Stealth Bomber, look em up. Also: Bombs.

What you described is a stealth bomber. Only what you're calling torpedoes are currently called bombs in game.

Stealth bombers excel at taking out many small targets, not individual large ones. Torpedo boats are extremely dangerous to battleships, which is why destroyers (original short for torpedo boat destroyer) started being used to protect capital ships from them. They are a completely different ship, serving an entirely different purpose.

Bombs are used against small targets.

Torpedoes are used against large ones.

Bombs detonate 30km away from where they were launched. Torpedoes must be launched up close.

Torpedoes are launched by non-stealth craft smaller than frigates. Next are you going to try to tell me an elephant is a banana?

Did you even read the post? Bombs are used against small targets.

Gypsy Band would like a word with you

Stealth bombers excel at taking out many small targets. not individual large ones

[quote=Allophyl]Stealth bombers excel at taking out many small targets. not individual large ones

Actually... a well skilled Stealth Bomber pilot can lob Torpedos from 50+ km away. Using certain fits, you can even engage ~90 km away. Hardley "up close" weaponry when the average "close range" weapons typically have an effective envelope of ~5 to 30km (depending on the weapon).

the OP wants covert ops titans, which would be able to "sink" a ship with 1 hit (doomsday) but remain unseen most of the time, which basically is the concept of covert ops ships in eve.

Since what you're asking for is just a well-armed fast frigate, don't you want an assault frigate? Or maybe just a stealth bomber, designed for use with torpedoes and AOE bombs, and with a covops cloak fitted?

I see what OP is saying.
give us a bomber more tank more speed but no cloak or bomb launcher.
stealth bombers are more like submarines, they basically surface, unload and try to dissapear before noticed/attacked

give us an assault frig with 2 torp launchers and 2 guns? it be wierd ship but it could work.

the OP wants covert ops titans, which would be able to "sink" a ship with 1 hit (doomsday) but remain unseen most of the time, which basically is the concept of covert ops ships in eve.

Did you even read the post? Bombs are used against small targets. Torpedoes are used against large ones. Bombs detonate 30km away from where they were launched. Torpedoes must be launched up close. Bombs are AOE. Torpedoes are not. Bombs are launched by stealth frigates. Torpedoes are launched by non-stealth craft smaller than frigates. Next are you going to try to tell me an elephant is a banana?

Sorry to join the trolling, but if CCP does give you a Golem the size of s shuttle, your next post would surely be;

'WW2 never had Warrior 2s, ban them'

Am I wrong?

Regarding the other posts above: I'll accept that bombs are meant to be used against large targets and not small ones - I did only return to the game a couple of weeks ago after being gone for years. From what I've seen, a handful of well-placed bombs will wipe out all of the smaller ships in a battle, while only doing moderate damage to the larger ships, but I'm not so stubborn that I won't take your word for it that they're useful against large ships as well. In any case, even if they are meant to be used against larger ships, they are still significantly different from what I've proposed, in the ways I've already explained (30km range, AoE, carried by stealth vessels...).

Just because something happens to exist in the game that is *vaguely* similar doesn't mean that adding a new type of ship is a bad idea - and no matter how loud you yell, it's not going to change the fact that there are some *very* large, fundamental differences between stealth bombers and the torpedo boats that I'm proposing. Torpedo boats would basically be noob-friendly paper-thin kamikaze ships, and their addition (along with a role bonus to destroyers to counter them) would improve the usefulness of yet another noob-friendly ship which is currently very rarely used. Sure, it may be possible to train for a stealth bomber within a few weeks of starting, but that doesn't make it noob friendly - how exactly is this month-old character supposed to pay for all the stealth bombers she'll be using? A noob can train for an Apocalypse within a few weeks too, but that doesn't mean they should be flying one in pvp.

And for those that are complaining that "putting battleship-destroying weapons on a ship smaller than a frigate is overpowered", you're forgetting that 1. Their stats can be tweaked to ensure good balance and 2. Against a fleet with a handful of destroyers, it would take a large number of them to cause any significant damage. So, in exactly which scenario would you consider them to be OP?

Just because something happens to exist in the game that is *vaguely* similar doesn't mean that adding a new type of ship is a bad idea

- and no matter how loud you yell, it's not going to change the fact that there are some *very* large, fundamental differences between stealth bombers and the torpedo boats that I'm proposing.

Did you even read the post? Bombs are used against small targets.

It's not *vaguely* similar, it [stealth bomber] already does exactly what you proposed.



No, there aren't really any fundamental differences between the two at all.

As for noob friendly kamikazi stuff, that already is in the game. They are called frigates, and quite a few can take down battleships and even HACs.

It sounds like you're trying to 2-shot BS's with only a couple of these "PT boats".... which is pretty insane!!

In the absolute most simplistic sense possible, yes. But it's not that simple. For those two boats to even get through, against a competent and balanced fleet, there have to be at least a dozen or so of them to begin with, the rest likely having been popped before ever reaching their targets, and they may not even get off those two shots each before being popped themselves. So in reality, no, it's not "with only a couple of these PT boats", it's with a horde of them.

but the reality is dessies are not common

I can use my covop's alt to punt my gang on top of them... at ZERO.

In the absolute most simplistic sense possible, yes. But it's not that simple. For those two boats to even get through, against a competent and balanced fleet, there have to be at least a dozen or so of them to begin with, the rest likely having been popped before ever reaching their targets, and they may not even get off those two shots each before being popped themselves. So in reality, no, it's not "with only a couple of these PT boats", it's with a horde of them.

... right now. Obviously they would become a lot more common if this were implemented, which was a part of the whole point.


Uh, unless this has changed in the last couple of years, doesn't a covops ship decloak if within 5km of ANYTHING?

You are right. There are issues with it. But there also have been with pretty much *every single change that has ever been made to this game* when it was first introduced. If we were going to write off every single idea that "had issues", this game wouldn't even exist in the first place. Which is why, just like everything else, it would need to be tweaked and balanced properly. So maybe instead of taking 4 shots it should take 12. Its speed, its sig radius, its cost, its dps, all of those things can be carefully set and tested so that it doesn't massively upset the balance.

Are you people seriously *this* resistant to change?

We aren't resistant to change, were resistant to pointless change and wasting the devs time on something when we have a better alternative already.

Basically OP its a bad idea that is superfluous anyway as we have bomber which have a similar, but much more effective, role.

Stealth bombers excel at taking out many small targets, not individual large ones.

In that case, why don't we get rid of 90% of the ships in Eve? Pretty much *any* ship's job can be done by some other ship, and every ship has strong similarities with other ships. So let's just get rid of *all* of the superfluous redundancies, that way the devs don't have to continue wasting time balancing these dozens of ship types.

The longer i have followed this thread the more i think OP has somewhat limited knowledge of PVP mechanics. I am no hardcore pvper, but i fleet up enough to be able to see the glaring incompatibilities this concept has. perhaps a better way to explain why this idea won't work and why everyone is telling you the stealth bomber does this job, but better, would be this. you said some of this will need tweaked for balance, but by the time you finish all that tweaking and balancing the only way to make a ship like this work is to turn it into a stealth bomber instead.

the "differences" between your idea and a stealth bomber are basically spliiting hairs when it comes to design and engineering theory. the real and meaningful differences between a PT boat as you have proposed it and a stealth bomber are not enough to make this a good ship to be added to eve. you basically want a less focused less versitile version of a stealth bomber that is cheaper and requires less SP. the addition of this ship will not make anything about this game easier or more fun or more rewarding

that stated i don't think everything you are thinking is bad, just that its all mixed up together in a way that does not work, and your expectations for this kind of ship (low Sp crazy alpha etc) are far to grandiose to fit into the rest of EVE

a ship close enough, and honestly better and more rewarding to fly already exsists, but some of your ideas as far as how you propsed this ship to work arent bad.

a targeted bomb launcher that does more alpha would be great for solo pvpers and actually may be worth investigating

a more realistic version of a torpedo boat in eve would be a simple t1 frig designed to shoot the already exsisting torpedoes. one could be designed in a balanced fashion that doesnt have a special launcher associated with it and would therefore be a low SP and relatively low coast ship to fit and fly. the problem is that there would be little or no incentive to fly it in large numbers much like the current destroyers, which even with the buff will continue to take a back burner to larger or more specialized ships

basically for a ship like this to work you would need to redesign how fleets work in EVE first. the only part of your proposition that will actually fit into EVE without overhauling a huge chunk of the game is the targeted bomb launcer, which i think you should post about in the new modules sticky

The longer i have followed this thread the more i think OP has somewhat limited knowledge of PVP mechanics. I am no hardcore pvper, but i fleet up enough to be able to see the glaring incompatibilities this concept has. perhaps a better way to explain why this idea won't work and why everyone is telling you the stealth bomber does this job, but better, would be this. you said some of this will need tweaked for balance, but by the time you finish all that tweaking and balancing the only way to make a ship like this work is to turn it into a stealth bomber instead.

the "differences" between your idea and a stealth bomber are basically spliiting hairs when it comes to design and engineering theory. the real and meaningful differences between a PT boat as you have proposed it and a stealth bomber are not enough to make this a good ship to be added to eve. you basically want a less focused less versitile version of a stealth bomber that is cheaper and requires less SP. the addition of this ship will not make anything about this game easier or more fun or more rewarding

that stated i don't think everything you are thinking is bad, just that its all mixed up together in a way that does not work, and your expectations for this kind of ship (low Sp crazy alpha etc) are far to grandiose to fit into the rest of EVE

a ship close enough, and honestly better and more rewarding to fly already exsists, but some of your ideas as far as how you propsed this ship to work arent bad.

a targeted bomb launcher that does more alpha would be great for solo pvpers and actually may be worth investigating

a more realistic version of a torpedo boat in eve would be a simple t1 frig designed to shoot the already exsisting torpedoes. one could be designed in a balanced fashion that doesnt have a special launcher associated with it and would therefore be a low SP and relatively low coast ship to fit and fly. the problem is that there would be little or no incentive to fly it in large numbers much like the current destroyers, which even with the buff will continue to take a back burner to larger or more specialized ships

basically for a ship like this to work you would need to redesign how fleets work in EVE first. the only part of your proposition that will actually fit into EVE without overhauling a huge chunk of the game is the targeted bomb launcer, which i think you should post about in the new modules sticky

I happen to agree with this. So how about we split the difference a bit?

Strategic Bomber.

Non-covert capable
Destroyer hull
Twin bomb launchers
4 torp launchers
And not enough room in the cargo hold to reload the bombs.

Something like this would still be a glass cannon, and wouldn't necessarily over balance things by introducing something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the current progression of things. Would this work to keep both sides happy?

No covert cloak means its bombs are useless, only slightly more dps than the current bomber, less than the current destroyers, why would anyone use it?

It's keeping with how the proposed PT boat would work. Wouldn't work without some kind of distraction, or a covert warp in to bomb range. By not allowing a covert cloak, it should help balance out the extra bomb it drops. It's also keeping with the current progression of things in Eve. Stealth Bombers, while heavily armed for a frigate, are lightly armed in comparison to the targets they're designed to go after. A Strategic Bomber, while very heavily armed for a destroyer, would have a reasonable armament in comparison to what it's designed to go after.

If you want RL comparisons, the Stealth Bomber is the B2 bomber in use now. Useful for taking on small groups of targets. (Precision attack craft, new bomb for it?) The Strategic Bomber would be more in line with the B-52 bombers used for carpet bombing a target. Useful for devastating larger groups of targets, not to mention being a bit more of a threat to capital classes. (Paired bombs dropped to wreak untold damage to large groups of battlecruiser and battleship class targets, no bomb changes needed for this.)

'Some distraction' wouldn't be enough, 10 instacanes in the hostile fleet and you're ****** because seeing you land gives them plenty on time to blow you up as you land and align.

As far as real life comparisons are concerned they don't work generally but yours shows you don't do much bombing as our current bombers are used against large groups of targets and are very capable in that role, go find my earlier post about 16 bombers killing 100+ maelstroms in one run. There is no need for the 'strategic bomber' its role is already filled much more capably than it would fill it itself, much the same as the proposed 'PT boat'.

Stealth bombers excel at taking out many small targets, not individual large ones. Torpedo boats are extremely dangerous to battleships, which is why destroyers (original short for torpedo boat destroyer) started being used to protect capital ships from them. They are a completely different ship, serving an entirely different purpose.

Do note that I said some *kind* of distraction would be needed. Never stated what that distraction would need to be. And in a blob level engagement, 10 to 12 new ships arriving won't be noticed necessarily right away. At least until the bombs start flying.

And you're right, I don't bomb regularly as I don't get the chance to on a regular basis but the comparison does still stand. A stealth bomber, while capable of doing a lot of damage to a large group, is better suited towards hitting a smaller group with 3 or 4 bombers rather then trying to take on a massive group of maels like you demonstrated that they are capable of in larger groups. Just because you can throw numbers at something doesn't mean it's the best way of doing it.

Try looking at it from a different point of view. Don't look at it as a harassment tool like the stealth bombers can, and do, get used as. Look at them as a heavy assault cannon. Extremely brittle, but a few can change the tide of a battle within a couple of seconds if they get their first bombs off. These would be more like the old Stealth Bombers then anything, they get on grid visibly and then cloak to get into position. If the targets spread out, or warp off, in response then the bomber has succeeded in doing it's job. And it did it without having to fire on a target. This would also potentially have the effect of bringing back some of the older bomber pilots who don't like how things changed on the Bombers. Anything that adds additional tactics to the game can't really be all that bad a thing.

a ship with multiple bomb launchers sounds cool, why not make it bigger and tankier instead? like a cruiser sized hull with good tank and 2 or 3 bomb launchers and a bpenalty to cycle time? and smart bomb bonuses? a ship specialized in AOE damage would be pretty cool i think and there really isn't anything like that. it could be used for firewalls in current fleet setups far more efficiently and might be a good counter to cloaky ships which currently doesn't have that great of a counter tactic...

The problem is still that it will be nearly impossible to bring bombs to bare with anything non-cloaky bigger than a frigate. No matter how much tank you put on it, you give enough time for a fleet of battleships to lock you before you can align and bomb and you will die in a horrible fire without killing anything. Frig sized bombers are just better.

Also remember you can only launch what 20 bombs absolute max? before they start blowing them selves up. So you have 5-10 of your multi-launcher bombers with 200 angry people in rokhs trying to kill them. You really think you can land align (the whole wing) and bomb before you all die?

Not really bombs then more just the smartbomb bonus. Are you a negative ten alt by any chance ;P

surprisingly no... i miss alpha fleet though... i have wanted a smartbombing ship since i learned what smartbombs do. i take any excuse to suggest one short of starting its own thread since i fear there isn't much need for one, and it could easily become far to good. even something with a role bonus to area and a slight damage boost would have me grinning like an idiot for two expansions or more