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OMG Pulse Laser Nerf

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mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.02 23:15:00 - [1] Originally by: Selim And... the fact that lasers don't need to reload, ever, is a significant DOT bonus. DoT calcs should by their very definition take into account the 10 second reload time every X seconds. If they don't then they aren't valid. I'll most likely have more to say tomorrow when its NOT "just got home from the pub" time. These kind of posts ALWAYS show up after I've been drinking
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 10:41:00 - [2] Originally by: Rod Blaine All in all. The megapulse needed a change. And I think it hasn't been finished yet. Not because ion blasters suck in comparison, because they don't aside from their cap use (I assume a webbed target, which will increase their dot reasonably in most cases). But because the megapulse still does way too much damage over way too much range. And more importantly, it is medium range. I have't really been able to absorb all this yet, but lets just start here. It looks like the MP's optimal with MF has been cut to about 10km. Thats exactly what we all seemed to want in the last big thread. We also got the Radio crystal damage reduction, which was discussed previously. We also saw Hammer say that he might look at hybrids in the future regarding overall damage and cap use. What more do you want?
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:42:00 - [3] Originally by: Rod Blaine after all, tis more about the medium range domination then anything else for me. If they no longer are a no-brainer and we'd see less domination of emdium range by amarr ships, its fine with me One of the benefits of this I think is the inability to hit everything that jumps or warps in at 15 perfectly using the highest damaging ammo. Sit me in my gank'a'geddon right on a stargate and any BS that jumps thru or warps in at 15 is in perfect range currently for my most damaging crystals. Even at the 20km mark I could stick with MF. Now I need to rethink that I'm starting to think that while these changes (especially the crystal ones) are gunna take me some time to get my head around, they seem pretty good so far. So far though I do agree with everyone regarding the small Pulse turrets. Please for the love of god leave them alone. It seems so balanced right now, at least between inties (as an example). Theres a good chance my Crusader will kill someone in a Taranis, but its far from assured! It comes down to skills and the pilot in that situation, and that seems right.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 13:20:00 - [4] Hammer, I'd really like to see the Small Turret graph comparing a Dual Light Pulse 2 with whatever it should be compared against in the Proj and Hybrid areas. I don't know anyone that really uses Med Pulses on interceptors. Alternatively can you give us the math you used to create those graphs? I don't mind fooling around in Excel
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 13:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 03/03/2005 13:34:19 by the looks of it, its just base ammo dmgturret modifier graphed vs optimal/falloff range Yes but its the math behind the falloff I'd be interested in. Originally by:* Hakera Im not sure what different T2 would make as T2 turret vs another T2 turret is the same thing as they are factored up by the same ratio. T2 or T1, I don't really care, but my request was a bit selfish since I use almost entirely T2 gear now-a-days.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Every single Amarr ship that does not get a damage bonus is now crap. Why? The damage output of the guns is more or less not changed, except using Radio's as an example. The shorter crystals are doing the same overall amount of damage as before. The guns aren't getting a dmg mod or RoF nerf (least I can't find any evidence of that). So how does a dmg bonus on a ship have anything to do with this?
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Lallante Tell me: With an optimal nerf and no increase to tracking: How does a retrubution HIT a frig without a Web. How did it hit frigs before? Originally by: Lallante If it uses a web, HOW does it get in range without a MWD? Whats changed? Nothing. You just use a slightly longer range crystal.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Elve Sorrow Every single Amarr ship that does not get a damage bonus is now crap. Why? The damage output of the guns is more or less not changed, except using Radio's as an example. The shorter crystals are doing the same overall amount of damage as before. The guns aren't getting a dmg mod or RoF nerf (least I can't find any evidence of that). So how does a dmg bonus on a ship have anything to do with this? Like i said in my post. The advantage lasers had over other guns was range. You could orbit outside webrange, and still do a bit of damage without getting instantly owned by a Taranis. Now, youre gonna have to get close. You get webbed, and you wont be able to web that Taranis back. Which ships are we talking about here?? Inty vs. Inty or Inty vs. Assault, etc? Inty vs. Inty: Crusader or Malediction can both use webs. I'd really like the see a graph using Dual Light Pulse, instead of Med Pulse though. Inty vs. Assault: Assaults aren't really supposed to be the "get in fast and web" type ships anyhow.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Please do tell how a Crusader can web. A Malediction can, but that thing relies on missiles anyway. It has 2 med slots. MWD and web work just fine. In fact sticking a web on a Crusader can work quite well, since it gets a tracking bonus using a web means you just hit better. You can go for an MWD and scrambler too if you like. Most frigate/interceptor fights are over extremely quickly anyhow, so its not always necessaray to have a scrambler. If you're using a scrambler in that slot you're most likely within web range anyhow, since using a 20km scrambler is dumb and kills your cap very quickly. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that you CAN'T orbit outside web range after these changes. Need to get on Sisi and check that in particular.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Elve Sorrow If you fit a web, which ofcourse you can, every target runs. So you need a scrambler. Bull. The Crus dishes out some extremely nice damage, and can often kill a frig or inty before they get a chance to run. Its not 100% of course, but it works. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Using a disruptor on my Crusader has worked fine for me the last 9 months thankyouverymuch. Intersting, but I don't believe you'r going to kill much using that. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Originally by: Elve Sorrow You can if you use beams! Oh wait, cant fit those...Dual Light beams then? Wait, ****poor damage. Have you been onto Sisi yet and verified that you CAN'T orbit outside web range and hit? Thats what I need to do, but am currently trapped at work. If you have, please tell me all the details.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Elve Sorrow If you have a way to magically kill another Interceptor / Frigate within the 4 seconds they need to align and warp, please enlighten the rest of us. Get close and use MF. Risky, but trust me, it works. Originally by: Elve Sorrow I dont need to go on SiSi and test it, because thats the way it works on TQ as is. Dual Light Beams manage to hit, last i checked you got 16km optimal with them. But like i said, their damage is so ****poor another Interceptor with a single Small Rep (Which even Crows fit these days) can TANK it, without running any hardening whatsoever. Right, so once we've done that, we'll continue this arguement I also think that perhaps the Small Beams fitting requirements could be looked at as well, might be nice to be able to use them more often in more realistic setups.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Just to add another note to the discussion. Mega Pulse are medrange weapons right? We all agree on that. Thats where some of don't agree though. If the Mega Pulse we're a medium range weapon then it should be doing similar damage to other guns in that sort of class. Not similar damage to blasters. Thats what basically sparked off all the huge Mega Pulse threads recently.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.04 08:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Kronarty Look: Crystals are changed-> Beams use crystals-> Beams are changed. Actually after looking at the dev blog some more, Radio crystals actually got an increase in range, as did MW and Infrared. Slight decreases in damage as well. So Beams will have a bit longer ranges now, but slightly reduced damage using Radio. Switch to MicroWave and you've got close to same range as old Radio and very little less damage.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.04 09:00:00 - [14] Edited by: mahhy on 04/03/2005 09:00:33 Originally by: Citizen Angstrom ...But, as I understood Hammer's post, the reasons for the tinkering were to nerf the too-powerful Pulse lasers? With an implication that the Gank-a-Geddon was at fault? Why reduce the lasers across the board? It is disingenuous to say that beam lasers are not being nerfed as well as pulses, given the laser crystal nerf. I agree with several previous posters: change one thing at a time. Do the pulse nerf first, then consider ammo changes/nerf to lasers later. The PULSES got a range reduction. Thats it. The Radio, MW and Infrared crystals got a range INCREASE and a slight damage decrease. The damage decrease is most notable on the Radio crystal, BUT now the Radio doesn't do anymore overall damage than any other longest range ammo. Thats fair. Originally by: Citizen Angstrom On a side note, amusingly enough, I own three BS currently: a Raven, an Apoc, and a Geddon (no, I don't gank, I am a carebear and proud of it). So... these proposed changes (missiles are up for the nerf bat next, right?) are going to hurt me bad... I'm sorry, but if you're a carebear I'm guessing you don't PvP a lot? If that's true I really don't see how this will hurt you at all. I've said it before, don't use Mega Pulse on the Apoc. Use Mega Beams or Tachs or even Dual Heavy Beams/Pulse. Mega Pulse are so much better on the Arma, and still will be for PvP.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.04 12:03:00 - [15] Originally by: fras I had no idea dual pulses were being changed too. I went on the test server last night and my previous 14km+ range on dual light pulse II with radios has been dropped to 10km. 10km with Radio? Damnit. This is why I wanted Hammer to produce graphs using the DLP2. I wonder how good or bad my Crusader will be after this one
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 08:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Nafri no it was just that there was no need to make a decision when to fit a amarr ceptor, cause medium pulses were always the best you can think of Dual Light Pulse 2. It allows you to fit a Heatsink 2. With the right skills you actually outdamage a Taranis, if the Taranis isn't fitting a dmg mod. Med Pulse 2 are too tight to fit. And everyone thats moaning about the small pulse range reduction, go do the math. You still outrange a Taranis. You also still do almost exactly the same amount of damage if you're not fitting a heatsink, or more if you do. Just means you have to get closer. Fun
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 08:51:00 - [17] Edited by: mahhy on 08/03/2005 08:56:14 Originally by: Phades Er, how is a 2.4 damage mod with a 2.7 rof base and a 25% damage bonus compare to a 3.375 damage mod with a 3 rof and a 50% damage bonus? Do the math. Its not just about base module attributes. Take into account all the skills like Rapid Fire, Gunnery, Small Energy/Hybrid, Surgical Strike, Small Pulse/Blaster Spec, Interceptor, Sharshooter, and Trajectory Analysis all at level 5 for both pilots, any implants you want and dmg mods. Then consider that the Crusader has 4 turrets, versus the Taranis 3 turrets. If the Taranis is not fitting a dmg mod (and since I'm not a Taranis pilot I have no idea how common this would be) the Crusader will outdamage it, while at the same time having greater range and an armor rep (again, don't know how common this is on Taranis') EDIT: Basically what I'm trying to point out is that in some situations the Crusader will be better than the Taranis, or any other Interceptor for that matter. Its not a gauruntee, its not going to happen every time, but then there isn't supposed to be a "I Win Every Time" fitting/button.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 08:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Phades Yeah, but the skills just create a ratio between the base guns so the relative change with the same skills would be the same. The difference would occur durring reload times i guess, but that isnt what i forgot about. I already made it clear. If the Taranis is not fitting a dmg mod, the common Crusader, DLP2, HS2 setup will outdamage it. I also said I don't know how common that would be, but thats beside the point. Its about illustrating that you will win with a Crusader sometimes. You'll also lose sometimes.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 09:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Phades Actually if the taranis only had 1 low slot, perhaps 2, that might be valid, but having 3 they will always have the option to do so when fitting ions. shrug Its not about a gauruntee
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 09:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Phades So its balanced if umm the taranis doesnt want to do the most damage it can? I guess you can color me puzzled. Wouldnt that be akin to a thorax not using a mwd, or a armageddon not trying to maximise damage by overloading the lows with all damage mods? sigh - lower skilled pilots - ship fittings might not be optimal (idiot pilots, very common) - range (fit a web on the crus f.ex) Theres lots of reasons the Taranis I go up against may not be able to kill me before I kill him. Its not just a black and white "the Taranis does the greatest damage!". When you have pulse lasers doing quite nice damage (sometimes comparable to blasters) at greater ranges than blasters, is that not exactly the definition of "balance" in this game? Nothing is supposed to be able to outdamage a blaster 1v1, but then the other turrets can play the range card which the blaster can't.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 11:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Julien Derida Crusader w/ 4xDLP + 1 Damage Mod > Taranis w/ 3xIons + 0 Damage Mods Its oh-so-slightly more powerful than a Taranis with 3x Neutrons too. But by a very small margin. But as other people have said its not every Taranis you meet thats going to NOT be wearing a dmg mod. And we still have range too. Now its a decision to either fit for range and be a tackler without a lot of punch, or fit for damage, go close and use a web. If we had some improvements to the small beams we might have a bit more flexibility, but it doesn't seem that's going to be happening anytime soon.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Grut comparing the dot of dlp to ions is kindof pointless... at close range the taranis' guns track fine, dlp dont Web.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Phades Then if you begin to beat him out on raw dps, then he will warp out and just come back or change ships.... Right? Wasnt the entire style of the crusader a struggle of positioning to keep the other guy at bay or too close to be useful? Or die before they warp. If people refuse to believe that a Crusader with a web can work, fine, obviously nothing will change that opinion. I'm done arguing this one...
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 13:25:00 - [24] Originally by: fras Anyway, theoritically if a crusader fit 4x medium pulse II & a damage mod(adds 24%) it would do roughly the same damage as a Taranis with 3x light neutron II and no damage mods. I was only doing the math for Dual Light Pulse 2's, never even considered Med Pulse 2's
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.09 07:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Nafri all you need is to stay out of webbing and in warp disurptor range Just read the "R.I.P. Fun" thread by DigitalCommunist, and hes saying webs now have an optimal of 18km (no I haven't been on the test server yet). If thats the case, is there ANY frig/inty/assault that can operate effectively outside web range? Need to pull out my old Crow and check it, but I think pretty much all turret based frigs will 99% of the time be within web range now. That both levels the playing field, and makes short range setups more difficult.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.11 07:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Hyey Its easier if you look at it this way. Training amarr large lasers up to lvl 5 is pretty much equivlant to $9 due to time invested. Now with such an investment it can be very annoying seeing a gun you spent months of time on to be nerfed to hell and back. Actually I think its easier of you DON'T consider the actualy RL money you're putting into the game, and just play the game to have fun Training skills is not playing, at least IMO, so really I'm not too worried about how much time it take to train or re-train anything. I'd prefer to be out in my Inty or whatever doing something.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.16 08:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Archfish Originally by: Warnings I like a graphe with torpedos pls, 450 dmg of 0m to 100km GOOD ! Yes please! Damage over time at 100km please, damage over time at 50km please... oh, maybe that deflates your entire point Well assuming that the torps reach their target at 50 or 100km they will most likely outdamage any Amarr+MP setup But yah, hes kinda got no point.

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