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Chill5 Ambivalence Co-operative Black Thorne Alliance 0	Posted - 2012.10.18 11:58:00 - [1] - Quote If heavy missiles get a 10% damage nerf will the Nighthawk become too inefficient as a lv4 grinder? As a Nighhawk driver (with over a year's worth of training to optimise the Nighthawk), I sincerely hope not.
Kara Vix Sanford and Son Salvage Peregrine Nation 54	Posted - 2012.10.18 12:12:00 - [2] - Quote 10 percent damage nerf and decreased range will hurt the nighthawk alot, we can only hope that the ship balancing next summer that includes field command ships will put the bird where it should be. Until then, I hope you have cross trained other factions ships. The nighthawk is my favorite ship but it will be docked after the missile changes until next summer.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 389	Posted - 2012.10.18 12:47:00 - [3] - Quote after the missile nerf, even the tengu will be unviable for lvl4s, the nighthawk will be just a lump of metal. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 374	Posted - 2012.10.18 12:48:00 - [4] - Quote The question is... How much that 10% slows down your killing. Are there any mission boats where you barely break the tank? Are there any mission boats you have to kill asap or are in turn decimated by? I doubt this. If a drake with t1 launchers can handle most, if not all level 4s, I doubt your nighthawk will be hurting. Yes, it may be a little slower going. Yes, you won't be blowing up both pockets of world's collide from the warp in. Still, you shoukd not have major problems and if a 10% drop in kill rate is that detrimental, you should probably not be flying the nighthawk in the first place. And if you do, ravens will still work well. Train cal BS to 4,get t2 cruise launchers ans don't stress about it. Besides unless you lose nighthawks regularly or use missions to fund heavy pvp loss, you've built up enough isk that a minor slow down will not hurt you. Basically, a heavy missile nerf does not mean the sky is falling. And if it does... Switch to HAMs, add an mwd, and go that route.
Alexa Coates Red Fleet 234	Posted - 2012.10.18 13:23:00 - [5] - Quote our nighthawks should be using hams anyway. course the 10% nerf aint that bad. That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Kara Vix Sanford and Son Salvage Peregrine Nation 54	Posted - 2012.10.18 14:43:00 - [6] - Quote Alexa Coates wrote: our nighthawks should be using hams anyway. course the 10% nerf aint that bad. Its not just the 10 percent, the flight time and explosion radius change hurt as well. Its not like the nighthawk will be total garbage, but it currently is weaker than it should be and this just makes it worse, especially considering the amount of skills needed to fly it. Not sure I want to use hams on it though.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 390	Posted - 2012.10.18 15:00:00 - [7] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: The question is... How much that 10% slows down your killing. Are there any mission boats where you barely break the tank? Are there any mission boats you have to kill asap or are in turn decimated by? with four faction BCUs and +5 implants, a tengu can BARELY twoshot cruiser and battlecruiser targets in gurista and serpentis missions. a 10% nerf means you have to shoot one more volley or juggle with two or three weapon groups. both will reduce your kill speed significantly. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Veryez Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2012.10.18 15:33:00 - [8] - Quote Kara Vix wrote: 10 percent damage nerf and decreased range will hurt the nighthawk alot, we can only hope that the ship balancing next summer that includes field command ships will put the bird where it should be. Until then, I hope you have cross trained other factions ships. The nighthawk is my favorite ship but it will be docked after the missile changes until next summer. Technically you'll be able to regain some of the range back by using a TE or TC, so the range of heavy missiles won't be as greatly impacted. Of course you'll be most likely dropping a BCU to fit this which will further hurt your DPS. Nonetheless, you'll probably still be able to solo lvl 4's in a nighthawk, it will just be a bit slower. I have said before that I understood the need to nerf damage of Heavy missiles, but nerfing their range didn't make sense as they are (atm) exactly half way between light and cruise missiles in range. But CCP has determined this is the best way, besides the tradeoff is a significant buff to Rockets, Torps and (especially) Hams which is something I am really looking forward too. Having fitting options is always a good thing. I wouldn't expect great changes in t2 ships, and it could well be another year or more before t2 command ships are touched, which is a shame as the nighthawk really needs more grid (or gang links need to use less grid).
Lord Ryan True Xero 730	Posted - 2012.10.18 15:54:00 - [9] - Quote What's important here is that we bring HML'S inline with rails. So what if nighthawk joins the useless. Parrots regurgitate company line below please. Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 151	Posted - 2012.10.18 16:21:00 - [10] - Quote Kara Vix wrote: Alexa Coates wrote: our nighthawks should be using hams anyway. course the 10% nerf aint that bad. Its not just the 10 percent, the flight time and explosion radius change hurt as well. Its not like the nighthawk will be total garbage, but it currently is weaker than it should be and this just makes it worse, especially considering the amount of skills needed to fly it. Not sure I want to use hams on it though. As a Damnation pilot, I feel your pain, but I dont see it making L4's impossible or even that much harder for the NH. It will simply be closer to the bad guys, and take a little longer to kill them. I guess we shall see soon enough (anyone been able to try it on Test yet? I am really curious about the performance of both boats). ~Z
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 4938	Posted - 2012.10.18 16:30:00 - [11] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: after the missile nerf, even the tengu will be unviable for lvl4s, the nighthawk will be just a lump of metal. Nonsense. The HAM tengu will be awesome. Admittedly you'll have to actually fly it a bit rather than just drop can, orbit, but 900 fps is worth a little effort. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button."
Ashimat Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost 76	Posted - 2012.10.18 17:19:00 - [12] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Nonsense. The HAM tengu will be awesome. Admittedly you'll have to actually fly it a bit rather than just drop can, orbit, but 900 fps is worth a little effort. Great! Then I might not need to buy a new gfx-card after all http://rnat-postmortem.blogspot.se
Pillan Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.10.18 17:59:00 - [13] - Quote Ashimat wrote: Malcanis wrote: Nonsense. The HAM tengu will be awesome. Admittedly you'll have to actually fly it a bit rather than just drop can, orbit, but 900 fps is worth a little effort. Great! Then I might not need to buy a new gfx-card after all Loled. +1 for the missile changes that will have to adapt with buying new graphics card
Risien Drogonne Aliastra Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2012.10.19 01:14:00 - [14] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: after the missile nerf, even the tengu will be unviable for lvl4s, the nighthawk will be just a lump of metal. Oh come on. The tengu will still breeze through lvl 4s after the missile nerf. WAY too many people confuse the terms "viable" and "optimal".
Cedo Nulli Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 258	Posted - 2012.10.19 03:33:00 - [15] - Quote Risien Drogonne wrote: WAY too many people confuse the terms "viable" and "optimal". When your trying to make your isk by L4 missions ... you dont want viable .. you want optimal. Anything to shorten the time spent on the next most booring thing after mining in highsec.
Chill5 Ambivalence Co-operative Black Thorne Alliance 0	Posted - 2012.10.19 04:21:00 - [16] - Quote Cedo Nulli wrote: Risien Drogonne wrote: WAY too many people confuse the terms "viable" and "optimal". When your trying to make your isk by L4 missions ... you dont want viable .. you want optimal. Anything to shorten the time spent on the next most booring thing after mining in highsec. This^^ I've probably spent way more than a year on training skills to optimise the Nighthawk for tank and gank (and supporting skills), so my question is related to the effectiveness of the Nighthawk after the nerfs - not any concern about the tank (tank and gank almost maxed) . Missioning is a bread and butter activity, so anything that slows missioning down is going to annoy. With 3 BCUs I get about 550dps, so anything less is going to be of dubious worth. After spending so much time training the extensive skills required to get the most out of the Nighthawk (let alone the original training just so I could fly it), I feel that this nerf may be a game-breaker for me. Just not happy about about this nerf at all.
Hakaimono Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2012.10.19 04:40:00 - [17] - Quote Cedo Nulli wrote: Risien Drogonne wrote: WAY too many people confuse the terms "viable" and "optimal". When your trying to make your isk by L4 missions ... you dont want viable .. you want optimal. Anything to shorten the time spent on the next most booring thing after mining in highsec. This right here is why I got the Vargur. Granted the Mach would be faster and better for blitzing, I still like to loot/salvage while I shoot.
Nihil Nobilitae The Scarlet Storm 1	Posted - 2012.10.19 05:48:00 - [18] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: Lady Ayeipsia wrote: The question is... How much that 10% slows down your killing. Are there any mission boats where you barely break the tank? Are there any mission boats you have to kill asap or are in turn decimated by? with four faction BCUs and +5 implants, a tengu can BARELY twoshot cruiser and battlecruiser targets in gurista and serpentis missions. a 10% nerf means you have to shoot one more volley or juggle with two or three weapon groups. both will reduce your kill speed significantly. In my experience its completely opposite of this. Splitting launchers in to 2 or 3 significantly increases the overall killing speed. Not to mention, with HMLs getting a solid speed boost it will be easier to just swap once you've shot the recuired amount of volleys to kill your target. And then I havent even mentioned HAMs and how it looks like they're gonna be completely amazing.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 4943	Posted - 2012.10.19 06:01:00 - [19] - Quote Ashimat wrote: Malcanis wrote: Nonsense. The HAM tengu will be awesome. Admittedly you'll have to actually fly it a bit rather than just drop can, orbit, but 900 fps is worth a little effort. Great! Then I might not need to buy a new gfx-card after all grrr you win this round, autocorrect! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button."
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 392	Posted - 2012.10.19 06:45:00 - [20] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Daniel Plain wrote: after the missile nerf, even the tengu will be unviable for lvl4s, the nighthawk will be just a lump of metal. Nonsense. The HAM tengu will be awesome. Admittedly you'll have to actually fly it a bit rather than just drop can, orbit, but 900 fps is worth a little effort. when you have to spend half the time 'flying' instead of shooting, your effective dps is cut in half. at that point, you might as well fly an assault frigate. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 677	Posted - 2012.10.19 06:49:00 - [21] - Quote Considering the NH has been considered a bad ship for some time that is out classed by the Tengu in every way anyway, I don't really see how this change is going to change the fact that everyone flies tengus and no one flies nighthawks.
Chill5 Thirsty Spacers 0	Posted - 2012.10.19 07:52:00 - [22] - Quote Have you ever witnessed the passive tank of the Nighthawk at work? Tengu doesn't even come close to the tank on the Nighthawk. The reason why not many people fly the Nighthawk is because the training time is so long. Which is why i'm unhappy about it being indirectly nerfed.
Muad 'dib The Imperial Fedaykin 567	Posted - 2012.10.19 09:44:00 - [23] - Quote people fly nighthawks? http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg
Lin-Young Borovskova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 845	Posted - 2012.10.19 11:38:00 - [24] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: after the missile nerf, even the tengu will be unviable for lvl4s, the nighthawk will be just a lump of metal. You don't know how missiles operate and haven't read last dev blog about missiles, yes fittings changes will be necessary but I'd say Tengu is getting a real huge short range dps buff with these changes, fit it properly and you will be happy. brb
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 376	Posted - 2012.10.19 12:42:00 - [25] - Quote So what do you need all the isk for? Do you need to plex to maintain your accounts? Is it to fund pvp losses? Or do you just crave isk? From the sounds of it, you may find missions take 10% longer. Would a 10% loss in overall isk income truly hurt you? If yes, then this nerf will hurt you. If it means you make 90 mil an hour instead of 100 and oh no your wallet won't grow as fast, but that wallet is never user, who cares? I guess to me it matters more why you need the isk. To fund pvp, yeah the nerf sucks I jope you can find ways to compensate. If you are just on a quest to fatten your wallet, tough luck.
Annubis Lorn Lazarus Triumvirate Ethereal Dawn 6	Posted - 2012.10.19 16:27:00 - [26] - Quote This nerf is just stupid and fail, and anyone who agrees with it follows suit. People complain that HML... (main target of complaint being the Tengu)... are OP... I completely disagree. My question is this.... If you guys are going after OP ships, where and when will the nerf to the Machariel be coming? CCP...... you are ruining Caldari ships... Alliances and Corps are abandoning Caldari ships, and leaving those of us that have always trained Caldari, to start ALL of our training from day 1 again. HML are not OP... Don't go after them when it's really just individual ships that make them seem OP. Nerf the ship, don't ruin Caldari ships for everyone.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 715	Posted - 2012.10.19 18:12:00 - [27] - Quote Chill5 wrote: Have you ever witnessed the passive tank of the Nighthawk at work? Tengu doesn't even come close to the tank on the Nighthawk. But what do you need that tank for? About the only place I've wanted a massive kin/therm passive tank was in some of the heavy neuting Serpentis plexes. For the purpose of L4s there's absolutely no reason to passive tank a Nighthawk and there's little reason to choose one over a Tengu -- and none of those reasons involve increased tanking ability. Chill5 wrote: The reason why not many people fly the Nighthawk is because the training time is so long. Which is why i'm unhappy about it being indirectly nerfed. This is absurd. I've had CS 5 since before T3s were released and I still find precious little use for the Nighthawk despite loving the hull. Training time has nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is that the Tengu is hands down better in almost all circumstances.
Lin-Young Borovskova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 847	Posted - 2012.10.19 18:21:00 - [28] - Quote Major issue here is comparing Nighthawk (battlecruiser command ship badly designed) and T3 witch is a cruiser rather well designed and using the actual strongest med range weapon system. After buff, we'll be using the next strongest thing because another thing will be badly balanced/designed and so on. Can fly them all so I should not even care about this. brb
Arazel Chainfire Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy 133	Posted - 2012.10.19 20:58:00 - [29] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: Malcanis wrote: Daniel Plain wrote: after the missile nerf, even the tengu will be unviable for lvl4s, the nighthawk will be just a lump of metal. Nonsense. The HAM tengu will be awesome. Admittedly you'll have to actually fly it a bit rather than just drop can, orbit, but 900 fps is worth a little effort. when you have to spend half the time 'flying' instead of shooting, your effective dps is cut in half. at that point, you might as well fly an assault frigate. Well, luckily CCP has decided to address these issues, and have only postponed the TE/TD changes for missiles. Which means that the current 30km range on HAM's (and almost double killspeed compared to HM's), will stretch out, probably exceeding 40-50km without needing to switch to javelins. I don't know about you, but I can't think that you'll have to worry much about travel time with a 40km range and 1km/s speed w/ AB on. Of course... it may just be that I'm competent enough to point my ship at a target and move in its direction, and turn on the (permarunning) AB. I understand if you find this difficult though... Annubis Lorn wrote: This nerf is just stupid and fail, and anyone who agrees with it follows suit. People complain that HML... (main target of complaint being the Tengu)... are OP... I completely disagree. My question is this.... If you guys are going after OP ships, where and when will the nerf to the Machariel be coming? CCP...... you are ruining Caldari ships... Alliances and Corps are abandoning Caldari ships, and leaving those of us that have always trained Caldari, to start ALL of our training from day 1 again. HML are not OP... Don't go after them when it's really just individual ships that make them seem OP. Nerf the ship, don't ruin Caldari ships for everyone. As for this, you obviously haven't played eve for very long. The nerf to the machariel is coming - eventually. And you have had a good 4 years with heavy missiles sitting in their nice OP position, which is far longer than lasers got, or nano, or really anything else. Remember, - nerfs and buffs in eve go around and come around, and everything will have its time eventually. And yes, it was heavy missiles that were the problem, not the ships. Ships that use heavy missiles are the drake, the tengu, the nighthawk, the cerberus, and the caracel. Of those ships, the drake and tengu were so good with HM's that HAM's were useless, and they outclassed all other longrange cruiser/BC sized vessels by a long shot - competing with the shortrange variants. As for the other three ships... the nighthawk has been pathetic for years due to fitting issues, the cerb lacks the necessary speed to actually be viable, and the caracel suffers from cruiser syndrome. So you have 3 crap platforms, and 2 decent platforms, but the decent platforms were made OP by the fact that that particular weapon system was OP. So the weapons are being nerfed to where they belong, (they really should have stuck with the 20% damage nerf though) and now they can actually properly balance these ships. Amazing... -Arazel
Veryez Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2012.10.19 22:29:00 - [30] - Quote Zhilia Mann wrote: Chill5 wrote: The reason why not many people fly the Nighthawk is because the training time is so long. Which is why i'm unhappy about it being indirectly nerfed. This is absurd. I've had CS 5 since before T3s were released and I still find precious little use for the Nighthawk despite loving the hull. Training time has nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is that the Tengu is hands down better in almost all circumstances. It's not as absurd as you think, t3's are great ships for newer players. The training time is very minimal and you can be very effective in a very quick time. Many players train for and fly t3's almost from day 1. From a marketing standpoint, t3's gave CCP the ability to allow new players to fly a very effective ship and be on par w/veterans. Their generous fitting stats, means it's easy to fit w/o AWU 5. Up until this next release, the ability to eject from a t3 before it blows allowed these players to avoid the skill point loss, and thus had no real negatives (except cost, but most alliances help w/that). I have always looked at t3's as new player ships, which is probably why I refuse to train them (that and I would probably hang myself before I re-train skills). I can't count how many times I've been asked to train for this t3, or that one. Even been offered them well below cost if I'll train for them. I just won't. I hope CCP gets around to re-balancing t2 ships in the next 2 years, because most are very good, but there still are some clunkers. So if you're looking at it from the point of a 4 month player who's good in a t3, the training time to be good in a command ship is much, much longer, and they feel cheated.

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