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Luthais Dalzeil
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Posted - 2005.03.13 14:38:00 -
[1]
I'm pretty sure that everyone is in agreement that the Ice -> POS -> T2 'food chain' is not as profitable as it should be... For the huge amount of time and isk involved in 'care & feeding' of the POS's. Has CCP given any hints as to when 'adjustments' are coming? I don't necessarily care as much about what CCP has planned, but when? My Corp is getting tired of funding 'The isk Pit'... It'd be nice if I could tell them that relief is on the way.
I think the implementation works, and the bugs have been addressed well... It just needs to be more profitable. I feel they've been cautious enough introducing the POS into the Economy, its time to make it right.
-= Luthais =-
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Neslo
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Posted - 2005.03.13 18:02:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Luthais Dalzeil
I'm pretty sure that everyone is in agreement that the Ice -> POS -> T2 'food chain' is not as profitable as it should be... For the huge amount of time and isk involved in 'care & feeding' of the POS's.
A good fix for this would be to have npcs agents give out isk / trade good rewards instead of tech 2 goods. They would make just as much money because of POSes and give POS owners something to be overjoyed about because tech 2 component prices will come up and they can start making a living. There are only a few corporations I know that are making any profit off moon mining, and they usually need a couple of POSes in different regions just to moon mine and break even. I dunno might be a good plan if they switched to level 3 agents giving out trade and leaving tech 2 building components to POSes.
Quote:
I think the implementation works, and the bugs have been addressed well...
/Me feels Luthais head for a tempature. The bugs aren't fixed, though i would have to say it was introduced rather well... but with some very annoying bugs that are still here. Please fix star base access roles :-) plz plz plz plz plz....
From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
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Luthais Dalzeil
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Posted - 2005.03.15 02:44:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Neslo
There are only a few corporations I know that are making any profit off moon mining, and they usually need a couple of POSes in different regions just to moon mine and break even.
We've got 3... If I place a value (avg Market value) on all of our stock of Raw, Processed and Advanced Materials that we've got on hand... The POS's are just slightly better than break even... Not at all a fair profit for the amount of time, energy And isk we've sunk into them. We haven't sold any stock yet (Haven't tried, doesn't seem to be a point, wouldn't come close to covering the operational costs at current prices). We've just been trading Materials with other POS Operators and building Adv Materials supplies for the T2 Builders in the Corp... If I don't count the capital investment in POS gear, just expenses and operational costs, then yes we're in the green.
Originally by: Neslo
/Me feels Luthais head for a tempature. The bugs aren't fixed, though i would have to say it was introduced rather well... but with some very annoying bugs that are still here. Please fix star base access roles :-) plz plz plz plz plz....
LOL... Well... I said thay had been addressed well, not eliminated... But There are no major bugs that keep the POS's from operating as advertized (That I'm aware of at least)... Unless you count the current very small ROI on the POS's as a bug? ;)
-= Luthais =-
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Luthais Dalzeil
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Posted - 2005.03.15 16:20:00 -
[4]
Well... Looks like the next patch may help some. We don't really need 3 Lrg POS's, we can switch to 1 Lrg, 2 Med and 1 small one to move around a bit. I'll have to check out the CPU & Power capacities on the Test Server and see how that combo of CT's will work for us.
I'm not sure how to read the statement "Tech Level 2 Components will be exchanged with Materials lower in the Component chain" does that mean T2 Components are to be removed from Agent mission rewards altogether and replaced with Materials as rewards?
-= Luthais =-
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Dloan
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Posted - 2005.03.15 16:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Luthais Dalzeil
"Tech Level 2 Components will be exchanged with Materials lower in the Component chain" does that mean T2 Components are to be removed from Agent mission rewards altogether and replaced with Materials as rewards?
That's what it looks like to me.
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Luthais Dalzeil
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Posted - 2005.03.15 19:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dloan
Originally by: Luthais Dalzeil
"Tech Level 2 Components will be exchanged with Materials lower in the Component chain" does that mean T2 Components are to be removed from Agent mission rewards altogether and replaced with Materials as rewards?
That's what it looks like to me.
Me too... So that would leave Agent Runners still supplying a good percentage of materials that the POS Operators should be supplying. Hmmm... Not sure I see the logic in this, shouldn't the POS's supply at least 80% to 90% of the POS Materials Product? I guess we really won't really know how this impacts the economics of POS Operation until it gets loaded on Tranquility... Since The Test Server's Market Economy does not mirror the Live Server's... But it doesn't look to me like this adjustment will solve the POS low ROI problem.
-= Luthais =-
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Gafton
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Posted - 2005.03.15 21:53:00 -
[7]
wait for the small/med towers to come out. Moon mining will be easier and cheaper to do. Production should increase with it.
Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead. |
Wulfnor
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Posted - 2005.03.16 02:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Luthais Dalzeil
Originally by: Dloan
Originally by: Luthais Dalzeil
"Tech Level 2 Components will be exchanged with Materials lower in the Component chain" does that mean T2 Components are to be removed from Agent mission rewards altogether and replaced with Materials as rewards?
That's what it looks like to me.
Me too... So that would leave Agent Runners still supplying a good percentage of materials that the POS Operators should be supplying. Hmmm... Not sure I see the logic in this, shouldn't the POS's supply at least 80% to 90% of the POS Materials Product? I guess we really won't really know how this impacts the economics of POS Operation until it gets loaded on Tranquility... Since The Test Server's Market Economy does not mirror the Live Server's... But it doesn't look to me like this adjustment will solve the POS low ROI problem.
Well if all they do is replace occurances of components with occurances of a material it will in fact help. If only because a given component requires more than one material. So the net amount of components introduced for a given number of missions will be smaller.
I hope they choose this route as it is likely the simplest and it will nudge things rather than shove them. And as you point out it is not possible to test economic changes effectively on the test server.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.03.16 04:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dianabolic on 16/03/2005 04:12:24
Agents should just give out the trade goods required by the POS (enriched uranium etc).
This would do 2 things:
DECREASE the cost of running.
INCREASE their profitability and demand for their goods.
Agent runners still get a bone, POS's get a bone, T2 manufacture gets a bone.
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Exarch
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Posted - 2005.03.16 04:34:00 -
[10]
t2 manufacture doesnt get a bone lol
they need to work it out so pos can make money without increasing the cost of t2 manufacture inputs. i dont like paying 50k for reactors, if manufacturers have to pay 50k for each input the cost of bigger t2 items will skyrocket. even 20k per input would double the production cost, and not everything has as much profit margin as cap charger 2s.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.03.16 06:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dianabolic on 16/03/2005 06:36:19
Exarch - the cost of building an antimatter reactor, for example, if you were to do the WHOLE process yourself (not advisable), making a small profit along the ENTIRE route (getting one metal from one moon, running at 100% POS capacity and fuel consumption) and based on current market prices for HW and LO etc etc would be.....
43k per unit. Now, there are BUY ORDERS in Niyabainen for 50k per unit.
That's making profit the whole way.
Now, you tell me - if POS people can supply for LESS, don't you think that is good for T2 manufacturers AND consumers? If that profit is available for POS owners isn't that benefit for them, too?
And, finally, if POS owners are running round screaming for more fuel because they're ALSO needing more ice AND more trade goods isn't THAT ALSO GOOD FOR MINERS AND AGENT RUNNERS??????
Economics 101, pos are profitable, even now, some people are just too dumb to work it out.
The problem, the absolute choker in the whole process is that agents give out t2 bits as rewards. To agent runners these are >BONUSES< and, as such, they'll jsut undercut everyone. Swap it round, it works for everybody.
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Exarch
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Posted - 2005.03.16 11:42:00 -
[12]
reactors are a small part of t2 production, saving a few k on reactors to pay double the cost on other isnt worth it. i would just pass on the extra cost to t2 consumers witch would make inflation worse and devalue isk more.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.03.16 12:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Exarch
reactors are a small part of t2 production, saving a few k on reactors to pay double the cost on other isnt worth it. i would just pass on the extra cost to t2 consumers witch would make inflation worse and devalue isk more.
Exarch, have a look at t2 component manufacture and moon mining / pos material useage - it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.
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Exarch
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Posted - 2005.03.16 16:05:00 -
[14]
I am not denying pos need a boost to profit, i just don't want it to come out of my pocket.
I make Harpys and Buzzards, i know pretty well the cost and profit of t2 items. Drop those reactors from 50k to 40k, then double or triple other comp prices to 20-30k (witch is what the pos owners want) and watch the production costs double. We t2 producers are a greedy lot and i don't think we are going to sit by and eat those extra costs.
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Luthais Dalzeil
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Posted - 2005.03.16 16:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Economics 101, pos are profitable, even now, some people are just too dumb to work it out.
Hmm... Profitable? Just barely... I've looked at it from 10 different directions. Clearly not enough profit margin for the level of capital investment, the high operating expenses and the huge investment in labor. There are many much more profitable endeavors to pursue in EVE... POS Operation has to be at least as profitable as any other undertaking in EVE or it won't maintain itself.
At this point we are looking at POS Operations as a 'long-term', 'first-on-our-block' investment... But the 'long-term' is nearly up. Hopefully the next patch will improve the situation... I guess our 'long-term' view needs to stretch for a bit more.
-= Luthais =-
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Virram
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Posted - 2005.03.16 16:37:00 -
[16]
Tech 2 producers were always a greedy lot and always passed on higher prices on building materials (morphite, former reactor prices of 200+K) on to customers, so i don t think they ll have a problem this time either. Most of them rather have a problem lowering the prices again once a price hike is a thing of the past 
About inflation, tech 2 production, especially tech 2 ship production will always be a money sink gamewise, as the insurance never covers the prices asked by tech 2 manufacturers, and never should. So overall, tech 2 might be more expensive after the patch, but with the current inflation caused by level 4 missions, a bigger money sink (more isk gone forever when a tech2 ship is destroyed) is a good thing.
POS atm can be profitable, especially when you have access to one of the four most rare moon minerals. The problem at the moment is that you make a very nice profit mining those raws and selling them in Yulai, while the profit of working those minerals up to advanced reactions compared to the additional effort (a lot more Ice product mining, maybe even mining ice in 0.0 to get the lo/hw) is pretty small.
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Bertie
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Posted - 2005.03.16 18:19:00 -
[17]
We have 6 POS now. They are profitable, however as stated above not profitable enough given the huge investment of time and isk to set up , and ongoing time demands (whch just as importantly are not flexible as most occupations in Eve).
The good news for builders is that component prices of today are not too far from where they are going to settle. I have run very detailed cost analyses on all components showing full production costs in the complete workflow, and most components can be made for 15-20k, with reactors in fact slightly lower than todays prices.
I'm not sure the Comps for Materials swap in agent rewards is a great idea. It doesn't really solve anyones problem, just shifts it along a little. Better to slowly reduce the frequency of agent drops over a period of time I reckon so that POS owners can take up the slack.
Bertie
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.03.16 20:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Exarch
I am not denying pos need a boost to profit, i just don't want it to come out of my pocket.
I make Harpys and Buzzards, i know pretty well the cost and profit of t2 items. Drop those reactors from 50k to 40k, then double or triple other comp prices to 20-30k (witch is what the pos owners want) and watch the production costs double. We t2 producers are a greedy lot and i don't think we are going to sit by and eat those extra costs.
Exacrch, are you purposely missing the bit where i say:
IF WE REDUCE THE RUNNING COSTS (by changing the agent rewards from T2 bits to TRADE GOODS) POS WILL BECOME MORE PROFITABLE AND BE PRICE NEUTRAL?????????
If we give out trade goods as agent rewards, GUESS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE COST OF TRADE GOODS???? THEY GO DOWN!!! Because, now, instead of the agent runners competing with POS owners, who have massive costs, they are now SELLING TO THEM!!!
They will be supplying the BOTTOM OF THE CHAIN!
The cost of running a POS will go down, the cost of t2 components WILL GO DOWN.
I really don't see how this would hurt your profit margin, tbh.
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