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Amicus
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Posted - 2005.03.28 23:26:00 -
[1]
PROBLEM: As a specialist in Gallente ships I have noted that their inability to use defender missiles is a huge weakness of about half the Gallente ship lines (e.g., Taranis, Ishkur, Dominix, Thorax). Smart bombs were apparently supposed to be the solution for this imbalance, but these ships rely heavily on drones, which get blown up by smart bombs. Smart bombs are not easy to use against missiles anyway, usually catching only a small percentage of incoming missiles and using up a lot of cap. Combine their ineffectiveness with their enmity towards drones, and smart bombs become an unacceptable weapon for the very ships for which they appear to have been designed.
PROPOSAL: Introduce a new line of smart bombs that only damage missiles.
I am not suggesting that these new smart bomb use less cap or be more effective than current models against missiles. They can be just as ineffective against missiles. However, limit their damage to missiles, so that drone users can use this ineffective defense without also sacrificing their main weapon.
I know that the DevÆs once proposed having smart bombs only damage opponents, and that caused an outcry. Well the proposed defender smart bombs cannot be used to set up insta-gank zones, since they only damage missiles. They could be limited to no larger than medium size, so that anti-missile zones would also be difficult to arrange. Certainly a collection of scorpions with defender missiles can already create more effective anti-missile zones than would be possible with a collection of Appocs armed with the proposed medium defender smart bombs (and I believe that the scorpions would still have cap left to do some offensive damage).
I have noted ideas in the past proposed for flak guns, missiles-targeting turrets, etc. The above proposal is not an overhaul of the current design, but something that should be more easily implemented (especially given that something similar was already proposed by the Devs  ). The goal of the proposal is simply to give the ships that cannot mount defender missiles something halfway approaching defenders in effectiveness. This is similar to the changes made to missiles to eliminate splash damage - making them more useful.
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Dr LoveJoy
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Posted - 2005.03.28 23:51:00 -
[2]
give ships a EW high slot module that has a chance to scramble the targeting on missiles.. give it a high CPU req and a high cap usage 5 sec cycle and 8 km range with a chance of stoping based on the lvl u have trained energy pulse weapons and electronic warfare.. or somthing lol
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Camping a gate near u...SoonÖ |
Amicus
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Posted - 2005.03.29 00:05:00 -
[3]
Hi Lovejoy,
Thanks for the input. I would not mind your solution, but currently EW does not work on NPCs. EW works on all weapons now, so I also suspect that making an EW module that works only for missiles would require some lengthy design changes. However, a limit on damage for smart bombs similar to the above proposal was already in the works last year, so I expect it would be simple for the Devs to implement. I was really trying get smart bombs to live up to their apparent purpose, i.e., the non-missile user's missile defense.
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Dr LoveJoy
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Posted - 2005.03.29 00:32:00 -
[4]
yeah if u think about it only 2 races have a defence against missiles even if both are kinda broken..
Caldari have the most launcher slots so defenders would be theres while Amarr have fast cap charging usualy so can support smartbombs (i'll admit there all but useless and blowing something up inside your ship to stop missiles makes little sence lol)
Gallente cant mount a effective defence cus they lack both the CPU/Grid to mount SBs twithought gimping the hell outa there setup and next to no Launcher slots..
Minmitar can kinda use both but suffer the same as the Gallente to a lesser degree..
Missiles aint overpowerd the defence against them is underpowerd..
Gallentes could perhaps have missile intercepter drones
While the Flak systems ppl have suggested would be great for Minmatar but the tempest for instance would need 2 more non descript high slots and i dont think CCP will raise the number from 8 to 10.
If we saw better ways to defend against missiles we would have to see some drastic changes to Caldari warfare..
if fitting 2 of the new modules or haveing a hold full of missile defence drones negated all the firepower of a Raven for instance Caldari would need there own 4th turret type as missiles take a back seat.. rails simply aint good enough..
i wouldent mind it if caldaris turret of choice was Projectiles but that would take alot away from the Minmatar and tbh they need all the help they can get.
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Camping a gate near u...SoonÖ |
Stone Blackmouth
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Posted - 2005.03.29 00:42:00 -
[5]
I saw this in another post and I liked it for point defense systems:
Caldari - Missile bay (check)
Amarr - laser
Minmatar - Projectile
Gallente - Hybrid and/or drones
There was a thread that suggested that they made a special ship called the Aegis Battlecruiser.
I don't know if it would warrant a new class of ship, but at least have the option for a Point Defense system for the above - all balanced to be equivalent to the defender missiles today of course.
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"There's isk in those darn hills!!!" |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.03.29 01:03:00 -
[6]
The reason that most simulation games of this type have missile defenses is because missiles tend to have either alpha-strike capability or better DoT then turrets.
In EVE, missiles of the same size as the target do not have alpha-strike capability or better DoT then turrets.
Each of the ships you mentioned does have missile defenses - killing the missile boat. The best defense is a good offense, and each of the ships you named has excellent offense (and reasonably decent tanking as well).
 Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Dr LoveJoy
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Posted - 2005.03.29 01:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
The reason that most simulation games of this type have missile defenses is because missiles tend to have either alpha-strike capability or better DoT then turrets.
In EVE, missiles of the same size as the target do not have alpha-strike capability or better DoT then turrets.
Each of the ships you mentioned does have missile defenses - killing the missile boat. The best defense is a good offense, and each of the ships you named has excellent offense (and reasonably decent tanking as well).
Cool then every on can stop calling for a nerf to my lovely raven..
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Camping a gate near u...SoonÖ |
Amicus
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Posted - 2005.03.29 01:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
In EVE, missiles of the same size as the target do not have . . . better DoT then turrets.
That is an interesting fact Dutch. Where do you get your data for that?
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.03.29 02:56:00 -
[9]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 29/03/2005 02:56:50
Originally by: Dr LoveJoy
Cool then every on can stop calling for a nerf to my lovely raven..
No, missiles still badly need a rebalance to fix the oversized weapons problem. I would also argue that cruise missiles need to be faster, and possibly do 10% or so more damage. Quote:
That is an interesting fact Dutch. Where do you get your data for that?
A stock tech1 raven will do 225 DpS with torpedos. A stock tech1 electron blasterthron will do 288 DpS with lvl 4 skills. A stock tech1 megapulse armageddon will do 295 DpS with lvl 4 skills.
These figures were done with lvl 4 skills, ship bonuses, close-ranged ammo, and no damage/tracking mods.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Stone Blackmouth
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Posted - 2005.03.29 03:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Stone Blackmouth on 29/03/2005 03:19:39
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
A stock tech1 raven will do 225 DpS with torpedos. A stock tech1 electron blasterthron will do 288 DpS with lvl 4 skills. A stock tech1 megapulse armageddon will do 295 DpS with lvl 4 skills.
These figures were done with lvl 4 skills, ship bonuses, close-ranged ammo, and no damage/tracking mods.
I'll assume that those damages are at each ship's optimal range.
The difference between those is that a Raven can do that DPS at 10 m to 120 km (the only exception is the initial time for the first barage of missiles to hit).
The range at which the other ships can do damage is narrow, but can be alliviated by changing ammo and crystal types at the cost of DPS.
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"There's isk in those darn hills!!!" |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.03.29 05:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Stone Blackmouth
I'll assume that those damages are at each ship's optimal range.
The difference between those is that a Raven can do that DPS at 10 m to 120 km (the only exception is the initial time for the first barage of missiles to hit).
The range at which the other ships can do damage is narrow, but can be alliviated by changing ammo and crystal types at the cost of DPS.
Yes, these comparisons were done ignoring tracking and assuming ships were at their optimals.
A raven cannot do 225 DPS at 120k. The time for weapons to reach their target must be taken into consideration, the spreadsheet I use for that is HERE.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Stone Blackmouth
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Posted - 2005.03.29 06:05:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Stone Blackmouth on 29/03/2005 06:45:10
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
A raven cannot do 225 DPS at 120k. The time for weapons to reach their target must be taken into consideration, the spreadsheet I use for that is HERE.
Actually over infinite amount of time (whereby the initial travel time to the target is averaged out), it will.
The other ships will have a DPS of 0 or not close to their max with a sniper setup OR alot of sensor boosters from an adjacent ship.
Lets assume that a torpedo moves at 1,000 m/s and a Raven has a RoF of 16 seconds.
It would take 2 minutes (the maximum length of time a torpedo will fly), to get to its target of 120 km.
Therefore 2 minutes and 16 seconds the 2nd wave of missiles will hit, and 16 seconds after that, etc...
The first 179 seconds at 120km the Raven would do 0 damage.
Here's a chart:
Salvos Seconds 120 km 16 km
=========================
1 16 0% 100%
2 32 0% 100%
3 48 0% 100%
4 64 0% 100%
5 80 0% 100%
6 96 0% 100%
7 112 0% 100%
8 128 0% 100%
9 144 0% 100%
10 160 0% 100%
11 176 0% 100%
<-- at 180 seconds first salvo hits -->
12 192 8.33% 100%
13 208 15.38% 100%
14 224 21.43% 100%
15 240 26.67% 100%
...
22 352 50.00% 100%
...
44 704 75.00% 100%
...
110 1760 90.00% 100%
...
220 3520 95.00% 100%
First off you'll run out of missiles unless you had an industrial there feeding it to you.
11 Salvos of missiles would be in the air before the first one hit. After that the DPS would be just like if you were at 16km.
Of course who in their right mind would stand still as 66 torpedos are in the air coming at them?
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"There's isk in those darn hills!!!" |
Dr LoveJoy
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Posted - 2005.03.29 10:01:00 -
[13]
turning into a nerftehmissile thread guys its about missile defence
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Camping a gate near u...SoonÖ |
Amicus
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Posted - 2005.03.29 20:33:00 -
[14]
Dutch,
In calculating the DOT for the different weapon types, are you including %chance of missing or doing less than maxium damage? It is my understanding the missiles do not have either of these limits (i.e., provided the target does not retreat out of their range). I am still not convinced that it is balanced for the only ships that have any defense against missiles to be those with missile turrets. If you cannot hit your opponent consistently for heavy damage, while your opponent can do so to you, then offense is not the best defense.
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