problem!"... poof goes the battleship.
Perhaps you should have chosen a more diverse loadout with some small turrets to defend yourself against those raiding frigs around you? Perhaps you should have taken some missile launchers with light missiles to blast them? Maybe some drones would have done the job? Maybe you should have used some defender missiles to keep those missile-frigates from blasting your newbie-battleship-pilot-butt with torpedoes? All of these questions should be valid and they show that there is still a LOT of balancing to do.
If you ever want to have battles with more than 2 classes of ships involved (cruisers, bships) and actually some tactics going on then you need to modify the weapons where it makes sense: tracking speed.
IMO tracking speed and the balancing of it is the only option you have when you want to make frigates useful in this game CCP. And to be honest... I¦ve played for more than 11 years now, I think I can safely say that I know what I¦m talking about.
Mai's Idealog |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.07.03 10:38:00 -
[38]
MaiLina, l think we are on exactly the same wavelength. It's unlikely the DEVs will read this post. Has this 'suggestion' been made to them, or can it be communicated?
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ABNTanker
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Posted - 2003.07.03 11:43:00 -
[39]
I knew something wasnt right when Jort and Ywev lost there battleships in mere seconds fighting 2 other battleships hehe. It will get sorted in time my only question is how much time. |
Kelewan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 11:45:00 -
[40]
I didn't realise this game had been out for 11 years!? :) only joking mate.
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"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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IZON
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Posted - 2003.07.03 11:49:00 -
[41]
Thank you MiaLina, you've hit the nail on the head. I do hope the devs read this, as amply demonstrated by m0o, it shows that carrying a big stick does very little for game strategy or enjoyable pvp. A fleet of 15 or 20 frigates should, by rights, be capable of inflicting serious damage to a BS equipped only with Uber guns, it's a pitty this wasn't noticed sooner in beta.
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Lallante
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Posted - 2003.07.03 12:18:00 -
[42]
You Guys have ALL missed a major point that creating 1min + battles will bring about:
If it takes a min or more to kill a ship, you basically put and end to killing and any unconsensual pvp:
If it takes 10secs for you to lose the last of your armor, you have plenty of time to warp away or jump. The only time this is not the case is when you are both warpscrambled and double! webified (single webify reduces cruiser speed to about 50m/s - 60m/s. in a min, 3000m - 3600m = often enough to jump in a jumpgate) , but WHO has the cap to keep all these up (using 3 mid slots) and still shoot for more than a minute. Ans: its not possible, so a dmgd craft will always be able to escape except in rare cases where a dedicated EW ship is used to hold them in place. In that situation youll need 3 ships, 1 EW 2 fighters, or the trapped ship will just kill the EW ship and run (EW ships have less shields/armor usually).
Likewise, if you have 1 min to escape, you will never have to fight unless you dont want to. Trust me i know, even as it is now, where 5secs can kill a cruiser, even while webified 5 secs is occasionally enough (20% of the time) for the cruiser to get to a gate.
So if you whack up battle time you need to make escaping harder, quadruple all Caps etc, which in turn means you need to quadruple warp cap requirements and reblalance 90% of modules.
So basically to make the game balanced in the way you suggest and still make non-consensual or to-the-death PvP a viable option, youd need to rebalance 90% of all other things in EvE. As it is, im sure CCP will do somthing similar to what you say without a major overhaul and make PvP near enough impossible (which is somewhat like what Pann seems to want..)
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.03 12:30:00 -
[43]
No you dont lallante - that arguement is old and tired - the dog wont run.
You just need to use warp and stasis in a ship capable of maintaining it.
Whether that means, as I suggested months ago, that the energy cost on scrambler devices needs to go down is another matter...whether it means the Scoorpion is now a good ship to use and you just dont have the BP.. whatever.
But its not 90% changes, it one change too 2 item series.
Piece of cake - don't get all dramatic and "the sky is falling down".
Same goes to all of m0o who've infected themselves with a feeling of doom and gloom.
Snap out of it guys and play the damn game instead - you're not the cause of these changes so don't go thinking you were or that you're facing a perpetual nerf-future.
Adapt.
If you go the way of 99.99% of "beta hands" in other games - then thats no surprise. Rush to the "top", say there's nothing, leave.
3 months after you're gone there is lots.
Never changes - welcome to the world of MOGs.
Stay-go, but dont play the martyr please. Its not true... but if you're going to sit in a circle and bemoan your own fate for the rest of your time here - then please leave now.
Ive got all the time in the world for m0o but not for whingers. You're turning into whingers.
Any support and respect there exists for m0o is rapidly fading away under this avalanche of self-pity.
Stop it.
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Lallante
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:05:00 -
[44]
sorry "Morkt Drak
Caldari
Big Bang Burger Bar"
I had no idea youd blockaded dozens of gates and therefore know what the hell your talking about.
Because you see, Even with warpscrambling and stasis (as I have mentioned), In 1 min I guarantee in 90% of cases the target will have jumped (and in 1/2 the remaining cases, the target will have better med slot items and so will have killed you)
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:12:00 -
[45]
Then work together.
You are m0o. If you are truly masters of ownage, you will adapt and dedicate a cruiser to the task. You can adapt, you have the items, expertise and the time.
Don't cry nerf, please, it really, really doesn't suit you very well.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:13:00 -
[46]
I love how all of these 'experts' are so quick to tell us how PvP will be.
We can't even get credit for knowing how PvP works DESPITE the fact that 90% of the people on the boards hate us because we are so good at it...
_____
m0o
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:15:00 -
[47]
None of us are really crying.
We will definately still be killing you all.
It's just that you guys will no longer have ANY CHANCE of beating us after the patch.
And the biggest thrill in the game is when you guys come at us in huge numbers and shoot to kill.
This will no longer be dangerous for us, and thus the thrill will be gone.
This is the only thing about the changes that upsets us.
_____
m0o
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:19:00 -
[48]
The groups that assaulted you, were they well thought out or were they purely dmg output mostrosities?
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:28:00 -
[49]
Here lallante, let me ruin your life and your entire arguement.
next patch new feature:
no use of jumpgates within 15 seconds of firing or being fired upon.
oops, you lose. |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:40:00 -
[50]
"The only time this is not the case is when you are both warpscrambled and double! webified (single webify reduces cruiser speed to about 50m/s - 60m/s. in a min, 3000m - 3600m = often enough to jump in a jumpgate) , but WHO has the cap to keep all these up (using 3 mid slots) and still shoot for more than a minute. Ans: its not possible, so a dmgd craft will always be able to escape except in rare cases where a dedicated EW ship is used to hold them in place. In that situation youll need 3 ships, 1 EW 2 fighters, or the trapped ship will just kill the EW ship and run (EW ships have less shields/armor usually)."
Seriously you guys are the last ones I¦ve expected to hear saying THAT. You claim to be so specialist and you claim to be so cool team-players that get everything done because they play as a team and know how things work. This would actually be an evironment where you could PROVE that you have guts for more than blasting something within 5 seconds and now you come up telling us how unfair that would be and how easily people could escape because your ships wouldn¦t be able to maintain a scrambling for more than a minute WHILE your guns are shooting them? It¦s funny really.
The answer is so simple it¦s hilarious. 2 ships buddy, 1 ECM for scrambling, 1 gunboat to get the sucker down. Really I¦m feeling kind of irritated having to tell you that... the uber PvPers who have blocked gazillions of gates and who know oh so good what PvP is and how it works/should work. Let me just tell you you¦re not the only ones who know how PvP and game-balance works. There are lots of people here who have been playing computergames for several years so don¦t come acting like you¦re the almighty ubercorp who know everything.
The PvP environment we¦re talking about doesn¦t mean that anyone can get away easily at all. It just requires TACTICS AND TEAMWORK to get the things you¦re talking about done. And from what I¦ve seen so far especially m0o claim to be just that, a group of PvPers who use tactics and teamplay.
To clarify let me just give you an example of the thing you like to do most of the time, stargate camping:
Successfully camping a stargate as a group of pirates requires a well balanced team. You need at least one ECM ship to maintain warpscrambling and back the gunboats up with tracking-uplinks and maybe cap&shield transfer arrays. You need at least 2 gunboats with heavy weaponry, most likely for medium to short range because that¦s where you¦ll face the enemy. If you really want to do it tight you come with a secondary ECM boat to webify people. A blackbird, 4 webs on it... should make em move backwards ;)
Easy thing. ECM boats jam, disrupt target¦s weapons, webify. Gunboats open fire in case the victim doesn¦t do what you want em to do. They don¦t comply? Well... blast em. Yeah you¦d take a minute to shoot that cruiser down so what? He can¦t move anyway, gives you a nice funny minute watching that ant trying to hold the legs your pulling out of his body one by one in that minute.
You get the point? Don¦t give me this "they can run away easily" bs... you know it¦s not true. It would just mean that you as a pirate would have to do more than press "fire". And it would mean that your victims would have to do a little more than trying to warp away.
It would mean... CHALLENGE!! Something you guys claim to be searchig for.
Mai's Idealog |
Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:10:00 -
[51]
After the patch, didn't they say that Warp Scramble and Webification are "hostile acts", isn't that going to dampen pirate action at all ?
x a n e |
Solomani il Xafra
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Posted - 2003.07.07 00:08:00 -
[52]
Ok, so the new patch has been out for a coupla days. Has PvP changed at all? Is it longer? Shorter?
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.07.07 00:13:00 -
[53]
I don't know. I don't want to get shot in 2 seconds by a BS again, so I'd better not try.
Maybe a corp owning some can post some post-patch data.
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.07 00:34:00 -
[54]
<<<<I had no idea youd blockaded dozens of gates and therefore know what the hell your talking about.>>>
Well, now you do.
Here - Free Fries!
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.07.07 00:52:00 -
[55]
Everyone get battle ships - problem solved.
Say cheese!
Why did I ever read this whole thread - I must be loosing it :) .
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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