Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 01:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Problem: Skiff has great tank, and trades mining yield and ore bay size to get it - however, when in lowsec, yield is nerfed several more times and mandatory use of warp stab has the secondary effect of sensor dampening the skiffs primary defense (drones). My drones couldn't even target npc pirate frigates keeping 20KM distance. With the warp stabs in the low slots, the skiff target range gets reduced all the way down to 8-9km.
Furthermore, the skiff suffers other disadvantages in lowsec -- single high slot means no salvager fitted to grab wrecks while mining. The lack of mobile labs and need for self sufficiency in low sec essentially means that the supply of t2 crystals also becomes low (another big nerf to yield).
The skiff should be the low-sec exhumer...the peak mining ship for low sec. The Skiff is not really needed in high sec and isn't appropriate for null sec (null sec is about corp/group activities which would mean hulks). So the exhumer break down should be - High Sec -> Mac, Low Sec -> Skiff, Null Sec -> Hulks.
Proposed Solution:
There are two ways to fix things:
Option 1: Give the skiff +3 built in warp stab and remove the two low slots (resulting in zero low slots). Replace them with two high slots (which can not fit a strip miner, but can fit a cloak/salvager).
Option 2: At a minimum, give the skiff a significant built in sensor boost to cancel out the sensor dampening effects when using warp stabs and which play havoc with drone based defence while in belts.
Thanks for considering the above. The ideas came from my comment in the ships forum: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2060761#post2060761
|

LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 01:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Anticipating a counter argument that one doesn't need to fit stabs in lowsec because the pilot should be watching local -- this argument just doesn't carry water, primarily because the rats in belts will try to warp scrabble and one can't flee sightings of new ships in local if ones craft is already scrammed. The rats are regenerated every 15-25 minutes or so, and with the low mining yield of the skiff....one simply can't flee away everytime a new rat is sighted. Killing rats is supposed to be part of the fun of low sec mining.
So, unless CCP is offering to remove the scram capability of npc rats in lowsec belts, than the skiff will need one of the fixes mentioned above to make it anyway comparable to its sibling exhumer models. |

LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 02:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
At the moment, the only reasonable fit I can see for a skiff in lowsec is:
High - t2 strip miner w/ t1 crystal (self sufficient w/o mobile lab for invention) Rigs -Two Shield Field Extender 2's, needed to survive multiple NPC BS's going after you in belts Mids - 3 x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II to max out already high shield resistance Mids - 2 x Drone Nav Computer to speed up drones and avoiding being scrammed and w/o any defense whatsoever or having to constantly recall drones when fighting NPC frigs and BS's Lows - 2 x Drone Damage Augmentor, Warp Stab Sensor Dampening is Not acceptable so only solution until CCP fixes things is to kill off NPC's that warp scramble faster
One will still need to be a hawk watching local with the above. Mining yield will fall significantly without t2 crystal or MLU2's, and tank won't be awesome but should still be sufficient to get through any belt rats in 0.2 or higher |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
995
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
1. Warp stabs are lol 2. Keep your attack drones deployed and set for aggressive. Anything that attacks them or you and is within your drone control range will be attacked by them. 3. In two years of living in low-sec I have never encountered a warp disrupting rat in a belt. Those I have encountered in null-sec though are pathetically easy to kill with drones alone (they orbit at 5km so you have no excuse to not target them either). 4. Get a logi ship or two to make the most of the Procuror's tank. 5. A Skiff is a mining ship... not a general purpose industrial PvE ship. Why should it have salvagers? Even Hulks and Mackinaws can't fit them. 6. Why do you need mobile labs in low-sec? Just use the stations. They are just as good as high-sec (even better because there are fewer people fighting for them).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: 2. Keep your attack drones deployed and set for aggressive. Anything that attacks them or you and is within your drone control range will be attacked by them.
This seems to be the case in high sec PVE....but drones twice failed to aggro NPC's that were targeting me earlier this evening...even after several minutes and bringing them back into the bay and putting them out again. I'm guessing they couldn't aggro due to the dampening somehow.
ShahFluffers wrote: 3. In two years of living in low-sec I have never encountered a warp disrupting rat in a belt. Those I have encountered in null-sec though are pathetically easy to kill with drones alone (they orbit at 5km so you have no excuse to not target them either).
Well -- unfortunately, that isn't the case. I wish I would have recorded this evening. We had one rat that was warp scramming at around 18km range or at least tryign to. I think the drones couldn't target him.
ShahFluffers wrote: 4. Get a logi ship or two to make the most of the Procuror's tank.
I try to minimize use of alts....doesn't seem to be a fair way to play.
ShahFluffers wrote: 5. A Skiff is a mining ship... not a general purpose industrial PvE ship. Why should it have salvagers? Even Hulks and Mackinaws can't fit them.
Fair enough - but low sec belts are much larger than highsec ones and needs a heavily tanked/defended/fast ship to go through them to get all the loot and salvage. In high sec, the orca serves this purpose with its long tractor range...not sure what to use in low sec.
ShahFluffers wrote: 6. Why do you need mobile labs in low-sec? Just use the stations. They are just as good as high-sec (even better because there are fewer people fighting for them).
Well, in my case....there isn't a lab in low sec anywhere nearby in my region..the nearest is 8 jumps in highsec. Of course, there are routes to other regions and there may be some stations that are closer that way...but those are more shady areas that I don't want to risk moving my bpo's in and out of. There is also just the silly point that some of us want to build our own bases and be self sufficient..I only leave my pos system to haul back/forth to highsec and even then I limit to the lowest traffic periods of the day. So, with a pos in lowsec, I might end up having to do any research in high sec....fine, not happy with it, but a small high sec research pos shouldn't be that expensive.
I'll also make the quick point that mining is mind numbingly boring.....in high sec, one copes with this by doing other work in different screens and checking status every minute -- with a warp stab in low sec and without a cloak, one now has to do nothing but watch the local channel for an hour or two straight and little else with the mouse finger ready at any point to quickly click warp back to pos in under 2-3 seconds. How droll when some bonus warp stability would make it easier to take the eyes off the screen for 30 seconds at a time....oh well. |

King Rothgar
CONTRATTO Equinox Rising
320
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 11:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Some low sec rats do scramble, though it's rare. In any case I'd support +2 warp core strength. That's actually its old bonus before they changed the things. I see no reason not to add it back in. I would keep the low slots however, if +2 warp core strength doesn't save you, +4 won't either and you sacrifice an awful lot of yield to get that useless +2 extra.
Edit: Almost forgot, the rest of your idea on it is inappropriate. It is a mining barge and nothing else. It isn't supposed to be cloaking or salvaging. Honestly there isn't a reason to do either one anyways. You must have a POS or a place to dock, if you really want to salvage those crappy belt rat wrecks then bring a salvaging frigate with you. No need to dual client for that either. The Troll is trolling. |

Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
220
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 13:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mining barges are designed to have an escort. Not protect themselves. Recruit some peeps to live in your lowsec system with you to rat and run anoms. They can then protect you whilst your mining by warping in and killing the rats or the people who come to kill you.
The ship you're looking to fly will be released with Retribution this winter. The Ore Mining Frigate is designed to do exactly what you're doing. |

LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 16:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Mining barges are designed to have an escort. Not protect themselves. Recruit some peeps to live in your lowsec system with you to rat and run anoms. They can then protect you whilst your mining by warping in and killing the rats or the people who come to kill you.
Whoever said that mining was not meant to be a solo activity? Most miners idea of group mining is bringing their alts along with them.... There is a lot of talk about mining corps and group ops, but I've found this to be horribly rare. Maybe it happens in null sec, maybe some companies do it in highsec....but I think lowsec is primarily individuals who want to take on more risk than highsec but not give up their freedom to other orgs (nullsec).
Yes, having friends along is more fun... excusing defects in the usability of a ship is not good.
Spugg Galdon wrote: The ship you're looking to fly will be released with Retribution this winter. The Ore Mining Frigate is designed to do exactly what you're doing.
I doubt it. Frig might be good enough to make the mining more fun, but I doubt it will be strong enough to solo groups of BS NPC's in belts which the skiff currently does.
If we're going to keep the skiff as is, then reduce its ore bay down to half size (hulk size) and reduce the mack's mining rate and increase the skiff's.
Then you'll have a better match up: Hulk -- group miner, best mining rate and most turrets so minimal interruptions Skiff - Solo Active miner willing to go into risky areas, avg mining rate, best tank Mack - Solo AFK miner that takes no risk, poor mining rate and tank, best ore bay size
As it is - it seems the low sec miner isn't having representation with whoever is designing these ships. |

LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 16:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Part of the reason for the last comment -- solo lowsec miners are constrained by the amount of time they can spend out actively mining. They either need a warp stab bonus or sensor boost to be able to mine long enough to get any decent return on the risks they are taking....or the per cycle mining yield needs to increase so that is above what can be earned in high sec. After all, the roids he is mining are not any more valuable really per cycle than what is in high sec right now with scordite/etc. The Low sec miner is lucky to be able to mine 1/4 the time a high sec one does and without warp stabs he must be constantly on the look out. With warp stabs, his drones don't work properly for defence against npcs due to the sensor damp side effect.
Return the warp stability +2 bonus the skiff originally had, boost its sensor strength, or increase mining yield...that is what is needed to make this ship usable.
I'm now seeing coveters and retrievers being used in lowsec instead and that's just sad. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
675
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 18:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
To be honest, while a slight boost to the skiff is reasonable, I'm not sure I agree with either of your suggestions.
While I might support a +1 or +2 to WCStrength, +3 is too much! And really, an agility bonus will go a lot farther in increasing it's survive-ability than a WCStr bonus.
On another note, increasing it's targeting range is very reasonable... If this is to be used in nullsec, where BS's like to orbit you at 50 km's... a 28 km's lock range is a tad bit underwhelming. Doubling or trippling that would be fine, although leave it's Sensor Strength alone... Dear God... a base 800 SS with 5x mids... I found my new favorite insta-locking ship... no-one will fear it, but it can lock a pod in a single tic!!!!
In reality though, I think the new mining frigate will cover the whole ninja-mining thing... It doesn't have the same yield, but it provides plenty of ore bay, and is definitely agile enough to get around! |
|

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.20 04:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'd much rather just see warp stabs 'fixed' to the point where they can actually be used in a ship built for anything other than avoiding being tackled. The targetting range penalty is currently crazy. Since you already are giving up tank/dps/yield/cargo when you fit it onto a ship. So they already have a downside.
Removing that penalty, or making it considerably smaller would go a much longer way towards making viable low sec builds, and see a lot more people in low sec running Warp stabs instead of DPS slots on their ships probably. Which would make the low sec pirates happier since they have more targets now that their targets feel like they have a chance. (Real or not, that is the perception of low sec that you go into it you die).
Maybe a velocity penalty the same as cargo rigs could replace it, maybe an armour penalty, maybe it doesn't even need a penalty as the use of the slot for a one off event is enough of a penalty. (Given ECCM as the equivilent 'if you don't fight ECM its a wasted slot') |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1007
|
Posted - 2012.10.20 06:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
LuckyQuarter wrote:This seems to be the case in high sec PVE (drones auto aggroing NPCs)....but [my] drones twice failed to aggro NPC's that were targeting me earlier this evening...even after several minutes and bringing them back into the bay and putting them out again. I'm guessing they couldn't aggro due to the dampening somehow.
...
I wish I would have recorded this evening. We had one rat that was warp scramming at around 18km range or at least tryign to. I think the drones couldn't target him.
Simply being targeted by NPCs doesn't cause the drones to aggro. The NPCs have to "red-box." And deploying the drones after the NCP has engaged with result in nothing.
And 18km is well within the Skiff's targeting range. You should have been able to wipe it out.
Quote:I try to minimize use of alts....doesn't seem to be a fair way to play. Who said anything about alts? Get friends.
LuckyQuarter wrote:... in my case....there isn't a lab in low sec anywhere nearby in my region..the nearest is 8 jumps in highsec. Of course, there are routes to other regions and there may be some stations that are closer that way...but those are more shady areas that I don't want to risk moving my bpo's in and out of. There is also just the silly point that some of us want to build our own bases and be self sufficient..I only leave my pos system to haul back/forth to highsec and even then I limit to the lowest traffic periods of the day. So, with a pos in lowsec, I might end up having to do any research in high sec....fine, not happy with it, but a small high sec research pos shouldn't be that expensive. I have POSs in low-sec too (or at least my corp does). They're definitely a hassle to manage and protect... and they are expensive... but we do it because it gives us an edge over other players.
Why should this sort of thing be cheap enough so everyone and their mother can do it? What makes you entitled to being "self sufficient"... a state that very few of the most organized alliances in the game have ever achieved... without putting in a little effort and exposing yourself to a little risk?
LuckyQuarter wrote:I'll also make the quick point that mining is mind numbingly boring.....in high sec, one copes with this by doing other work in different screens and checking status every minute -- with a warp stab in low sec and without a cloak, one now has to do nothing but watch the local channel for an hour or two straight and little else with the mouse finger ready at any point to quickly click warp back to pos in under 2-3 seconds. How droll when some bonus warp stability would make it easier to take the eyes off the screen for 30 seconds at a time....oh well. Or how about you not mine in belts and find a nice gravametric anomaly that requires an attacker to either probe you (requires a minute or two to set up... you can even see the probes on D-Scan) or move on?
Nevyn Auscent wrote:I'd much rather just see warp stabs 'fixed' to the point where they can actually be used in a ship built for anything other than avoiding being tackled. The targetting range penalty is currently crazy. Since you already are giving up tank/dps/yield/cargo when you fit it onto a ship. So they already have a downside.
Removing that penalty, or making it considerably smaller would go a much longer way towards making viable low sec builds, and see a lot more people in low sec running Warp stabs instead of DPS slots on their ships probably. Which would make the low sec pirates happier since they have more targets now that their targets feel like they have a chance. (Real or not, that is the perception of low sec that you go into it you die).
Maybe a velocity penalty the same as cargo rigs could replace it, maybe an armour penalty, maybe it doesn't even need a penalty as the use of the slot for a one off event is enough of a penalty. (Given ECCM as the equivalent 'if you don't fight ECM its a wasted slot') Three things...
1. Isn't the point of a Warp Core Stabilizer to avoid getting tackled? 2. It won't prevent pirates from killing people. It will just necessitate the use of Heavy Interdictors with their "Infinite points" at gates (already the case so no change there) and/or alpha/gank ships (which are already too popular). 3. Way back in the day, Warp Core Stabilizers didn't have any penalties (except that it required CPU to fit). What people did was fit two or three to sniper battleships... warp in at 100 or so... take a few shots... and when a frigate/interceptor managed to get point on the sniper, the ship would warp away laughing. It was used so often and abused so much that CCP nerfed it to the ground. And rightfully so. WCS do no encourage fights... they encourage people to be more skiddish than they already are. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |