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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2005.03.16 09:31:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 16/03/2005 09:47:19
If you had an order of magnitude increase in such tests I'm sure we would see a different picture as single measurements would be unable to skew you overall result to widely.
As far as some of the flames regarding the changes, itÆs a shame people continue with the 'Rolling a Dice' comments. Single or even 10 tests are not going to be enough to get the true distribution. Turrets already work using a probability distribution (50% chance of hitting an equal sized target at maximum turret tracking speed) yet we don't see comments about 'Omg! Dice rolling for turrets' do we?
Edit: Kinmaul beat me too it 
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Icarius
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Posted - 2005.03.16 09:31:00 -
[32]
I ll cancel my subscription as soon as propulsion webifying changes will be ingame
I m a taranis pilot, spent a lot of time to train interceptor V and small blaster spe V. I usually fight around 2km
Now, i may be webbeb at 20 km ... blaster will be totally useless like my char
Spring and Summer are comming, girls, beach etc etc ... and with such bad changes ... i don't think Eve will survive or will be worth to be play ... and pay
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.03.16 09:35:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Hakera on 16/03/2005 09:35:47
the chnages especially with 1 jammer having a 30% chance of working is too much, if you have fleet battle, you will just be whacking the ew in autorepeat 1 per target and will acheiev 20-30% decrease in DoT on 5 targets, thats a heluuva difference.
I think the effectivness of a 2-6 point jammer on a 23 points needs changing due to the ease of use of one jammer tbh
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Ohmite
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Posted - 2005.03.16 09:58:00 -
[34]
The old EW system worked well except perhaps the sensor damps and target disruptors. Simple answer is to leave everything as is but just cut the effectiveness of the sensor damps by half.
This would mean tacklers still had a role, scorp would still have a role but bringing a fleet of scorps would not mean total success as present and everyone would be happy.
Add some skills so the scorp or BB pilot can become very good at his role if he trains in that direction just like other pilots become good by training gunnery to a high level.
Is this to simple - seems to fix most problems, more people would be happy and to code it would be easy
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H Zub
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Posted - 2005.03.16 10:03:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: Ohmite
The old EW system worked well except perhaps the sensor damps and target disruptors. Simple answer is to leave everything as is but just cut the effectiveness of the sensor damps by half.
This would mean tacklers still had a role, scorp would still have a role but bringing a fleet of scorps would not mean total success as present and everyone would be happy.
Add some skills so the scorp or BB pilot can become very good at his role if he trains in that direction just like other pilots become good by training gunnery to a high level.
Is this to simple - seems to fix most problems, more people would be happy and to code it would be easy
Please apply for TomB's position and I'll be happy to stay in Eve
Captain Morgan Society
Me parrot
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.03.16 10:23:00 -
[36]
hmm... the porpulsion changes... bad... 'nuff said 
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Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.03.16 10:45:00 -
[37]
lol @ the people saying its no fun to be jammed...
Ewar ships are made of paper, if you can still do **** while jammed there is no point to flying the ships...
Look, dont like being jammed, fit backup arrays...
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Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2005.03.16 10:51:00 -
[38]
OH Dev's, Yes You ........
Leave it alone (except for Dampners) and go and buy WOW.
Thankyou.
Mongo speaks !!
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Endorphimore
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Posted - 2005.03.16 10:58:00 -
[39]
i guess this is the end of ceptor fighting , especialy close ranged.
R.I.P
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Ebedar
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Posted - 2005.03.16 11:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kinmaul IV
I can understand not wanting to sit around and test stuff for hours, but I would say it's difficult to draw hard conclusions from running 10 trials per test. The chance of success for EW could change dramatically if you ran 100 or 200 tests. For exampe, with a hard coded chance of a 50% success rate you could theoretically jam a target 8 out of 10 times and assume a success rate of 80% which in reality is 30% off of the actual chance to jam.
I'm not saying you didn't do a good job or wasted your time because any test is better than no test at all. However from a scientific standpoint more trials would really have to be run before you could make a hypothesis as to the actual chance of success.
I agree, more tests would give a better (more accurate) picture, but I've neither the time nor the inclination to do 100 tests on each thing (especially if it takes an hour to do each test). Hopefully others will follow suit and do similar tests so we can get a better overall picture.
For the most part, the probability of successful jamming seemed to be accurate despite the very limited sample set, so I'm inclined to think that the numbers aren't too far off.
Until more people are willing to test, we won't know how well these figures compare to other trials. Until that happens, these are pretty much the only figures we have to work off...
My life in pictures:
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Dave10
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Posted - 2005.03.16 11:04:00 -
[41]
scrambler changes = no solo killing 
webber changes = no blasters (as if they wernt dangerous enough already)
thx CCP
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F4ze
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Posted - 2005.03.16 11:04:00 -
[42]
They should add a sensor recalibration time after you have been jammed just like cloaking devices have. And after that recalibration you would instantly get your locks back that you had before you were being jammed.
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LuckyStrike
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Posted - 2005.03.16 11:14:00 -
[43]
the new web change also hit crow pilots hard..
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Ebedar
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Posted - 2005.03.16 11:17:00 -
[44]
Also wanted to add the fitted/unfitted stats for the Warp Disruptor I as it stands on Sisi. Fitted to my Taranis it gives the following stats (unfitted stats in brackets):
Activation: 90 energy (same)
Plasma strength: 2 (same)
Fusion strength: 2 (same)
Ion strength: 2 (same)
Magpulse strength: 2 (same)
Optimal: 30km (20km)
Falloff: 15km (10km)
Duration: 37.5 secs (30 secs)
Of course I couldn't actually use it on my Taranis as it would wipe out nearly 1/3 of my cap in one go...
My life in pictures:
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KamikazeHamster
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Posted - 2005.03.16 12:18:00 -
[45]
Falloff for Webbers/Scramblers = Good
Everything else sucks
I say keep EW as it is. The Falloff idea is good, but I think range on everything else just sucks. Please keep it the same CCP. If you don't, I have a feeling that lots of subsriptions will be cancelled, mine included.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2005.03.16 12:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: F4ze
They should add a sensor recalibration time after you have been jammed just like cloaking devices have. And after that recalibration you would instantly get your locks back that you had before you were being jammed.
Personally, I think that being jammed shouldn't make you lose your locks at all, you just shouldn't be able to do anything with them while jammed...
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H Zub
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Posted - 2005.03.16 12:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: KamikazeHamster
Falloff for Webbers/Scramblers = Good
Everything else sucks
I say keep EW as it is. The Falloff idea is good, but I think range on everything else just sucks. Please keep it the same CCP. If you don't, I have a feeling that lots of subsriptions will be cancelled, mine included.
Can you please make me understand the good thing with fall off on web/scrambler?
I also wonder WHY we are about to get ANY changes in EW/propulsion except remote sensor dampeners? Maybe one of the responsible devs wish to explain?
Cause I sure dont understand 
Captain Morgan Society
Me parrot
Movie |
3GG H34D
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Posted - 2005.03.16 12:57:00 -
[48]
You should create a thread called "EW changes, yey or ney". CCP do think up crazy changes put them on the test server, ppl say they're crap and CCP make them live anyway...
I see these changes (with help from your detailed tests) having the following results..
Frigs/cepters join a battle, they mwd over to the target to web and scram it, the first few trys fail leavng the frig with no cap... the target then trys to web and scram the frig, but the frig is without cap anyway and -BOOM-, next please.
OR
Frigs/cepters join a battle, they mwd over to the target to web and scram it, the first few trys succeds, the frig left with no cap... the target then trys to web and scram the frig, but the frig is without cap anyway and -BOOM-, next please.
PvP of all sorts will be Fu84rr3d, except fleet battles which will be lame (ppl warping in and out the whole time).
BS/G4nk1ng 4 t3h w1n
3gg.
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Nihn Lemai
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Posted - 2005.03.16 13:07:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Nihn Lemai on 16/03/2005 13:09:04
Originally by: Gierling
I would think a BETTER Solution would be to keep the system where it automatically successful, but provide marked disadvantages instead of a complete inability to fight back.
I second that!
---
When I first heard that EW was going to be nerfed I liked the idea. The talking was about giving the EW modules fallof ranges and make them chancebased. But now when I read what theyre going to do with them, I almost fell off my chair! 
Ive always wanted to see changes that make people less interested in flying big giant ³ber ships. Little interceptor flies in and web/jam the target before he gets a chance to escape, then the rest of the team strikes. With these changes you can EW a target from such a great distance there is no worry some fast little frig or interceptor with blasters is going to get close.
The only... ONLY... -=ONLY=- ships that is going to be played now in PVP is those great and giant battleships with sniper configurations. With the new webbers blaster users is going to be webbed at such distances that theyll be blown to bits before the even get within thier fallof range.
New poeple are going to be nerfed to oblivion, you need a battleship to fight. Tacklerfrigs are gone.
Say this new guy join this mercenary/pirate corp. He wants to tag along in the PVP raids. Up until now theyve easily been given the role as a tacklerfrig but, please, tell me, what are these kind of people going to now?
ONLY battleships are going to be used for PVP.
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Alasse Cuthalion
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Posted - 2005.03.16 14:13:00 -
[50]
It's ok guys, the propulsion changes are just an early Aprils fools joke... right?
I mean, this change WILL be the death of frigate combat, currently the only truely enjoyable and amusing form of combat left in the game, surely even the CCP nerf bat will be kept away from our beloved little ships? :( |
Razor Jaxx
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Posted - 2005.03.16 14:41:00 -
[51]
Thanks for putting up test results Ebedar.
These are approx. what I noticed myself on SiSi - however one has to remember this is obtained with all EW skills maxed out, which has a BIG impact on the results, where strength (EW, scrambling or webbing), optimal range and falloff range are all affected.
I personally am very supportive of all these changes because they will radically alter the way encounters will happen.
You have to understand that the chance method works both ways, whereas to day its an all or nothing situation. Some people in this thread complain about being rendered totally powerless by ECM. Yet if you get caught by a Scorp on TQ today with, say, 2 scramblers and 5 multis, you're toast if you don't have backup arrays. With the proposed changes, you MIGHT actually be able to fight back or evade. The opposite is true, where a single ECM module might jam your target for a even single cycle, thus giving you a an advantage in the fight. The same goes for warp scrambling, where a single scrambler might catch a 6-wcs fitted ship, just as a 0-wcs fitted ship might get lucky and evade a 4-point scramble.
That little bit of uncertainty will make the game more exciting. It will push people to try new setups, instead of sticking with the same boring old rigs.
Yeah I love these changes, bring them in, please.
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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2005.03.16 14:45:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 16/03/2005 17:06:52
Why do these changes mean the 'death of frigates'?
1/ Have Battleships morphed an extra mid-slot to ensure a webifier is fitted? no
2/ Do Battleship turrets hit frigates more easily? no
3/ Do frigate turrets do less damage against Battleships? no
Warp-scrambling; so you have to use two frigates fitted with one multi-scrambler for a 75% chance of success, 3 for an 88% chance. With regards to frigate squads they usually have loads of scramblers in there already...
I'm sorry but the 'death of frigates' is simply hot air. Squads of frigates will still WTFPWN lone Battleships (a la' Mercenary Coalition vs. numerous foolish FoE Battleships). So one tackler frigate with 1 scrambler isnt guarnteed to stop a battleship.. bring more than one then (As an aside I take it lots of people missed the bit about dedicated long range scrambler and AoE scrambler ships?)
The only imbalance remaining will be Raven's with Cruise missiles vs. frigates, the current changes make absolutely no difference to that, given the ability of a volley of cruise missiles to hit for 100% with no chance of out-running except in a straight-line dash.
Megathron's with Blasters: Again I refer to point number 1, since when are all long range turret ships going to spawn an extra mid slot to fit a webifier?, because unless the Blasterthron does not bring a webifer and a long range ship does... I fail to see the problem here.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
splattercat
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Posted - 2005.03.16 14:57:00 -
[53]
Sorry i tryed to test these changed and TBH was sickened by them...
1V1 CEPTER fights will now be random not due to the skill of the player..
A BS with a web fitted will soon be the norm to stop any close range ships attacking...
A scorp with 6 mulits will probaly jam most ships,as in TQ now,downside was it left the scorp weak V fof/drones.Now just fit 2/3 multis and tank as well...
I dont want to rant on but why these changes are going in i realy have no clue.Unless its just to put more bugs into the game to keep us playing till there fixed soonÖ
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.03.16 15:06:00 -
[54]
I think that the changes to E-War are a very very bad idea. yes, warp core stabs should be nerfed, perhaps making them a chance system to get away, but also make the more you have the less chance they have of working.
as for webifiers and their current stats on sisi, there is no way that i will be flying my claw into battle with its small target range it will simply be food for anything that comes near it with a web. a free killmail.
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.03.16 15:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Selim
I agree with Gierling.
ATM Jamming is ridiculous and with the new system its ridiculous, too. Being jammed means you can't do ANYTHING.
It should provide some disadvantages but not enough to make you entirely useless. EW is really an 'i win' button right now, as well as even with the changes. Why bother with tactics when you can just make your enemy totally useless and peck him to death humorously with a civilian railgun? Thats all you'd need against a ship with his hands tied behind his back.
uhh thats the whole point to EW, make your foe useless. Now they could come up with home on jam modules. Though its a RL comparison thats just how it is.
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Grimster
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Posted - 2005.03.16 16:08:00 -
[56]
TBH it seems the only aim of these changes is to get everyone flying battleships, which is something I really don't want to do full-time. Why the need to change the catching? It works well as it is, everyone knows the rules and there's no "chance" rubbish. Do us all a favour and please leave it alone.
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3GG H34D
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Posted - 2005.03.16 16:45:00 -
[57]
Its not so much the frig combat im worried about, its the new lease of 'phoon cepters, as you'll need a BS to actully web and scram anyone for any decent length of time without being out of Cap (and have someform of tanking if the target has webs also)
Waaaaaaaaaaaa :""(((((((((((((((((
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Think u know 1337?, you dont know nuffink!
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2005.03.16 17:00:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Gierling
As far as propulsion, make it so that Scramplers lenthen your warp alignment time by 30%, and disruptors by 50% (At a much shorter range), with racial jammers being even better, albeit not so much so that you can equip one for each race and still be better off than if you equipped 4 multirace scramblers.
This way, you still interfere with the warp. You don't have to worry about them hopping out no matter how many scramblers you bring to the party. Granted, they still get out eventually.... but eventually can be brought far past the time required for you to kill them.
And if they are in a fleet and allready aligned you have zero chance of scrambling and can just as well just not attack...
And Selim... EW and Iwin button? Do you only fight 1 vs 1 or wtf? Have you any idea how hard it is to compose a fleet with ew ships? Have you even pvp'ed lately? The "IWIN" button is having 10 ships setup with long range guns at a range of 100km and instantly kill anything... Thats something the "ew and missile" specialists can NEVER do. Your biased!
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Ebedar
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Posted - 2005.03.17 13:04:00 -
[59]
Ok some updated stats for the webifiers. The Patterned Stasis Web now has the following fitted stats on Sisi (unfitted stats in brackets):
Velocity modifier: -71.875% (-57.5%)
Optimal range: 12km (8.625km)
Falloff: 4.312km (2.85km)
Duration: 6.25 secs (5 secs)
Activation cost: 9 energy (same)
The previous Sisi stats for this module can be seen in the first post.
I tried a practical test by fitting one to a Mega and getting Endorphimore to tackle me in his Crow. For defence I used drones of various sorts. What we found included the following:
- to tackle, the Crow couldn't use a long range Warp Disruptor due to its excessive cap use (90 energy per cycle) so he was forced to get in close
- keeping me in place using a named warp scrambler (and a named web) was difficult because:
(a) the web didn't work consistently
(b) the disruptor didn't work consistently
(c) he came inside my own webbing range, which meant (even with inconsistent webbing results) my drones became a threat to him
- I could start to web him at around 18-19km
- eight heavy drones were not a great threat to him, unless he was webbed for more than a couple of cycles (his webbed speed was around 1.1-1.2km/sec)
- five medium drones were something of a threat to him, and caused a significant amount of damage when he was webbed for more than one cycle
- ten light drones were a nasty surprise once he was webbed, and caused real problems if he was webbed for more than one cycle
Obviously if he was keeping me there for a BS I would have had more to contend with - but I could have warped out as soon as his warp scrambling failed (which it did several times during testing).
The current tactic of quickly nipping in and out of web range so a Ceptor can get a web on another ship before being webbed back is now irrelevant; I just kept the web cycling on him and waited to get lucky.
On the plus side, he could orbit me at 20km+ without feeling threatened by my drones or web (it consistently failed at that distance). However, he couldn't keep me in place. He would probably have to nip in and out of web/scramble range to do so - and hope to get lucky with his modules, while hoping for mine to fail.
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Deadzone
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Posted - 2005.03.17 18:07:00 -
[60]
I also wonder WHY we are about to get ANY changes in EW/propulsion except remote sensor dampeners? Maybe one of the responsible devs wish to explain?
Cause I sure dont understand
Becasue the WHOLE idea of the change was so that you don't get a 100% web, or 100% warp scram or 100% EW jam ALL the time EVERY single time you turned on the mod. That is just f-ing ridiculous as it stands. There has to be skills involved. There has to be chance to it as well.
But that being said, I have to agree with the greater majority here that most of the changes are not good. Especially web changes. That will indeed cause frigs to not be used and therefore be counter-productive to what the Dev team wanted the intent of frigs to be in the first place.
All the propulsion mods need to be changed...somehow. All the EW mods to be changed, somehow.
The test versions of the EW are going in the right direction, but how in the hell can a race-specific mod, with a point value of 5 jam a BS with a point value of 23, 7/10 times?? That is a bit ridiculous if I may say so. Mathamatically, 5 points would have somewhere around 21% chance to scramble that ship. And for it to do that 7/10 times sounds like something is wrong with the code.
Anyways, all for me---
Vice-Admiral
Executive Commanding Officer
Military Command
Hadead Drive Yards |
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