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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.03.20 22:19:00 -
[1]
Hi everyone, I see you're wondering a bit about this map. Since it caused some problems we're trying to figure out how to avoid having the same situation again. The map will be back in one form or another.
Feel free to post constructive suggestions on this, but make sure it is constructive. Posts like "I wanna have my map back!!!" doesn't help me at all.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.03.20 22:21:00 -
[2]
Do not make it 'official'. That means that you won't receive the endless spam, petitions and godknowswhat from 'certain people' about it, but the mapmaker will.
And the mapmaker can be declared war on, ISD can't.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.03.20 22:27:00 -
[3]
Read the top post before posting, spam is not welcome and other issues regarding moderation can be emailed to [email protected].
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.03.20 22:43:00 -
[4]
Wrangler, with respect, the map didn't cause any problems at all. What caused problems was the attitude of a massive MINORITY.
To be quite honest, those that were flaming the thread should receive a warning and told to stfu and the map should continue as it was and as it has.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.03.20 22:45:00 -
[5]
Imo the map should simply remain an unofficial thing, like it was in the beginning.
That and what diabolic suggested should work on those who will still try and flame it 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Cyran0
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Posted - 2005.03.20 22:46:00 -
[6]
there's nothing to figure out, some friends of ISD can't handle the truth |
Darko1107
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:00:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Darko1107 on 20/03/2005 23:01:59
What is all this about? Just make it official again but keep it locked at all times, have righteous fury contact every major alliance everytime he updates the map (to find out whats going on in eve) then email the new version to CCP so they can update the topic. If theres something a bit wrong with the map, people will just have to learn to live with it. Its only a rough guide as far as im concerned.
Stop all these idiots from posting and could u just delete new idiot topics from now on, im sick of seeing the front page completely locked. People still posting new topics even though the mods have put this topic here to discuss the problem are very childish.
In short: The map HAS to stay, its very helpfull to new people that dont know much about alliances, and it is entertaining to look through. (Ok the second part might be just me cos im weird  ) You just need to moderate it properly.
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Foyle
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:03:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Foyle on 20/03/2005 23:06:51
It is quite disturbing when someone does all this work û out of game; and the trouble to do something nice for everyone, then terminated because not everyone agreed.
Did you mods really think it was going to go any other way? Why did you bother asking the community who we wanted to do the maps and waste our time as well?
It should go up for revote in terms, not when people annoy the mods enough to get their own way.
I think the mods owe Righteous Fury and the rest of EVE an apology. This is an insult to his work and dedication. This will be one more reason why no one will bother to volunteer for such a task.
Mods have a thankless job too, but donÆt add insult to injury.
Eternally yours, MuthaTrucka
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:08:00 -
[9]
The more I think about it, the more I feel that we could implement a simple solution.
If an alliance does not approve of the map, they can have a representative contact the map maker. If that does not solve it, we might have to set up some form of meeting with representatives from the arguing alliances.
In return, the alliances promise to try and make sure their members does not post about it, and we as moderators promise to delete all such posts.
How does that sound? I'd especially like to hear from people high up in the alliances and Righteous Fury.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Fabster
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:09:00 -
[10]
Why did the map had to go? It's a big loss for the eve population. Just keep the map threat stickied and let it be regulary update. Just like it was. Can't see that harm in that.
Only that one Allaince can't control their region for a relative long time. Unlike they claim they do, but they don't show it by force and are hiding.
The only thing RF did was make the space contested and that was just like it is. One big war zone where both parts not really can claim the area.
Now the Alliance can't win it ingame so they attack the map maker.
I find this very weak. That Alliances can pressure map makers in making maps they like to see and those map won't show whats happening ingame. They will only the alliance propaganda.
Map makers must be neutral to both sides true, but can't you blame FA for acting pathetic? It's only a map and if you don't like it then show it by facts you own that region. By presence and by killboard stats. RF did check the regions out for presence and they weren't in Fa favor. Ok, but then didn't he check it mutiple times? For making sure if he was correct.
So bring the map back for the good of eve population. It even don't have to be RF's map.(saw some other good ones as well)
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Foyle
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:09:00 -
[11]
Very good solution!
I will represent Force of Evil
Eternally yours, MuthaTrucka
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Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Righteous Fury on 20/03/2005 23:16:29
 Originally by: Wrangler
The more I think about it, the more I feel that we could implement a simple solution.
If an alliance does not approve of the map, they can have a representative contact the map maker. If that does not solve it, we might have to set up some form of meeting with representatives from the arguing alliances.
In return, the alliances promise to try and make sure their members does not post about it, and we as moderators promise to delete all such posts.
How does that sound? I'd especially like to hear from people high up in the alliances and Righteous Fury.
You want to hear from me? 
I disagree. The way the map was going on for the past 18 months was fine, until everyone (from the FIX leader to FA peons) decided to spam the thread because they thought I was wrong. Then in the mediation thread, they all in a roundabout way agreed that Fountain was infact contested, yet ISD still decided to say 'no map'.
The problem was resolved, plain and simple. ISD messed the thread up. I made it a point to make sure that ALL recommendations to me via conversation or evemail were copied/posted publically for discussion. I intend to keep doing that.
I could agree to a private meeting between 6 people: the map maker, 2 alliance reps from each side, and an ISD mediator to make sure things don't get out of hand.
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Foyle
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:16:00 -
[13]
I would rather see a compromise then to loose the map and respect of your work all together. I do agree it is not fair the way this came down.
Getting this map up and respected again is the main goal right now!
Eternally yours, MuthaTrucka
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Righteous Fury
I could agree to a private meeting between 6 people: the map maker, 2 alliance reps from each side, and an ISD mediator to make sure things don't get out of hand. Frankly I don't think its needed, but whatever.
Well, I can certainly see your side, but try and look at it from our point of view. We simply can't have people rioting here as soon as an alliance disagrees. The details of how to handle that kind of situation can be discussed, but the main thing is that we want to solve it peacefully via email or IRC instead of having everyone and their mother post in rage about it.
The map is a very good resource and I'd prefer if it can be stickied for easy access instead of just floating around, but again, we can't have that kind of reaction.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:18:00 -
[15]
True enough. If I come off as annoyed, its because I'm extremely irriated about how this entire situation was handled, ESPECIALLY between ISD and myself.
My apologies for any harsh words.
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Pheole
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wrangler
The more I think about it, the more I feel that we could implement a simple solution.
If an alliance does not approve of the map, they can have a representative contact the map maker. If that does not solve it, we might have to set up some form of meeting with representatives from the arguing alliances.
In return, the alliances promise to try and make sure their members does not post about it, and we as moderators promise to delete all such posts.
How does that sound? I'd especially like to hear from people high up in the alliances and Righteous Fury.
why do it on the easy way if theres a hardone...
just strange how ppl turn the facts...makes me angry
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Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Wrangler
Originally by: Righteous Fury
I could agree to a private meeting between 6 people: the map maker, 2 alliance reps from each side, and an ISD mediator to make sure things don't get out of hand. Frankly I don't think its needed, but whatever.
Well, I can certainly see your side, but try and look at it from our point of view. We simply can't have people rioting here as soon as an alliance disagrees. The details of how to handle that kind of situation can be discussed, but the main thing is that we want to solve it peacefully via email or IRC instead of having everyone and their mother post in rage about it.
The map is a very good resource and I'd prefer if it can be stickied for easy access instead of just floating around, but again, we can't have that kind of reaction.
Keep the thread more moderated? To be honest I was suprised the mediation thread got as out of hand as it did. When the map thread was initally locked, I was thankful because that alone would have resolved it, but then when the mediation thread replaced it that was just asking for trouble.
The only problem I have with resolving things over IRC/ingame is that timezones are a problem for people occasionally. Other than that it doesn't really matter to me.
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Vince Draken
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:21:00 -
[18]
What's done is done guys. Lets just rollback the forums.
Seriously though, if there are two groups fighting large scale battles the area has to be considered contested.
However, gurrila raiding parties shouldnt be awarded contesting regions, rather a red blob indicating war zone.
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Tholarim
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:23:00 -
[19]
Guys we can all discuss this untill full detail but if you look at it comletely objective this is what it boils down to:
No map is gonna suffice, there's always people that are gonna whine, and if that group of people is big enough (even if what they are saying is " propaganda" to say the least) CCP is always gonna accomodate em. Cus ccp lives of of their monthly payment. So please no map anymore, FA & FIX did their job well. Let's just keep on going without the map please. Cus atm it only makes the mods look like they're following certain alliances around just to make sure that they don't go mass petition all over the place.
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Zhuge Liang
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:24:00 -
[20]
This is what I propose;
From now on anyone wanting to make a map can do so. The maps will not be stickied on the main forum and will not in any way be moderated or seem 'official'.
Players can then simply click on the link of the map maker they wish to follow and go to his/her site to view their map and submit update information directly to them via email or their own forum. I'm happy to host the links to the mapmakers websites here.
Any accusations of bias, or unfairness will then no longer be a problem as you can simply select a different map maker.
I didn't want it to come to this but I can see the same thing happening again some time in the future and it could be from any faction/alliance that is unhappy with a change.
The map maker has taken a lot of abuse and accusations and I would prefer such incidents to not repeat themselves.
ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming) |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:25:00 -
[21]
Well, another solution is that we use the EVE Corporations, Alliances and Organisations - Website Links thread and put links to everyones maps in there. People can then simply choose which map to use, and of course you can have your preferd map linked in your signature.
EDIT: Which is pretty much what Zhuge suggests in the last post on the first page.. /EDIT
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Foyle
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:28:00 -
[22]
That's crap!
You caved in.
You just showed everyone how to get around the mods.
Eternally yours, MuthaTrucka
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Tholarim
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:32:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tholarim on 20/03/2005 23:47:00
multiple maps won't work.
why? all the maps will be " sponsored" by certain alliances and thus will show completely subjective pictures of the eve galaxy.
Then you have 15 different subjective views on the eve map, and no1 will know what's going on.
Thing is, every1 had a chance to vote on the mapmaker. People from there on should have respected his opinion and provide facts/evidence to change it. Not mass petitioning to close it down. It's the saddest move i've seen by ccp so far.
Every1 making their own map is useless as a community recource zhuge.
No more maps is my vote
Also, if the people that started all this cared so much about the map, the maybe all of fa or fix should have voted to make sure a mapmaker they would approve with would be selected. I think it's very very unfair to start accusing some1 of being biased after they all put their votes in and made him the mapmaker.
It just looks like kindegarten again to me.....
my 2 cents.
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:34:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Trooper B99 on 20/03/2005 23:35:23
Well, a bunch of different maps would allow people their own choices, and cut out alot of crap, but tbh, as we voted and chose RF. Everyone had their chance and RF was chosen by the majority of the people. As Thol says though the addition maps will probably be alot more subjective and prone to real bias as there are no controls on how they are presented as the map we had WAS.
Personally I'd prefer it the same as it was before*sighs* But that seems not to be an option atm.
Probably a redundant idea, but how about the same as the old way was except having only one person nominated from each group from the diplomacy table.
After all of the random comments as before, the mods delete the posts and RF pts forward the PROPOSED changes. The named alliance/group people have say 2 days to make comments/back up any points (only those named people - no proxies unless confirmed with RF - supurflous posts to be deleted). Disagreements with proposed solutions have to be backed up with reasons and fact. After the 2 days RF should have a clear idea of what the case is (in addition to his own observations of the situation). Then the map is made.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:34:00 -
[25]
Well, one sticky for one map will pretty much make it look very official, even if it really isn't. And there will always be some people who claim that it is biased and so on. Allowing everyone with a map to have it linked from a sticky on the other hand eliminates the bias thing, since you can either choose a map you think is most accurate, or you can make your own if none of the existing maps is to your liking, or you can be quiet.
At the moment all we're posting is ideas, hopefully we can come to a suitable solution soon, even if not everyone will like it. We won't make any decisions today, but I'll try and make sure we decide on some way tomorrow.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Akaviri
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:35:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Akaviri on 20/03/2005 23:37:28
I have a simple solution. There shouldn't be one mapmaker. Have a stickied thread with links to maps made by two or three people. That way no single mapmaker can be accused of unfair bias, especially if the mapmakers come from different alliances/corps. When we had the competition we saw a lot of people making an effort to create a map. I'm sure we could easily get three mapmakers.
Also, any people trolling the map thread should have their posts edited/deleted and given a warning to keep this resource available to the community, instead of letting the smack get out of control and causing the thread to be locked. I know that's more work for the moderators, but the map thread should be given more care since it is more important than the endless so-and-so attacked some big corp/alliance and totally pwned them threads.
Edit: Hmm, seems like a few people already posted about the multiple map idea.
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((____| `` )_--\ \_-`(x.x)
`------'`------` `--` (> <) Kitty pwns Bunny! |
SLIM
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Trooper B99
Probably a redundant idea, but how about the same as the old way was except having only one person nominated from each group from the diplomacy table.
After all of the random comments as before, the mods delete the posts and RF pts forward the PROPOSED changes. The named alliance/group people have say 2 days to make comments/back up any points (only those named people - no proxies unless confirmed with RF - supurflous posts to be deleted). Disagreements with proposed solutions have to be backed up with reasons and fact. After the 2 days RF should have a clear idea of what the case is (in addition to his own observations of the situation). Then the map is made.
I like this idea. Every alliance shown on the map gets a voice, puts personal responsibility on that person. Also lets the mods easily delete spam. Got my vote.
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Foyle
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:38:00 -
[28]
I think you should stick with the orginal vote and let it ride for 1 month. See if it sorts itself out before making such quick decisions on folding it down. Use that month to see if you can come up with a better idea.
Righteous Fury is owed that much respect at least!
Eternally yours, MuthaTrucka
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Tipsy
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tipsy on 20/03/2005 23:42:31
Originally by: Wrangler
We simply can't have people rioting here as soon as an alliance disagrees.
I entirely agree - but if people can't discuss calmly and politely then stop them discussing until they learn to.
If posting inappropriately means you don't get to communicate your view, wouldn't that be an incentive to post in a polite, non-riotous way?
It's certainly a shame to deprive hundreds of the map because of the actions of a few.
--
Tipsy
XFI Chief of Staff |
Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.03.20 23:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Foyle
I think you should stick with the orginal vote and let it ride for 1 month. See if it sorts itself out before making such quick decisions on folding it down.
I agree with this idea as well. Tbh, we didn't have problems until the fight came to . . . certain alliances and they, or their spokespersons/loud objectors took umbrage at what was being said.
As the month goes on, it'll be easy to see if RF was right and if those people were just using the map as another part of their defence of their regions.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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