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ErrorS
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Posted - 2005.03.09 22:21:00 -
[1]
I average around 150dmg a shot with 425s and anti-matter
My shots hit for much less with blasters against cruisers because at optimum my tracking is too low, I assume. Lots of 'barely scratches' at 60dmg a shot. Best wrecking is 380dmg (only wrecking shot I have gotten with one) when my wreckings with 250s were around 250dmg.
are they worth using? I feel like I get better DPS with 250s then I do 425s, or only a minimal increase. I'll admit my skills are low, but I'm not going to bother training if it doesn't get better.
Lv3 medium and lv3 large. Mediums are definitely easier to use as I've had much more experience with them.
I use torps as a primary weapon. Unlike with heavy missles vs. rails, big missles (torps mainly) have a much higher DPS against NPCs. I have 500k in missle launcher operation and around 900k in gunnery (lv3 in all, lv4 in some)
In short, should I bother training for rails? I loved them in cruisers but I'm a bit disapointed with battleship sized weapons. I do know that it took some practice to get good with them in cruisers and I may just need to practice with my tactics for large hybrids, but asking experienced rail users, do they get better with experience?
based on your experience, you know, like checking your log. Whats your damage per second with one gun? the average damage you do devided by the ROF. Mine is 18-22dps with 425s and anti-matter against an Indy NPC at optimum and 25dps to 33dps with Juggernaut Torpedos + ballistic control at any range.
Considering I did roughly 18dps per gun in my Ferox, 20dps with 425s is a bit of a disapointment in a battleship.
I'm no good at making posts without rambling, sorry.
________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
Tisti
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Posted - 2005.03.09 23:18:00 -
[2]
Train for tech2 if your out of skills to train, else go max something else out... Like medium blasters II and gallente cruiser lv5 ;)
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slothe
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Posted - 2005.03.09 23:53:00 -
[3]
stick with them
Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com
or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public"
http://www.khainestar.com/eve |
Super Duder
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Posted - 2005.03.09 23:58:00 -
[4]
I think you just need more skill training time and books. I can almost do what your doing from over 100KM with Irdiuam. Of course, this is a character that has over 4 million in gunnery.
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Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2005.03.10 00:00:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Lucian Alucard on 10/03/2005 00:02:43
Buy better gear,train up your gunnery support skills and research ammo types and train to seek what works and doesn't, 425s on Megs are NASTY,you just have to work hard to make it work! But after you realise your limits you will know where you're needed in a fleet.
/me mutters to self: God I know I am going to kick myself later for helping a PA member!
Please stop being a third rate flamer,I am tired of reactivating my account just to kick your ass. |
jamesw
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Posted - 2005.03.10 00:15:00 -
[6]
Hybrid weapons are very much worth it... As are the Gallente battleships they fit on 
Just have to work out how to fly em nicely...
--
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
 Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
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Xavier Cardde
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Posted - 2005.03.10 04:15:00 -
[7]
they still really need a boost.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.03.10 04:17:00 -
[8]
the only cool thing about hybrids is you can get them cheap because no one uses them!
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Cracken
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Posted - 2005.03.10 05:10:00 -
[9]
Hybrid weapons need 1 of 2 things. Both would be good but i'd be happy with just 1.
A) increase their damage.
WhY?: because rails do too little damage unless you use a sniper setup which stuffs the lows with damage mods. And blasters use too much cap for the amount of damage they do.
B) decrease their cap usage per shot
Why?: They currently use too much cap for the damage they do.
Would be nice changes but not really neccessary yet:
A lowered pg requirement or a specialized skill which lowers hybrid turret powergrid requirements.
A slight bump in mid rail damage aka 125's,200's,350's
give people a reason too want too fit these weapons other than hmm... don't have enough pg for something bigger.
And maybe a very small bump upwards in the range of all rails maybe 5% equating too maybe 1 or 2km for smaller rails and 5-10 for larger rails (aka 350mm, 425mm)
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.03.10 05:15:00 -
[10]
When you look at Hammer's graphs, you will see that rails suck from minimal to maximal range.
Of course they suck at the same level across the board, so you do pathetic damage at minimal range (and none at all below) and the same pathetic damage at long range.
In PvP games, well rounded = death.
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.03.10 13:11:00 -
[11]
Sniperthrons are about as equal to a Sniperpest imho which shouldn't be the case. Sniperscorpions ( 425mm ) are just as good as Sniperphoons imho, which is about right.
Atm Ravens w/ Siege own Blasterthrons unless your a very skilled hybrid user ( neon genesis and a few m0o guys ).
Problem with the hybrids is cap use on blasters and thats it. The rest is either a missile or laser issue which are basically torpedo vs frig and geddon + megapulse problems.
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The Nest
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Jim Steele
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Posted - 2005.03.10 13:19:00 -
[12]
i think hybrids do need a little tweeking, they use too much cap and dont do that much damage, saying that missiles need some loving as you pretty much get maxed out torp and cruise missiles for 2 million skillpoints where as gunnary you need ~4mil to be effective (unless you use megapulses).
I personally would like to specialise in my races ships, but i feel like a noob flying around in a Raven, theres no point using hybrids on one, so im training up to be good with a armageddon and t2 energy turrets.
Death to the Galante |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.03.10 13:21:00 -
[13]
You know what... why doesn't the dev crew just give teh mega 10% tracking bonus per lvl to the mega and leave charges alone. That ought to make ever bit of cap the guns suck count. Kill the RoF bonus on geddon and leave lasers well enuff alone. Give tracking to missiles and leave them alone. Start putting real content in the game.
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The Nest
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Novarei
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Posted - 2005.03.10 13:24:00 -
[14]
I havent used hybrids in a long time, lasers or missiles 4tw.
+--------------------------------------------+
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.03.10 13:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jim Steele
i think hybrids do need a little tweeking, they use too much cap and dont do that much damage, saying that missiles need some loving as you pretty much get maxed out torp and cruise missiles for 2 million skillpoints where as gunnary you need ~4mil to be effective (unless you use megapulses).
I personally would like to specialise in my races ships, but i feel like a noob flying around in a Raven, theres no point using hybrids on one, so im training up to be good with a armageddon and t2 energy turrets.
Jim already has said all there is to say about Caldari ships not doing what the story says they do. Personally I don't see anything wrong with missiles if they would adjust them for torps to not be so violent towards frigs and cruisers. Hybrids do need a lot of cap, but I would hardly call rails out on that one. All Close range guns suck, except the pulses on a geddon ). Blasters eat cap and miss and ACs suck ammo and miss. I am prepared to say ACs should suck more than hybrids. I really don't see anyone complaining about frig and cruiser sized hybrids at all. MOAs love their rails and thorax's love their blasters. If what we are saying then is the mega uses too much cap on its blasters and miss... then give them more tracking to justify the high cap cost. Domi is fine as and has plenty of slots to make up for anything.
Lets not overgeneralize situational imbalancing. Hybrids don't suck that bad... blasters do. Projectiles sucked... they needed a boost and got it. ACs will always suck. If a few people learn how to use them well and effectively then fine... but not enuff do to go screaming wtf ACs are l337 > all other short range.
Situational :
Problem : Raven can > anything smaller than BC under 20km way too easily
Fix : add tracking to missiles
Problem : Armageddon gets an undjustified RoF bonus that makes pulses way too good for 10km - 50km which negates the need for MWD.
Fix : kill RoF bonus
Problem : Megathron and blasters uses an arse load of cap for the damage dealt and needs MWD to get in close.
Fix : change damage bonus for MWD bonus and give it a 10% tracking bonus to make every shot count
Make us fly the ships the guns were used to. That is the whole point to ship bonuses. All guns suck on their own.
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The Nest
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ElectroSister4
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Posted - 2005.03.10 14:09:00 -
[16]
Problem: Hybrids
Fix: Add more tracking
--
"Its better to burn out then to fade away" - Kurgan
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.03.10 15:40:00 -
[17]
it is not just tracking, it is f* up hit formulas. at 10m you have equal chance hitting with blasters as with 1400mm arty, cause both targets must be still. And raven will hit just anything there. And it is hard to maneuvre bs to stay in 1.5-3km range and move with right speed, so that megapulses won't hit too much and you could actually hit something.
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Question2
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Posted - 2005.03.10 16:28:00 -
[18]
Eh why use hybrids?Actually why use projs too?
Just use lasers.
The only way a hybrid or proj user can out damagae you is if their ship has TWO,yes,TWO damage bonuses AND the player has the ship level to FIVE.
Which is a pretty small segment of the population.
Not only that but you can fit amaar ships easier,as they have MUCH larger grid(lasers do take more grid,but you still have tons left over if you factor in the increased grid to compensate).They also tank the best and have the best cap in the game hands down.Their shortr ange weapon class has a very respectable range coupled with better damage than autocanons or blasters.
And if you happen to run missions for amaar faction you have quite literally a field day tanking NPCs doing EM/Thermal damage with best armor tanking in game.To say that you can leave a prophecy with an armor tank going full out in extravangaza forever is not really an exaggeration.
So drop the hybrids and hop onto the amaar bandwagon,as they will always,ALWAYS be superior in nearly every way to other ships.
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Death Merchant
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Posted - 2005.03.10 16:41:00 -
[19]
Hybrids are very hard to use effectively when youre talking about the Large Turret types. Not only do you need lots of gunnery skills, you also need cap skills to go along with them.
Blasters are the most damaging weapon type. No matter what you read on these forums they are. Applying that damage to your target is where the technical difficulties come into play. You will need a MWD and what I like to call it the hopes principle:
#1 Hope your target is under 20km and they dont have 3 WCS on.
#2 Hope that they dont have more cap draining modules than you do.
#3 Hope they dont have a webber with more range than you.
#4 Hope your armor/shields (armor is better) can hold out till you can kill them.
#5 Hope you dont run out of cap because of the insane amount of cap that blasters use.(most setups of large hybrid blasters require cap boosters).
6# Hope they arent tanked for kinetic and thermal specifically.
Rails are really not that bad. They do decent damage especially at longer ranges. However, rails suffer from the dreaded tracking issues. You really have to focus on getting all the related tracking skills as high as possible and also adding tracking computers to your setups. The other drawbacks with rails are the fitting requirements. Unless your in fleet gank setup with 425's, damage mods, tracking mods, and nothing else, I recommend using tech 2 or named 350's. They are basically tech 1 425's without the fitting requirments and better tracking. Ill be buying some tech 2 250's this week to see how well they work on one of my dominix.
In conclusion, (and to answer your orignal question)if you haven't devoted yourself completely to Hybrid then I recommend switching to lasers or Missiles. They simply have alot less drawbacks than rails in the large turret sizes.
DM
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.03.10 17:30:00 -
[20]
small hybrids are definitely worth it, they rock. With small blaster spec 5 I'm pretty sure that I get similar DoT with small neutrons firing AM as a I do with dual 650s firing EMP. Not identical, but close enough.... I have large proj 5 but not large proj spec..
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.03.10 17:52:00 -
[21]
If you specialize, then any guns rocks, but.... in the end some are easier to use than others.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.03.10 18:16:00 -
[22]
Personally I like 150mm Rails, they are pretty decent, I use them on my Harpy and the damage they do seems OK. 125mm aren't horrible but I prefer the 150mm.
250mm Rails are okay too, I've used them on a Moa before and with 2 DMG mods they are acceptable in terms of damage and range. I've never used 200mm Rails because I've never had a problem fitting 250mm on cruisers.
425mm are LOLOMFGWTFBBQ horrible weapons. They miss, miss, miss, barely scratch, miss, and even when they do hit for 'excellent' damage it seems to be for **** amounts of damage, like 120 max. They fire slowly, they simply are not capable of defeating a reasonably tanked target in a fair amount of time IMO.
Now I've never used a Megathron with 425mm, only 2 425mm for 'support' on my Raven or Scorp (which you can't even do any longer due to grid issues) and even back when Caldari had the 10% hybrid range bonus, these guns were trash. From all my friends that use Megathrons, they don't like 425mm rails on their ships either, citing poor damage, tracking, misses, grid usage, cap usage, and overall suckiness.
350mm = JOKE
Dual 250 = BIGGER JOKE
These are horrible weapons.
Of course the biggest problem with rails is that they're supposed to be used on Caldari ships, now on the 'elite' frigates and cruisers of the Caldari that use rails, they are okay, IMO, just not ganktastic ships like zealot or deimos, the harpy is quite powerful in its own right due to its range and acceptable damage dealing.
In terms of missiles and rails, it doesnt work, missiles move too slowly, large rails can't track at the range in which you need to use missiles in PvP, thus they are not a good combination.
As far as blasters go, if you can close in somehow on someone which is a lot harder to do in a bship than it is in a frig/cruiser, then they are okay. Blasters + Battleship doesn't work that well because battleships are slow and it takes massive cap to get close to targets fast in a bship, thus Megathrons are gimpy in a lot of situations.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2005.03.11 00:05:00 -
[23]
I'd keep training, and depending on the ship your using the smaller railguns may be the better option. Nine months ago I used to have 425mm's on a Dominix with similar skills to yourself. They were horrible, even the Guristas Extinguishers (500k bounty) were a real pain to take out.
Unsurprinsgly that ended in a destroyed Dominix. I then spent seven months flying a thorax, and it got to the point where I could kill an Extinguisher far easier in a throax than previously in a Dominix. The moral of the story is, Battleships need a lot of skills to truely shine.
Nine months on I am using a Megathron, vastly improved skills and the damage it can put out is immense.
Analysis of 425mm II railgun performance on a Megathron next to Tachyon II's on an Apocalypse and 1400mm II's on a Tempest can be found here
Energy usage is the Achilles heel, but then you are trading sustainability for sheer damage potential.
Basically 425mm's are made for the Megathron. On a Dominix you can barely manage 4 turrets and the tracking is lousy. For a Scorpian, again, stuck with 4 turrets, same tracking problems as the Dominix and to add insult to injury up to 25% less damage.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
jamesw
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Posted - 2005.03.11 00:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Dual 250 = BIGGER JOKE
These are horrible weapons.
mhhh I disagree there. Great RoF, Good tracking (against bs), and lots of hits to the tune of:
Your Dual 250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes pilot name [hidden], wrecking for 350.8 damage.
Boost rails by all means, but doing so has the potential to make Dual 250's the next "mega pulse", and you will have every man and his dog crying "omg nerf the Dominix".
--
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
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Gierling
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Posted - 2005.03.11 01:07:00 -
[25]
Hopefully we'll get hybrids tuned to use less cap, which should help.
That will mean more cap for travel (Hybrids NEED to control range, period) or defense.
Heck just as long as I don't need 4 cap rechargers to run a large repairer and fire my guns I'm in better shape then right now.
Bastards we are lest Bastards we become. |
Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2005.03.11 01:18:00 -
[26]
I agree and disagree with Jim. If you just put the guns on the ship and try a missile/rail combo favoring missiles then yes the rails are poor. If you use it like a Typhoon, favoring the gun over the missile ( because your missiles get bonuses anyways ) then things aren't so sucky. A Scorpion has enough mid slots to keep cap use down AND add tracking and range. The raven has enuff mids and lows to up tracking, range AND damage. While they might not shine in comparison to a Domi and a Mega... are they supposed to? You can always fit it for a pure missile or vampire boat and Ewar.
Now I wouldn't go putting 425s on an apoc or tempest but talking raven... things get a bit more interesting.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.03.11 01:21:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 11/03/2005 01:21:46
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
I agree and disagree with Jim. If you just put the guns on the ship and try a missile/rail combo favoring missiles then yes the rails are poor. If you use it like a Typhoon, favoring the gun over the missile ( because your missiles get bonuses anyways ) then things aren't so sucky. A Scorpion has enough mid slots to keep cap use down AND add tracking and range. The raven has enuff mids and lows to up tracking, range AND damage. While they might not shine in comparison to a Domi and a Mega... are they supposed to? You can always fit it for a pure missile or vampire boat and Ewar.
Now I wouldn't go putting 425s on an apoc or tempest but talking raven... things get a bit more interesting.
I'd rather put 2 dual heavy pulse or mega pulse on a Raven rather than hybrids of any type.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2005.03.11 01:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 11/03/2005 01:21:46
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
I agree and disagree with Jim. If you just put the guns on the ship and try a missile/rail combo favoring missiles then yes the rails are poor. If you use it like a Typhoon, favoring the gun over the missile ( because your missiles get bonuses anyways ) then things aren't so sucky. A Scorpion has enough mid slots to keep cap use down AND add tracking and range. The raven has enuff mids and lows to up tracking, range AND damage. While they might not shine in comparison to a Domi and a Mega... are they supposed to? You can always fit it for a pure missile or vampire boat and Ewar.
Now I wouldn't go putting 425s on an apoc or tempest but talking raven... things get a bit more interesting.
I'd rather put 2 dual heavy pulse or mega pulse on a Raven rather than hybrids of any type.
I totally understand jim... tbh I would rather use 720mm IIs. I think what we are seeing here is not the viability of the hybrid/caldari performance but the bastardization of the Caldari/Hybrid movement.
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haru'ur
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Posted - 2005.03.11 07:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jim Raynor: 425mm are LOLOMFGWTFBBQ[/quote
rofl im still laughing its late but I got a big kick out of that,
anywho Im flying a mega atm, I tried 425's on it and believe me they are LOLOMFGWTFBBQ, But I disagree about the 350's, Im having pretty good success with them, im using a tracking comp tho I dunno if it makes alot of diff as I just came back from 7 months off. I like the mega but I have trouble with alot of decent size spawns. - Maybe its just me =/
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning |
Seto Mazzarotto
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Posted - 2005.03.11 09:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: jamesw
Boost rails by all means, but doing so has the potential to make Dual 250's the next "mega pulse", and you will have every man and his dog crying "omg nerf the Dominix".
Will the rivers then run red with blood and the sky rain fire? 
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Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll. |
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