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Ston Momaki
Caldari Disciples of Ston
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:53:00 -
[1]
Wait, I know you are disappointed. I am not an Amarrian. Sometimes people do not take opportunities to speak their conscience unless they are directly invited to do so. Inertia holds us back. ôLet someone else startö, we say. I opened this topic to provide a place for Amarrians to speak for Abolition. I am not so nanve to think that there will not be those who speak against abolition as well, but we need to provide at least a forum, where the Amarrian capsuleer may begin to express convictions against slavery.
So, who will be the first brave Amarrian to step forward?
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Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
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Posted - 2011.08.30 19:23:00 -
[2]
Nahhh, the public forum is good enough to get a target... (in case someone talks, we got big guns aimed at him/her). hehe --------------------------------------------------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
ISAAC ASIMOV |
Malcolm Khross
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.30 19:29:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 19:31:01 Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 19:30:45
Originally by: Ston Momaki Wait, I know you are disappointed. I am not an Amarrian. Sometimes people do not take opportunities to speak their conscience unless they are directly invited to do so. Inertia holds us back. ôLet someone else startö, we say. I opened this topic to provide a place for Amarrians to speak for Abolition. I am not so nanve to think that there will not be those who speak against abolition as well, but we need to provide at least a forum, where the Amarrian capsuleer may begin to express convictions against slavery.
So, who will be the first brave Amarrian to step forward?
Did ye miss the posts o' some Amarrians? There be a litter o' abolitionist speech for ye to find here on IGS by Amarrians. 'Sides, I've personally spoken with a couple o' Amarrians that nay be too shiny on slavery but vocally speakin' 'gainst it seems to cause problems for 'em and may compromise what they be tryin' to accomplish.
If they speak out for ye, good on 'em but do nay think they do nay exist just 'cause they nay be vocal 'bout it. Sometimes discretion be the better part o' valor.
---------------------------------- ~Captain Malcolm Khross
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Ston Momaki
Caldari Disciples of Ston
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Posted - 2011.08.30 21:21:00 -
[4]
Mr. Khross,
Yes, I have heard the discussion if you are referring to the intellectual waltz that people are dancing around the issue; the chin rubbing; the throat clearing; the pedagogy. That is not what is called for. Never in history has there been a movement for abolition without words strong enough to evoke the pointing of cannons and the threats of death. Abolition requires a stand that rejects the notion that discretion is the better part of valor. Discretion in this case displaces valor. Now is the time for risk. Now is the time for open repentance. Words like, ôI repent of my slave holding.ö ôSlavery is wrong, always.ö ôI am emancipating all my slaves and joining the cause of abolition.ö
Finally, cut the accent, it is irritating beyond words. No one "writes" with an accent.
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Graelyn
Amarr Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:27:00 -
[5]
There are many, and the number was growing for some time. Even a few Holders began to suggest re-evaluating the practice.
Then the Elders invaded the Empire, and the more conservative voices squelched the abolitionists. Empress Jamyl's proclamation was nigh miraculous in such a political climate.
Still, as long as this proxy war remains unresolved, I doubt you'll see any real developments. A few abolitionists remain, but the wise among them are quiet for now.
There are several Amarrian capsuleers who wish to see the practice end as well, which counts for just about nothing...
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Malcolm Khross
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.30 23:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 23:04:05
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Finally, cut the accent, it is irritating beyond words. No one "writes" with an accent.
Detecting a bit o' impatience and irritation there, love. I write this way because it be the way I talk. Does nay make sense to change the way ye interact with people just 'cause the medium changes. I also use voice-to-text so the spellin' and such be from the translation. If ye nay like it, I nay be forcin' ye to read it.
Do nay see me jumpin' the alarm o'er your insistence to begin most o' your posts with all caps like some sort o' "look at me, I be important" callsign, or the fact that ye feel the need to impress your own standpoints and agendas on e'eryone else like ye always got the moral highground, or that ye often speak in parabolic imagery or flamboyant artistry to make yerself seem more wise, savvy?
'Sides, I were nay criticizin' ye, so there be little need to get your knickers all twisted up. Were just bringin' somethin' to your attention. What you're demanding be done could bring 'bout more harm than good and could compromise the ones what stand for exactly what you're wanting 'em to. Nary a good thing will come o' e'eryone standin' up to be shot down.
---------------------------------- ~Captain Malcolm Khross
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.08.30 23:08:00 -
[7]
The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves. (Jamyl Sarum)
It's amusing to see that some so-called "loyalists" clinging to their chains of hatred that have caused so many problems for the Empire, and even speak up against their own empress if her will is against their personal preferences.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.08.30 23:49:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ston Momaki
So, who will be the first brave Amarrian to step forward?
I'm number one!
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Ston Momaki
Caldari Disciples of Ston
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Posted - 2011.08.31 01:40:00 -
[9]
"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.31 10:52:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki "Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I
Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".
I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar Teraa Matar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki "Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I
Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".
I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?
Quoting for Mr. Crow.
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.08.31 13:39:00 -
[12]
I have always be in favor of a slavery global reform, and have never hiden it. It is not my main motivation, but it is part of what I believe.
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki "Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I
Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".
I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?
I assume you are aware of the word "new", in "New Reclaming" ? If not, of course, please explain the contradiction between the coronation speach made by the Empress and your outdated meaning of Reclaiming. I must have missed something, or otherwise your statement would imply that the Empress is incoherent. |
Vaari
Amarr Imperial Pharmacy
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:54:00 -
[13]
What is abolition?
This beginning. This birth of life. This dawn of greatness. I can not fail, for I have the Emperor to lead me and destiny to follow. undefined |
Malcolm Khross
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Vaari What is abolition?
Err...ye bein' serious, lad?
Abolition be the annulment, destruction or cessation o' something. Or, politically, it refers to the end of slavery.
---------------------------------- ~Captain Malcolm Khross
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lyn Farel I have always be in favor of a slavery global reform, and have never hiden it. It is not my main motivation, but it is part of what I believe.
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki "Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I
Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".
I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?
I assume you are aware of the word "new", in "New Reclaming" ? If not, of course, please explain the contradiction between the coronation speach made by the Empress and your outdated meaning of Reclaiming. I must have missed something, or otherwise your statement would imply that the Empress is incoherent.
There's a difference between a New Reclaiming and a new Reclaiming. I'll leave you to work out what it is.
My view on this is quite simple really, and it's something that I've been explaining for many years now.
Slavery is a neccessity in some cases, but not a timeless one.
Consider the Ni-Kunni and the Udorians. They were Reclaimed, and they were enslaved. Once they were sufficiently civilised, they were released.
The Khanid embraced God's word without complaint, and so they were not enslaved. But you might say that they were still Reclaimed.
The Ammatar were emanicpated along the same lines as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.
So you see, those that accept the civilising benevolence of the Amarr are treated as friends, and those who do not are enlightened about what it means to serve God before being released. It's the way the Empire has always done things. It's pretty much the policy espoused by both Heideran VII and Doriam II, and and of course Empress Jamyl has continued the policy with her emancipation of some Minmatar slaves.
There will no doubt come a time when slavery is no longer neccessary, and I for one am working towards that day. But one needs to appreciate what "approaching fast" means when one is talking about an Empire that has existed for tens of millenia.
As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.
I don't see that my viewpoint (which agrees with the Empress' one) as being at all incoherent, so if you are confused by it I must assume that there is a problem with your comprehension abilities.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Louella Dougans
Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:46:00 -
[16]
There are several abolitionist groups, e.g. the secret stairway.
They are as fanatic in their interpretation of scripture as any of the ultra-conservatives.
Be A Space Nun! It's Fun!! \o/ |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.08.31 21:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rodj Blake As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.
I don't see that my viewpoint (which agrees with the Empress' one) as being at all incoherent, so if you are confused by it I must assume that there is a problem with your comprehension abilities.
I think that the contradiction lies here. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
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Posted - 2011.09.01 00:44:00 -
[18]
It's only a contradiction if one holds abolition to be the end of slavery. _
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Malcolm Khross
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.09.01 01:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra It's only a contradiction if one holds abolition to be the end of slavery.
Err..that be kind o' what it means, lass.
Actually, forego the "kind o'" that be exactly what it means, 'less ye be tryin' to suggest it were used out o' context?
---------------------------------- ~Captain Malcolm Khross
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Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Definition of END
1
a : the part of an area that lies at the boundary b (1) : a point that marks the extent of something (2) : the point where something ceases to exist <world without end> c : the extreme or last part lengthwise : tip d : the terminal unit of something spatial that is marked off by units e : a player stationed at the extremity of a line (as in football) 2
a : cessation of a course of action, pursuit, or activity b : death, destruction c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue 3
: something incomplete, fragmentary, or undersized : remnant 4
a : an outcome worked toward : purpose <the end of poetry is to be poetry ù R. P. Warren> b : the object by virtue of or for the sake of which an event takes place 5
a : a share in an undertaking <kept your end up> b : a particular operation or aspect of an undertaking or organization <the sales end of the business> 6
: something that is extreme : ultimate ùused with the 7
: a period of action or turn in any of various sports events (as archery or lawn bowling)
If you think of the end of slavery as abolition and claim that this is the only way it can be understood, you seem to be only familiar with meaning 2a - If I get Admiral Blake right, he alluded more to something like 2c or 4, which is, to my understanding, perfectly reasonable. One could even say that "The end of slavery is freedom." without meaning that slavery has ever to be abolished, but rather that every single slave is meant to be reformed and enabled to allow them to participate in society as a free citizen and that, if he reaches a state in which he is able to do that, should be liberated.
Thus, slavery isn't an end in itself (as in, slavery is not the purpose of slavery) but rather a means to an end.
So, whilst with understanding end 9in the way of 2a produces a self-contradicting statement with what the Admiral said ("As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.") neither 2c nor 4 does so. Which would lead us to the conclusion that the meanings given by either 2c or 4 were the ones intended by Admiral Blake, while using 'end'.
Fatihfully, N. Mithra _
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Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:32:00 -
[21]
Maybe I should take the time to explain more explicitly what the Admiral has said, as far as I understand:
Once everyone has been reclaimed - through slavery or otherwise - slavery will cease to exist, as the natural result of proper slavery. There will simply cease to be people that need to be enslaved, in his view.
(Please correct me if I got you wrong there, Admiral.)
Faithfully N. Mithra |
Mitara Newelle
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra Maybe I should take the time to explain more explicitly what the Admiral has said, as far as I understand:
Once everyone has been reclaimed - through slavery or otherwise - slavery will cease to exist, as the natural result of proper slavery. There will simply cease to be people that need to be enslaved, in his view.
(Please correct me if I got you wrong there, Admiral.)
Faithfully N. Mithra
Of course Admiral Blake has the final say on the meaning of his words, but I believe you are correct, Lady Mithra.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.09.01 07:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 01/09/2011 07:30:10
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Originally by: Rodj Blake As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.
I don't see that my viewpoint (which agrees with the Empress' one) as being at all incoherent, so if you are confused by it I must assume that there is a problem with your comprehension abilities.
I think that the contradiction lies here.
It's no contradiction at all.
The sooner we get on with enslaving those who refuse to submit to God, the sooner we can get them or their descendents enlightened and release them.
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra Once everyone has been reclaimed - through slavery or otherwise - slavery will cease to exist, as the natural result of proper slavery. There will simply cease to be people that need to be enslaved, in his view.
You are correct.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:37:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 01/09/2011 10:37:11 Ah ! Clever. |
Malcolm Khross
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.09.01 12:25:00 -
[25]
Gotta admit, one can respect the fact that yer nay changin' yer original declaration to "enslave and enlighten" e'eryone.
Also gotta respect how many different ways one can interpret a statement and color it to be sayin' whate'er the cluster ye want it to be sayin'.
Good luck with yer continued conquest and such, if the Matari e'er get tired at shootin' at yer golden rumps, sure there be plenty more willin' to do so in their stead.
---------------------------------- ~Captain Malcolm Khross
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N'maro Makari
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:16:00 -
[26]
And who says slavers beat about the bush...
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Jason Galente
Gallente mishima ryu
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Posted - 2011.09.01 20:21:00 -
[27]
I understand it now. Slavery isn't just for economic gain, it serves another purpose. It brainwashes.
A true love for God can only come willingly, and that willingness must not be from negative outside influence forcing him to it. I'm talking about this 'fear-induced religion'. It would be far more effective a gesture to release at least a large portion of your slaves as an extension of God's true love and good will, rather than trying to force a love that they have no evidence exists due to the nature of their current situation.
Those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not be faint. |
Tiara Sikai
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Posted - 2011.09.02 15:56:00 -
[28]
As a holder myself, I am somewhat less than happy about the current state of slavery. While we are in the right (the Theology Council reaffirmed this time and again), we are not necessarily at the most effective state of affairs.
Few slaves can really be educated right now, even with Vitoc and other technologies of persuasion - and education is the institutions primary purpose. On the other hand, the economic incentive to keep slaves keeps getting slimmer and slimmer, with cost of upkeep and education already rivaling other options for many but the most menial and unskilled activities. I for one would not be averse to turning the remaining slaves loose - and allow those who desire to learn through submission to submit. The others are often wasted words, resources and ultimately lives. Let them see how they manage a budget, turn in a wage and not be assured their next meal will arrive on its own.
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ValentinaDLM
Minmatar Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
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Posted - 2011.09.02 19:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tiara Sikai ...I for one would not be averse to turning the remaining slaves loose - and allow those who desire to learn through submission to submit. The others are often wasted words, resources and ultimately lives. Let them see how they manage a budget, turn in a wage and not be assured their next meal will arrive on its own.
While I could care less about slavery in general (this may come as a surprise to some). I do see a very real danger in letting people who may not be loyal go unsupervised. Perhaps some sort of probationary period, where they are monitored is in order, lest we have more Republic spies than we already do in the Empire's space. Freed slaves seem to be a fertile recruiting ground for such people.
I see many such security concerns though, the fact that I don't have MIO agents shadowing me, someone of Brutor heritage, who spend a very short time in the Republic Military School, tells me that either the state of security is poor or it is so good that I don't notice them, and if it really is that good, then well, even if the MIO doesn't condone my associations outside of the empire they can't mind them too much.
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Manwe Todako
Minmatar Disciples of Ston
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Posted - 2011.09.02 19:36:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Manwe Todako on 02/09/2011 19:39:24 Edited by: Manwe Todako on 02/09/2011 19:37:14 Edit: This is a quotation of Ston from another thread. I thought it was well-worded
Emancipation should be immediate! Matriculation should be gradual!
Emancipation is the step of faith that seals the commitment to end slavery absolutely once and for all. Nothing less should be accepted. Matriculation is the commitment on the part of the emancipator to helping the former slave become a part of free society. MATRICULATION PREVENTS THE CHAOS EVERYONE IS SO WORRIED ABOUT.
Emancipation turns the slave into a matriculant. Matriculation turns the matriculant into a citizen.
Slave becomes matriculant becomes citizen
Is the process neat and tidy? No. The injustice of slavery has continued for centuries. The processes of immediate emancipation and gradual matriculation are the logical and just courses when a society falls under the conviction that its actions have been wrong and need to be corrected. There will be great expenses involved and much hard work, but this should not create a fear that prevents immediate emancipation. This immediate abolition and emancipation is as much for the slave holder as it is for the slave.
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