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Qayos
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Posted - 2005.03.24 12:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Qayos on 25/03/2005 04:01:28
Edited by: Qayos on 25/03/2005 00:24:36
From... http://www.eve-online.com/features/exodus/aggression/contraband.asp
 Quote:
Stealing
When a player takes items from a container that is owned by a another player, it is regarded as stealing. Exceptions to this are:
* Secure containers, as they are presumably already protected by password.
* Members of same non-NPC corporation. (NPC corporations typically have a large member count with people not knowing each other)
* Members of same Alliance.
* Members of same gang.
Stealing from a container gets you criminal flagged, triggering the appropriate response from the authorities.
While this doenst resolve the issue of jetcans, if you mine into a NON-secure can, according to EVE-Online you WILL get criminally flagged. (Although I think this doesnt happen, they say it does. Perhaps someone should file a bug report...)
I guess CCP is ahead of us and already implemented my suggestion of crim flagging theives... its just that it doesnt actually work right now... bugged or forgot to implement it, but it is officially SUPPOSED to crim flag you.
EDIT: ADD: Other Official stance.... from http://support.eve-online.com/cgi-bin/eve_online.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=520
Quote:
The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
Thanks Avon.
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Ryctor
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Posted - 2005.03.24 12:24:00 -
[2]
You dont even warrent a responce....
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Dakath
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Posted - 2005.03.24 13:12:00 -
[3]
The horse you are flogging is DEAD! 
I chopped Bunny into little pieces.
\ ( )( X > ) ( .x ) / < _
Muahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Sic Transit Gloria Bunny! |
Galeo
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Posted - 2005.03.24 14:46:00 -
[4]
Haven't you heard, CCP encourages griefing, so if it sux, and you got screwed, it's just part of the game.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.03.24 14:51:00 -
[5]
That was a proposed part of Exodus which, like so many others, was not implemented.
As such it does not represent CCP's official stance which remains as stated (ie: suck it up)
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Just Looking2
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Posted - 2005.03.24 17:25:00 -
[6]
Wot Ryctor said
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Big doggy
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Posted - 2005.03.24 17:30:00 -
[7]
What IS the official stance of CCP on this issue?
And why didn't they implement the ore theif flagging system as they said they would? Does anyone know exactely what the facts are? IS there a way for us to find out? |
dantes inferno
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Posted - 2005.03.24 17:45:00 -
[8]
i think a lot of people would stop whining about theifs if they were allowed to retaliate. most people tend to complain aboutt the fact that thiefs are protected by concord rather than the theft itself (lets face it how many policing orginisations would turn a blind eye to you stealing my property but arrest me for retaliating...well apart from the british police that is)
_____
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Just Looking2
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Posted - 2005.03.24 18:12:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Just Looking2 on 24/03/2005 18:16:43
UK Police Force fOr teH w1n
{edit}
This is a typical example of UK policing at its best http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/pages/
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Jakk Graiseach
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Posted - 2005.03.24 18:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dakath
The horse you are flogging is DEAD!
So true...
--
** All accounts cancelled - have fun guys ** |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.03.24 18:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Avon on 24/03/2005 18:39:09
Originally by: dantes inferno
i think a lot of people would stop whining about theifs if they were allowed to retaliate. most people tend to complain aboutt the fact that thiefs are protected by concord rather than the theft itself (lets face it how many policing orginisations would turn a blind eye to you stealing my property but arrest me for retaliating...well apart from the british police that is)
Tenaj is an ore thief.
Tenaj is a member of Huff Technologies.
Huff Tech is a player run corp.
Any player corp can declare war on Huff.
Thus any corp can declare war on Tenaj.
No corp does.
Ergo, no-one has the balls to back up their smack about shooting on ore thieves; what they really want is to try and scare them off. Won't work.
QED.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Verone
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Posted - 2005.03.24 19:20:00 -
[12]
I think i'll make a habit of doing this to these pointless "we hate ore theives" threads...
ohhh... feel teh bat horsey
COME AND SOCIALISE WITH US NASTY SNIGG BASTARDS AT : WWW.SNIGG.CJB.NET |
Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.03.24 20:18:00 -
[13]
A while back, when Jet-Can mining was a new idea and space was littered with happy miners, the first ore theives got to work.
After a bajillion petitions, CCP released an official statement that, while I don't remember the exact wording, I do remember this much.
1. Jet Can mining was determined not to be an exploit. Technically, it is one, but CCP agreed that this made mining much more productive and gave the economy a healthy boost, as well as encourage new players to become old players.
2. Ore theiving was determined not to be an exploit. This is for two reasons. First, part of EVE is that people can choose to be douchebags and a war system was implemented to allow other characters to use game mechanics to cut down on ore theiving themselves. When it's already in the mechanics, there's no point in writing new code. People not using those mechanics are the problem here, not the people using the mechanics to a cruel and heartless end. If a fan runs naked onto the field during a football game and gets clobbered, it's not the football player's fault that the fan wasn't wearing padding. Second, since Jet Can mining is, by technical definition only , an exploit, there's no point in crying foul that someone exploited your using an exploit.
The EVE official statement? Ore theiving and jet can mining are both OK.
"You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!" |
Eviljohn
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Posted - 2005.03.24 22:24:00 -
[14]
Our corp also has 3 active ore thiefs one being my alt because of sec restictions and as avon says lots of ppl say there going to send 400 leet uber fleet to go to war with us to and stop us ever undocking so we have to leave the game or be insta ganked forever(and yes ppl really do say crap like that),but it never happens is easyer to mass gripe on the forums in the vain hope the ccp might get bored of reading the 40000th y cant we sort out ore thiefs post.
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Qayos
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Posted - 2005.03.24 23:20:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Qayos on 24/03/2005 23:30:35
Edited by: Qayos on 24/03/2005 23:21:44
1) If I dont warrant a response, make us both happy and.... DONT RESPOND you dolt. Throw your childish banter into some other thread that does warrant a response.
2) This isnt about me, I'm not a miner. This isn't about Tenaj, I don't care about Tenaj.
3) This IS stated as the official rules of Eve on this very website. I gave you the damn link, click it.
4) Nice logic Avon... there should be a Fallacy to cover that sort of 'logic'.
5) This thread isn't for discussion of jetcans, jetcan mining, impact of ore theft on economy, horses, HUFF, your alt, you, or any such thing.
6) Verone - I dont hate ore theives. This isn't a we hate ore theives thread. You post is therefore off topic and spamilicious... if you've nothing intelligent to say, please don't click that little Reply to Topic button.
The only topic of this thread is determining the official stance of theft in Eve. I quoted what the website states that is. Either comment on that, bring up a counter point, or don't respond. Responding like a 13 year old helps nothing... please stop it.
Please intelligently discuss the topic or don't post. Your childish snide remarks are not needed nor wanted, thanks (*looks at Ryctor*).
EDIT: typos
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Qayos
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Posted - 2005.03.24 23:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Qayos on 24/03/2005 23:40:55
Re: Fallacy...
I guess there is... http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html
EDIT: And here is one for Ryctor... http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.03.24 23:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Avon on 24/03/2005 23:57:49
THIS is CCP's official stance.
I am correct, you are wrong.
Live with it.
Oh, and if you can't be bothered to click...
Quote:
The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
'nuff said.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Qayos
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Posted - 2005.03.25 00:07:00 -
[18]
Now that is a decent counterpoint. However I think they are refering to jetcans when they say "regular containers" as they imply they are free, cargo containers are not free. I was not refering to jetcans, but to non secure Standard Cargo Containers. I was using these specifically to avoid the debate over "jettisoning". That document makes no reference to the rules regarding these containers, only to jetcans and secure cans.
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Qayos
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Posted - 2005.03.25 00:11:00 -
[19]
Hmm, as I said, I'm not a miner... I guess these standard containers are pretty small, there dont seem to be Giant sizes of them so they are rather poor for mining by vets, but I saw a player mining into them just last night, so they are used.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.03.25 01:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Qayos
Now that is a decent counterpoint. However I think they are refering to jetcans when they say "regular containers" as they imply they are free, cargo containers are not free. I was not refering to jetcans, but to non secure Standard Cargo Containers. I was using these specifically to avoid the debate over "jettisoning". That document makes no reference to the rules regarding these containers, only to jetcans and secure cans.
Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street.
Clearly indicating any unsecure container.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Qayos
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Posted - 2005.03.25 03:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Avon
I am correct, you are wrong.
I added your link to the first one, as Eve now has 2 official conflicting positions. I don't see how that makes you right and me wrong. Is my link not to an offical Eve document? Is it not also a more recent document than the one you quoted?
I would say that makes you right, me right, and CCP wrong, as they state both positions which disagree with eachother.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.03.25 10:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Qayos
Originally by: Avon
I am correct, you are wrong.
I added your link to the first one, as Eve now has 2 official conflicting positions. I don't see how that makes you right and me wrong. Is my link not to an offical Eve document? Is it not also a more recent document than the one you quoted?
I would say that makes you right, me right, and CCP wrong, as they state both positions which disagree with eachother.
You really aren't just pretending to be stupid, are you?
The first link you posted was a feature which, like so many others, was dropped before Exodus went live.
It was never in game, it was just a suggested feature.
It isn't a rule.
It isn't a 'stance'.
It is nothing.
Just becuase an old idea is still on the website does not make it policy.
Get over it.
(If you search hard enough there are plenty of other things like that which never made it in game)
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2005.03.25 12:35:00 -
[23]
One would think that after months and months and months of b****ing about it, they would get the point.
Point being, of course, that CCP has done something about the "problem". They've intentionally addressed this exact issue and stated their position unequivocally. Their position is a likely byproduct of the understanding that the real issue (or "problem") does not lay in game mechanics, but in the player.
Thusfar, they've been proven correct (at least, in this issue).
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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Frakri Hogsto
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Posted - 2005.03.25 18:10:00 -
[24]
Must say i agree with avon the care
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Amicus
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Posted - 2005.03.26 01:37:00 -
[25]
After plying him with drinks at the Dev party on March 8, Oveur said that they should have the proposed new system for jet cans soon(tm) [i.e., within the next three months or so]. The new system will allow for shooting ore thieves.
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Kiwimagic
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Posted - 2005.03.27 12:14:00 -
[26]
The on going saga of ore theivery,
Its sux that its part of the game and CCP supports it, but CCP support any act of piracy that slows the game down. they don't care that you had your ore stolen or even if your ship got ganked by pirates they just care about your sbuscription money. Jetcan mining may be an exploit but really who would play eve if they had to haul ore every 2 mintues coz there pathetic secure can was full. And Ore theives I hate you all but you are playing the game your way which is cool so by making it illegal to steal ore from cans is putting you out of pocket. the easiest solution would be to either give the miners a bigger secure container of equal or bigger capacity to a jetcan. Or give the player the ability to defend there property. either doesn't give the other any xtra benefit. miners would have to carry or equip weapons and ore theives wouldn't be able to hide behind concord.
Or make an alt with all the members of your corp, when ever an ore theif turns up log to your alts and kick his butt.
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Big doggy
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Posted - 2005.03.27 15:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 24/03/2005 23:57:49
THIS is CCP's official stance.
I am correct, you are wrong.
Live with it.
Oh, and if you can't be bothered to click...
Quote:
The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
'nuff said.
yea! someone who actually read what the post was about and actually posted the requested information! Bravo! Wow what a mess just to get to this point with the endless useless stupid statements like "oh no not another ore theif post".
Well, I tell you, CCP just said in this statement that if you use unsecured containers you should realize the risk, and yet every day when I steal ore all I hear in local is many dozens of hateful swear words.
Why do I keep stealing ore? Because I steal from such stupid people who prove time and again they deserve to have their ore stolen. Again, recently on several occations the person said "please don't steal my ore, I need it" so I didn't! But the person who says "you blank blank blank blank blank I'm going to get my alt and kill you blank blank", that person deserves to have their ore stolen. They NEVER get their alt and do anything. They're all cowards!
In Isazawa recently I stole this one corps ore about 6 times, one time they had many full jet cans in space and I got ALL of it before they "woke up". But then finally I came back and guess what? They were all quietly mining to a secure can, that was even achored! OMG! I was so proud of them for finally getting it! They hate my guts but they now mine correctly without the semi-exploit of jet can mining. My hat is off to them. And not one nasty word in local. What true gentlemen miners these guys are, and true gamers. Instead of whining they got with the program and solved the problem. |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.03.27 23:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Amicus
After plying him with drinks at the Dev party on March 8, Oveur said that they should have the proposed new system for jet cans soon(tm) [i.e., within the next three months or so]. The new system will allow for shooting ore thieves.
Ahh, so they just didn't have time to implement their new stand on it yet... cool. Well I hope all the miners out there can wait another 3 months (not that they really have a choice) till they can respond in a realistic manner.
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Ryctor
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Posted - 2005.03.27 23:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kaell Meynn
Ahh, so they just didn't have time to implement their new stand on it yet... cool. Well I hope all the miners out there can wait another 3 months (not that they really have a choice) till they can respond in a realistic manner.
Which manner would that be?? The one where they still dont do **** because they are wont sac a mining laser for a weapon?? Nothing will change even with your carebear flaggin system inplace.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.03.29 09:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Avon
That was a proposed part of Exodus which, like so many others, was not implemented.
As such it does not represent CCP's official stance which remains as stated (ie: suck it up)
What it does represent is a statement of intent. So the official stance is actually more along the lines of:
Suck it up for now, until we get the programmer time to implement all these features we haven't got round to yet.
Incidentally, the "missing" features in the Exodus features page are not actually truly overdue yet. We're still in the Exodus phase, they won't be overdue until Kali gets here.....but that's another argument
Originally by: Avon
Tenaj is an ore thief.
Tenaj is a member of Huff Technologies.
Huff Tech is a player run corp.
Any player corp can declare war on Huff.
Thus any corp can declare war on Tenaj.
No corp does.
Ergo, no-one has the balls to back up their smack about shooting on ore thieves; what they really want is to try and scare them off. Won't work.
QED.
Huff Technologies is a large powerful corp. Declaring war on it to get back at one member is a major undertaking. Ergo people choose to suck up the ore theft rather than suck up the punishment Huff would deal out if they declared war. Telling people to war Huff to get at Tenaj is like stealing someone's watch, throwing it into the lion's enclosure and telling them to go fetch it. Sure, it's an option, but not one they can realistically take up. Get Tenaj to join an "average" eve corp, and see how long they go without a war.
Originally by: Avon
Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street.
Though interestingly, people leave their (generally) second-most-valuable possession (their car) lying around on the street all the time, in full public view. Despite this, taking that car is considered stealing regardless of whether you lock the car or not. Just a thought.
Originally by: Ryctor
Which manner would that be?? The one where they still dont do **** because they are wont sac a mining laser for a weapon?? Nothing will change even with your carebear flaggin system inplace.
Things will change....it will just only change for the clever miners. As for me, I'll have two working states. No known ore thieves around = all mining lasers, full profitability. As soon as an ore thief turns up, second char jumps into a thief-ganking ship until the thief is suitably encouraged to find easier hunting grounds.
If we were to consider a game feature a waste just because every single player won't make full or proper use of it, we may as well remove every feature in the game!
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