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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 00:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I disagree with one of the main points in the CSM Statement regarding CCP refocusing and because I'm only welcome in this thread when I scream "YES" I have to open my own thread to say "NO".
I disagree to ask CCP to "strongly favor iteration of existing game content over shiny new content". I disagree if the emphasis is not on "shiny". If the emphasis is on "shiny" I agree but would actually prefer "CCP should strongly favor new content over shiny new content" instead of the current statement.
My personal statements where I disagree with the CSM are:
* CCP should strongly favor new game content over iteration of existing content
* CCP should not waste more resources on the "little things"
Some of the new content delivered in the last expansions was disappointing (Incarna, Noble Exchange, Planetary Interaction, just a personal list). Other new content in the past was great (Wormhole Space, T3 Cruisers and Manufacturing, Jump Clones, another personal list). It doesn't improve the game if delivering new content is stopped or reduced to a minimum just because some of the last features were not successful or not perfect. And this game also can't hold subscribers or attract new subscribers if the major things the next expansions will provide are more sophisticated sorted context menus, optimized mouse clicks and remote repping balancing. I would accept the client to crash once per day and don't care if I have to click a button or not to continue firing after reloading a weapon if something interesting would happen with Jove space.
Every now and then veterans leave with a big funeral march on the forums because they consider the game as broken and being poorly maintained. But I believe that actually many more leave silently because they are bored due to the lack of new non-shiny and exciting content.
As occasional player I don't care much about little bugs - most I even don't notice probably - and content which is not perfect for everyone if there is content and new content at all. Don't lose new ideas and visions in thousands of peanuts.
I am not against iterating and improving existing content and not against fixing bugs, but focussing on that? No!
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Noriko Mai
186
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Posted - 2011.09.30 01:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
-1 |
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
157
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Posted - 2011.09.30 01:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is why we need a "Dislike" button. |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.09.30 01:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
yes but you forget something the disappointments can be improved upon to become worthwhile: PI for one could become a strong minigame in itself and not a half-assed attempt that many people here seem to agree it is. other things ive noticed from reading the forums is the mechanics behind the bounty system and FW can all be improved to make them viable avenues for players as a long term path of development within the game. however as they are its questionable. there's no point in offering options if half of those options take you no where and you end up taking the options you really didn't want simply cause the options you did didn't get the needed development time (or post-release support)...
new content is only really needed when everything else is somewhat polished. they dont have to be perfect but they could feel more like they're 70-80% fully implemented and done (leaving the rest for updates)...im not saying abandon new content...otherwise these expansions become nothing more than endless patches. but at least what is put into those expansions should be 70-80% well designed, well implemented and near completion (or complete itself)...
everyone wants the WiS patch but now imagine all you can do is walk around in a room - people would hate that and think it was the most useless thing to ever grace upon a game update. now put in a bar, seats, a television that randomly shows youtube videos or something that everyone can communally watch, throw in Second Life type interactions and responses for your characters and throw in a little option like assassinations via FPS or TPS mechanic for low sec opening up possibilities of shoot outs with Concord/Station security guards.....and now that will be a patch worth waiting for... |
buee
Valor Inc.
Nulli Secunda
13
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Posted - 2011.09.30 01:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
+0.5
I understand what you mean, but I think your message isn't quite worded correctly.
I am totally in favor of new content, that means adding features on to FiS as well as WiS. What I'm against is more NeX crap.
Other than that, improvements and iterations are pretty much the keystone of a functional online game, I'm not sure why the CSM had to remind CCP of that. |
mkint
84
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Posted - 2011.09.30 01:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Um... what you appear to be missing is that what the CSM wants is to turn all those old disappointments less disappointing, starting with the first of the post-WH expansions... Dominion. Fixing dominion IS adding new content (since it really had no *good* content to begin with.) Fixing Tyrranis would need the webdevs(lol) to retract the spacebook being mandatory bullshit, and it would require PI to have enough depth to be an engaging mechanic that isn't something a 12 year old could do in Flash in half an hour (i.e. new content). Fixing Incursions would need to include adding more site types (again new content) as well as fixing broken progress bars, balancing income, and hopefully do something like making single-player incursion-type missions to replace traditional missions. Incarna's laundry list of needed fixes and new content is probably a decade worth of work, and not vital to the rest of the game.
Even T3 needs some fixes... a glut of garbage subsystems with no economic pressure valves to allow the market to adjust properly, as well as the bottleneck in production that ensures 2 of the T3 mats will have value and the rest inevitably becoming literally worthless. And adding the promised missing subsystem would also be adding new content. There have been old suggestions about adjust parts of w-space to be more suited for long-term habitation and others for a more nomadic lifestyle (destructible stargates being one of the most compelling proposed additions to w-space.) Not to mention the unrevealed story stuff.
The point is that CCP has kept adding new content that has nothing to do with the rest of EVE. It feels like they've been building the framework for a game without actually working on the game itself in a long time with a variety excuses. Well, it's time to fill in the framework and take EVE out of beta, one abandoned feature at a time. But the big reason players have been bleeding away is because the ONLY long term goal still available is to buy a supercarrier, join a blob, then quit EVE... that is what's broken with EVE, and you don't fix that by adding new *framework*. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
89
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Posted - 2011.09.30 03:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kolmogorow wrote:
* CCP should strongly favor new game content over iteration of existing content
* CCP should not waste more resources on the "little things"
I'm sorry folks, but the OP is right. EVE doesn't need another "Quantum Rise" like expansion right now. Although we could get into an augment about the semantics of what exactly "new" is, EVE needs fresh blood.
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado.
Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Spineker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2011.09.30 03:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Epiphaniess wrote:This is why we need a "Dislike" button.
This is why they invented Prozac |
Myxx
Atropos Group
Celestial Imperative
70
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Posted - 2011.09.30 03:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Epiphaniess wrote:This is why we need a "Dislike" button.
^^^^^^ |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2011.09.30 04:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
I agree with mkint's posted reply. CCP needs to fix things before adding more stuff to the game.
Now whenever an expansion with 'shiny' new content is introduced, it not only breaks existing stuff that's already working but it also creates even more bugs. Then there's a 'Fix it' patch every couple of days for the next 2 weeks (usually doesn't do what it's supposed to do) which continues until the problem or bug is 'workable' and not really 'Fixed'..
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SexxxSlave
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 04:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Kolmogorow wrote:
* CCP should strongly favor new game content over iteration of existing content
* CCP should not waste more resources on the "little things"
I'm sorry folks, but the OP is right. EVE doesn't need another "Quantum Rise" like expansion right now. Although we could get into an augment about the semantics of what exactly "new" is, EVE needs fresh blood.
only problem is that the CSM doesnt think that...and im not sure where he got that info from.
He's trolling, Pattern, I cant believe you bit. |
Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
226
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Posted - 2011.09.30 08:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Epiphaniess wrote:This is why we need a "Dislike" button.
This is why you should have to be licensed to post here. Goons can be in charge of licensing because we are posting experts.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Abrazzar
137
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Posted - 2011.09.30 09:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Old content needs to be iterated on until it's finished, bug free and solid by itself. Then new features can be added and iterated on in the same way to create a net of interlinked solid features, creating a solid, diverse game. Old features can get iterated on with new content, adding to the feature in diversity or smoothing out seams between features.
Also, every game feature needs sandboxy content, that allows players to create content within established mechanics and borders. This sandbox part is usually the one requiring more game design work, as it has to be both free form and balanced. The latter being the difficult one as dynamic player activity is more complicated to balance than a web of inter-linked numbers and formulas. PvP and ship balancing is sandboxy content as the fleet and ship compositions are player controlled.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
53
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Posted - 2011.09.30 09:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think the OP doesn't understand that iterating old content might bring new content, specially when the old content is incomplete, like pretty much nearly everything in EVE.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
adopt
The Deathwatch Legion
19
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
People like you should go to WoW
here
I saved you googling, just get off my EVE |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
59
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
the next 2 expansions. maybe 3 or even 4. should be imo mostly made up of mostly old content that has been iterated apon, with maybe 1-2 new totaly finished features per expansion. they ahve to be totaly finished not that half baked garbage like pi and cq. actually finished and tested on sis for 2-3 montsh and changed and made to work on sisi then released on tq. im sick of bug testing this game and would like a finished and polished product for once.
so the expansions shoudl lien up as
dec 2011 eveonline - polished
summer 2012 eveonline fw and 0.0 fixes/changes 1 new shiney
dec 2012 eveonline 2 sexy new shineys, massive buffs(no ******* nerfs) to industry and fis ui's
summer 2013 sexy shiney stuffs now everything has polished finishes
tbh atm ill just be happey if they fix scaps and deliver on there promises
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
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Mors Magne
Astral Adventure
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
I agree with the OP.
I want WiS and DUST ASAP. |
Florestan Bronstein
United Engineering Services
76
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
I want WiS and FiS and DUST and WoD and Atmospheric Flight and Ponies .... all by tomorrow. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
45
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
-1, I Disagree.
Throwing new features at the wall and hoping part of it sticks just leaves you with a heap of half-assed crap.
If the time was put in to make the failing features shine, you wouldn't be constantly craving new stuff - there would be new stuff related to the old stuff, and the game as a whole would shine.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Andrea Griffin
12
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP should fix existing content. Like these forums. I spent the time to make a nice post but then the forums ate it. Seems to happen whenever I take more than 5-10 minutes to write something up. Sigh.
It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
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Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
153
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
you can only build on top of a solid foundation. That applies for every project. If you extend it without solid maintenance plans you basically created a slowly sinking ship.
Improve what we have first, extend later.
(Of course it is possible to balance both sides but since maintenance of features was neglected so much in past it really requires exclusive attention for a while)
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
56
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:you can only build on top of a solid foundation. That applies for every project. If you extend it without solid maintenance plans you basically created a slowly sinking ship.
Improve what we have first, extend later.
(Of course it is possible to balance both sides but since maintenance of features was neglected so much in past it really requires exclusive attention for a while)
somebody made a post sugesting a development cycle on the current expansion release schedule.
something like, winter expansion is for shiny new stuff, summer expansion is to rebalance/iterations and stuff.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kolmogorow wrote:I
As occasional player I don't care much about little bugs - most I even don't notice probably -
And there is your problem. Play more and keep seeing the SAME bugs and things that should be fixed over and over and your opinion would be different. Those of us who actually play the game see a lot of lost potential in the things ccp puts in and then forgets (like Cosmos and Faction Warfare, especially FW, if it were good i'd make an alt just for it, but fw is meh).
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
30
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fixing almost any of the features that seriously need iteration could involve tons of new shiney things.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
In this case, all of the new shiney things would be there to fix and enhance a framework we are all familiar with and understand instead of spending the development resources to create whole new area's of gameplay.
In fact, it is quite probable that iteration would deliver more new toys to your hands as most of the underlying framework would not have to be created from scratch.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
5
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Posted - 2011.09.30 14:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
To be fair to CCP they do appear to have decided to perfectly balance the two approaches by doing neither. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
267
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Posted - 2011.09.30 15:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kolmogorow wrote:
Every now and then veterans leave with a big funeral march on the forums because they consider the game as broken and being poorly maintained. But I believe that actually many more leave silently because they are bored due to the lack of new non-shiny and exciting content.
No - I just feel less and less urge to log in and do something because of the same old stuff being broken for years. Adding unfinished new content over and over and then not iterating leaves us with lots of broken shiny content seriously lacking in depth.
Take Incursions - yeah - tried them, watched idiots getting blown up in their pimpboats, did a few until they became as boring as flying l4 missions. Play value: 2 weeks unless you're desperately in it for the isk.
Fixing Gallente/ any ship rebalances would get me interested in flying around and shoot stuff again - hell - I've been flying around in Minmatar ships for years now - yes - it's boring.
A good reiteration of 0.0 that makes small gangs in 0.0 meaningful would probably make me take part in the 0.0 game again. Play value: months to years...
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Baralosus
Crimson Empire.
22
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Posted - 2011.09.30 15:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kolmogorow wrote:
Herp derp a derp herp herp derp!
I nominate the OP as runner-up of d-bag troll of the year. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
50
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Posted - 2011.09.30 15:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Fixing almost any of the features that seriously need iteration could involve tons of new shiney things.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
In this case, all of the new shiney things would be there to fix and enhance a framework we are all familiar with and understand instead of spending the development resources to create whole new area's of gameplay.
In fact, it is quite probable that iteration would deliver more new toys to your hands as most of the underlying framework would not have to be created from scratch. No way, err... I mean I agree completely! |
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
5
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Posted - 2011.10.02 00:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote:...PI for one could become a strong minigame in itself and not a half-assed attempt that many people here seem to agree it is....
PI isn't a half-assed attempt. It is as it is. There are people who like it. If you don't like it you also won't like it after CCP has wasted a month of development on modifications. Let it as it is and proceed: Next feature please (because that is what you actually want).
Seraph Cruoris wrote:...everyone wants the WiS patch but now imagine all you can do is walk around in a room - people would hate that and think it was the most useless thing to ever grace upon a game update. now put in a bar, seats, a television....
I would not consider WiS as a patch or improvement of CQ. This now would really be a new feature. I hope they don't spend valuable time on "improving" CQ because there is nothing to improve. A room where you can walk from one wall to the other and back will ever stay boring no matter how often you change colors and accessories. Next feature please.
I see that the border between "new content" and "improved existing content" is diffuse and I agree with your points to some extent. But - for example - new site types for Incursions are nice and keep up entertainment a bit longer but it doesn't "fix" Incursions (are they broken?). Replacing L4 missions by Incursion type missions would be actually a loss of a feature. Adding those mission types is fine.
mkint wrote:But the big reason players have been bleeding away is because the ONLY long term goal still available is to buy a supercarrier, join a blob...
The thing with the long term goal is a matter of personal taste. People keep playing for the craziest reasons (become a T2-BPO mogul, become rich by trading, be the most evil pirate ever, become able to fly all T3 ships with perfect skills, make standing of 10 towards 10 corporations, etc., etc.) And finally one can well play without having a long term goal at all.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Now whenever an expansion with 'shiny' new content is introduced, it not only breaks existing stuff that's already working but it also creates even more bugs. Then there's a 'Fix it' patch every couple of days for the next 2 weeks (usually doesn't do what it's supposed to do) which continues until the problem or bug is 'workable' and not really 'Fixed'..
This is a different problem. It's a problem of flaws in software testing resources or procedures before release. If you demand to deliver a bug free expansion you'll never get one and if you demand an "almost" bug free expansion it's too expensive. A total focus on bug fixes is the death of the game because of the 1000 bugs which the game has every player notices 2 which affect his daily game play. Fixing the other 998 bugs feels as if nothing has happened for him.
(quote=adop) People like you should go to WoW... (/quote) <-- This is a quote
I guess you copied and pasted your "go to wow" template accidentally into the wrong thread.
(quote=Jackie Fishe) ]To be fair to CCP they do appear to have decided to perfectly balance the two approaches by doing neither. (/quote) <-- This is another quote
Yes, and CCP confirmed that they did nothing for some time by calling their plan REfocusing.
(...because quotes per post are limited.)
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Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
82
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Posted - 2011.10.02 00:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
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