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Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
269
   |
Posted - 2012.09.26 12:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
100mn Tengu Fleets become more and more often.
We have in a group been discussing some counter fleet setups, and to be fair it seems hard to come up with something you'll say Yes this will work.
So if your not going to field another 100mn Tengu fleet vs a 100mn Tengu fleet what do you field.
Your thoughts?
Nisroc Angels
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Aducat Ragnarson
Cult of the Black Goat
Dark Taboo
9
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Posted - 2012.09.26 13:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Core:
2 guardians 4/2 fit
2 armor tanked curses with TDs and remote ECCM
Rapier/Huginn/WebLoki
Several DPS BCs
(For every extra guardian I advice one extra curse and for every 2 extra guardians 1 extra webifier ship)
Guardians use their free cap transfer to remote cap the curses, the curses use the remote eccm to make the guardians unjammable.
Tank should be enough to not worry about the tengus DPS. If you have 2 Webs on the tengu and they are capped out, you can easily catch up to them.
You will not be able to die and one small mistake by the tengu pilots and they are gone. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
123
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Posted - 2012.09.26 13:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
The upcomming heavy missile nerf will counter them for you. Just wait and relax until the problem solves by itself.  |
Lord Ryan
True Xero
630
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 17:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Wouldn't worry about it, in a couple months they'll only be used by boosters alts. Untill that get nerfed.
Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me.
Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Nerf it cause I can't fly it.
I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Donnerjack Wolfson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.09.26 18:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Neuts, man.
Neuts. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
355
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 23:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Meditril wrote:The upcomming heavy missile nerf will counter them for you. Just wait and relax until the problem solves by itself.
No it won't
Long range webs out a serious hurt on them. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
520
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 00:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
if a web or two is nice a nuet or two is better.
dual web dual neut auto cane can blast a bad 100gu by himself
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Karah Serrigan
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
70
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Posted - 2012.09.27 00:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Apoc navy issues. Yes they're expensive, so are tengus. |
Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
7
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Posted - 2012.09.27 01:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Void bombs and rail rokh's?
I have always thought using recons would be good for this.. rapier to slow them down, long range neuting curse, have seen fits for 60km heavy neuts, and arazu's. Fit them with light missile launchers and defender's to minimize incoming dps.. never tried this or seen it done, may not even work, but would be real curious to know its outcome if you do try it 
I think too many people are calling the sky is falling with the HML changes, Tengu's will still hit you from 90ish km
EDIT---- You only need to slow down the anchor/fc to slow the whole fleet down |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
269
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 06:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Some good answers, but nothing we havnt already tried or super new.
2x Guadians 2x Curse 1x Huginn / Loki + DPS HACs or BCs i can see work, along with the void bombs actually.
I dont belive the nerf will chance much eighter instead of pound at 90 KM they will be reduced to 60 KM which make it easier to get webs on them. A good tengu pilots wont stop from two webs as the mass ans speed they can normal get out of webrange and recycle the AB.
Apoc Navy.. Interesting worth a try.
Nisroc Angels
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
356
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ynot Eyob wrote:Some good answers, but nothing we havnt already tried or super new.
Well gee, maybe if you were less lazy in your OP and gave more details, people wouldnt waste their time giving ideas that you already tried. |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
271
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
There are new idears here dont take me wrong.
How do you counter fleets like this:
http://kb.obsidianfront.com/index.php/kill_detail/8427/
The Hellcat have been thought off, we also seen get pounded woth a Tengu fleet with less numbers.
Their range and low signatur due AB makes them hard to hit, moving 2000m/s+
Webs on one and your primary with a ton of missiles incomming.
We have taked about the Firewall (Smartbombing battleships) with support from a fleet simular to the Curse, Guadian, Balgorn, Loki setup.
Nisroc Angels
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 13:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
For small gang, a suite of recons makes them very easy to deal with.
Curse + Huginn (T2 Kin Rigged) + Lachesis + 2x Logi (Basis Preffered) + DPS BCs (AC Nados are good, Rails are poor due to native resists)
On a large scale, NAVPOC (Foxcat) fleets with heavy logisics (Read Pantheon/Triage) and T3 tackle (Proteus/Loki).
Tengus are actually not that horrible to deal with, DPS is low and application is poor against smaller boats, they are highly neuting vulnerable and have poor agility, small scale Tengu groups are pretty easily counterable with some Recon support. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 13:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ynot Eyob wrote:There are new idears here dont take me wrong. How do you counter fleets like this: http://kb.obsidianfront.com/index.php/kill_detail/8427/The Hellcat have been thought off, we also seen get pounded woth a Tengu fleet with less numbers. Their range and low signatur due AB makes them hard to hit, moving 2000m/s+ Webs on one and your primary with a ton of missiles incomming. We have taked about the Firewall (Smartbombing battleships) with support from a fleet simular to the Curse, Guadian, Balgorn, Loki setup.
You could start by not badfitting your Triage and work from there really. |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
271
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 13:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
The lose here have nothing to do with topic, its was the first kill i found where i could show what i ment.
The carrier on kill was not baiting, but pilot fell asleep out of shield of a POS after a 48 hour operation. I dont blame him for that lost, just wish he would have moved under shield and logged.
Link was just to illustrate what kind of setup im talking about.
Nisroc Angels
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
522
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 13:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
100mn tengus is like a game of cat and mouse, the way to win? dont be the mouse.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Noisrevbus
244
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Posted - 2012.09.27 22:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Considering you didn't really define the size of the gang until that link, and have yet to define the setup of the ship as you killed none of them, it's hard to give you any detailed comments.
If this is 100mn Tengu in ~25-man gangs we're talking about... the logical counters would assume anything that can match their speed (~2000 m/s) without losing accuracy (turrets, standard drones), that preferrably have a high offensive layering with stacking of many effects (such as webs and neuts) and enough tank to sustain 7500 dps / 30k volley (assuming 15 Tengus). Preferrably you'd want about twice those tanking figures (60k+ tanks).
Notable examples: Other Tech III gangs, Armor HAC rush with Tech III support (DP Deimos, DP Zealot) and faction-shield BS rush (Machs, Fleet Pests) have all been proven to work. There are also current trends involving the new improved AF with DP Logis (DP shield AF with Scimis, or DP armor AF with Oneiros).
All of these setups should be capable of going 3km/s while sporting high-power and/or high-tracking weapons ontop of plenty of utility from drones and secondary tackle like neuts and webs, on defensive layers that HML have trouble with.
The largest issue for them would be to force the Tengus to commit after the layer of throw-away tackle have been blitzed (the Tengus are likely to bail once you snap the frigates and dictors). That's why the lynchpins become so important, it'll be your LR tackle on their back-row lynchpins (grabbing a Recon, Logi or Tengu to force them to commit to keeping it alive; keep in mind, if you are ontop of a lynchpin their Logi are not more than 60km from you, which is drone-range and new LR-tackle targets etc.). In turn, their EW support on your LR tackle and Logi, their frigs to stop your mainline rush and your utility to control or pressure their EW and Logi.
No matter how you turn that sceario, it is commonly a losing battle for them, since most scenarios force them on the defensive where they are more likely to cut and run than to gain enough control to turn offensive. If they start offensive it'll be much easier for you to apply your pressure as they must blitz your logi through EW and apply tackle.
That is, of course, assuming both FC are good.
BC (armored Oracles, armored Canes, nano Drakes etc.) or Shield HAC / faction Cruisers are probably a tad low on tank or mobility in general. The difference, of course, is that the first few gangs i mentioned are both going considerably faster on average and have tank support to be more natural to augment with expensive tackle.
The BC may be able to almost match the Tengus (going similar speeds, tanking just enough etc.), but do not have any exceeding advantages that would let them catch the Tengus (eg., deal with being warped in on or similar: they would crush distance too slow, not reach quite far enough etc.), so they wouldn't be practical even if it's possible on paper or in neutral and advantageous situations (such as Tengus jumping into you).
If it's slightly larger gangs (50+) you can consider more static gangs as well, with sig-projection (LR AHAC) or tank-projection setups (someone mentioned the Navypocs, and that's a typical example of something that become appealing first when you have larger fleets and don't need to nullify transversal to deal with 100mn).
You also have various drop-tactics with high secondary tackle concentration (with Vindis / Lokis etc). You can see that the Loki-Proteus combination is a recurring theme. It forces commitment, which is crucial - they either move to kill your Tech III tacklers or bleed ships, where your tacklers are as sturdy as them while their HML deal poorly with 100mn. The weak side of the Tengu in high-end engagement is the HML, people often forget that. Typical drops are more similar to the larger gangs though, only that you replace more ships with larger ships - and they most likely bring escalation. |
Noisrevbus
244
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 22:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
As a little sidenote: it becomes funny when you realize that this is pretty similar to how "Drake blobs" deal with smaller roaming gangs. The number disparity means they can't operate in your killzone, so they will have to skirt it (kite vs. rush). If you latch onto one of their ships (early on, as they "run your blockade" or w/e) with your Rapier/Lach they may be able to keep it alive at first - but as you move your killzone forward and zero in on your target's position you will push their support off their straggler and increase your pressure on him as they lose pressure (aka. "grid push"). That force them to either commit into your killzone or bleed ships as they are pushed off the grid.
The Drakes of course do it through sheer weight of numbers, and it's rare to see people commit against such overwhelming odds, but the principle is more or less the same as levelled scenarios with gangs more attuned for rush tactics that "rush a grid" (crush distance) and cover alot of ground quickly. |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
271
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 07:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
VERY NICE Reply Noisrevbus, thats deffently had me rethinking some of our fleet doctrines.
Nisroc Angels
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
237
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Honest to god another tengu fleet.
End of the day drake/tengu fleets, regardless of the nerf is going to over shadow most other fleets.
Why? limited skill required, hit f1 and listen to fc. Nothing more.
You can also see just how much isk is actually worth in this game, all 3 ceptors are sporting 150mil points.
Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
Noisrevbus
248
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 23:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:
You can also see just how much isk is actually worth in this game, all 3 ceptors are sporting 150mil points.
Please expand on this, it can be interpreted in several ways:
 People have too much ISK and use it carelessly.
Even the slightest advantage warrant expense of ISK.
Faction points on Interceptors is an example of powerful stacking between specialist bonuses and expensive modules, that warrant exceeding ISK.
I've actually a dabbled a bit into the faction-point Interceptors myself and i must say i quite enjoy the outlook of it in current meta; both using it and facing it. It tie back to this topic a bit with the notion of grid-push.
The profileration of (inexpensive-) snipers have caused some existential issues with Recons (short said, alot of BS snipers that don't bother with tackle or control versus undertanked expensive ships relying on range), which in turn appeal to Frigates (more BS-turrets, less LR secondary tackle) while the expensive mods also function as both cost- and performance relative to budget Recons (ie., the "podla-principle" of implants versus tech II ship bonuses; the frigate cost as much as the budget- fit and boosted Recon while enjoying similar performance without the class-meta drawback).
In less academic terms: enable you to point beyond 60km for 200m while not being as sensitive to mid-long range damage or projection of just a random web or point themselves (single LR effects do not remove all transversal of it's bonused sig-speed relative, while bonused scrams do not match bonused web-range as the bonuses are modelled on the longer point). That enable those Frigate some leeway to still skirt the web-point range as old nano-gangs used to do. At the same time it's not predominantly strong and can net you interesting spoils when you encounter it (it's just points, the ships are explosive [meaningful in both cost and piloting] and dealt with by playing offensively etc.).
Think about the scenario when a point-web (even double-web) @ 60km is applied to an Interceptor, where the Recon still have to MWD on approach to maintain those webs, or the Interceptor will just coast out from the fringe and disengage. It forces the Recon to take risk and play offensively to just maintain effect, and do not automaticly assume grid-push. The same goes for other Frigates on the chase, they have to play offensively and face the utility of the smaller gang.
It's not like 100mn, but it have a few characteristics in common. More layers.
High-end Recon setups obviously function per avoiding the range of other Recons, but they are still very sensitive to the alpha of most LR damage projection even without support effects applied on them (ie., they don't need to be pointed if they are volleyed, and they don't need to be painted or webbed for accuracy if they MWD etc.). They can just be pushed off or killed even if they only initially commit. It's a treacherous environment for a 500m ship (when you pay multiple times for both the Recon and the faction modules), and few people dare to even try risk it despite it's potential appeal.
It has few layers. Which is what make some of the new ships so troublesome for interaction between size-disparity. It's the same when those undertanked BC fight each other, they similarly don't really need to point, paint or web. It's just one layer - damage projection versus damage-projection: everyone can shoot everyone everywhere with just one effect, so more of that effect (or spares) simply become better. How you use it and in combination with what mean less.
That's another take on the "honeymoon argument". |
Uzbeg Khan
Capital Construction Corp.
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:Honest to god another tengu fleet. End of the day drake/tengu fleets, regardless of the nerf is going to over shadow most other fleets. Why? limited skill required, hit f1 and listen to fc. Nothing more. You can also see just how much isk is actually worth in this game, all 3 ceptors are sporting 150mil points.
It's somewhat limited how many of those SP is useful in those ceptors though. |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
238
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 19:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:
You can also see just how much isk is actually worth in this game, all 3 ceptors are sporting 150mil points.
Please expand on this, it can be interpreted in several ways: People have too much ISK and use it carelessly. Even the slightest advantage warrant expense of ISK. Faction points on Interceptors is an example of powerful stacking between specialist bonuses and expensive modules, that warrant exceeding ISK. .
Jesus **** that was a lot of text so I will build on those 3 points ^
I should have been more clear.
I believe that isk is well spent, I would roll with RF points on my stilleto if I flew it half as much as I used to. The isk invested vs the improvoment can NOT be argued. We fly with loki links in gangs ranging from 4-10 and I have ceptors 5, this gang as a place for it. It benefits everyone and since the gang is so small survival vs the blob is important and keeping your ceptors alive even more.
I am merely stating that ISK is becoming worthless in the sense that a recon WITHOUT fed navy webs or a RF/TS point/scram is abnormal and Tengus/Lokis without the same is very abnormal, despite how cheap the hull as become since launch.
I remember 3-4 years ago having x5 webs on your rapier was acceptable due to CPU, now people just suggest "fit faction to free up CPU".
I just feel as if ISK has an over all less value, there is too much of it flowing into the game for high end characters with no new options to help the new guy. Currently a experienced player can farm incursions, run several mining toons, farm FW, farm wh's, farm anoms, farm ded plexes yet what does the new guy get? lvl4 missions with nerfed item drops. It is however totally up the new guy to "find" his way and not get roped into such a dead end part of the game but anyone can admit but doing the previous listed stuff can be very hard and most likely inefficient with such a low amount of SP.
Im not very good with words and getting my point across but I know what I am trying to say and my reason for thinking so, I just suck at taking it and putting it in writing. Hope I clarified it a little.
I will use myself as an example.
I roam around with, always 3% implants sometimes 5%. I am 95% frigate orientated and sometimes I fly deadspace fit AF's...I do this because I have the spare ISK and it is so easy to make. Losing it means nothing to me and it gives me the edge that other players dont have. The problem with this sort of gameplay and frigates however is most frigate fights are 1v1 and if your flying an A type fit Vengeance with fed navy web, ts scram and CN bcu's with t2 rigs.....it gets too easy so you aim for bigger, badder targets and use your invested ISK to give the edge.
This is how I do it ^
However when I see 200 man fleets with fed navy fit huggins and lachesis with RF points, i see no edge or advantage since 90% of the time the primary will be alpha'd and the ISK is wasted. It rather annoys me that ISK is so worthless to them, they do it for the sake of it rather than for an advantage.
Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
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