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Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 382	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:27:00 - [1] - Quote So that the worst items in the game can be sold for less than the best items in the game. Or redo all the manufactured items so that they're better than the crap that drops off of NPC's in high sec. I don't think that it's fair that the best items in the game sell for less than it costs for a manufacturer to build the worst, when it isn't making an item only worth building to use in T2 production; no one's buying a missile launcher off me to build a T2 version. Or at least give us the ability to do something during the manufacturing process that would allow us to increase the meta level of produced items. It seems out of place to have items that are made out of thin are, with next to no reprocessing value, and that are better to use, in a game that revolves around a player run economy; where the players build the loot. Everyone seems more concerned with what one group or the other can or can't do, and very little attention ever seems to be paid to a part of the game that has a considerable impact on everyone. The economy. Why does no one ever complain about this? Am I the only one that sees Meta 4 items on the market and thinks, what a ***** piece of slap in the *** face this ** is?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 10112	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:30:00 - [2] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Why does no one ever complain about this? Because the players set the price. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
Louise Antwoord The Scope Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:33:00 - [3] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: I don't think that it's fair
Rordan D'Kherr Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 123	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:36:00 - [4] - Quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand You are welcome.
Ginger Barbarella State War Academy Caldari State 201	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:37:00 - [5] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: So that the worst items in the game can be sold for less than the best items in the game. Or redo all the manufactured items so that they're better than the crap that drops off of NPC's in high sec. I don't think that it's fair that the best items in the game sell for less than it costs for a manufacturer to build the worst, when it isn't making an item only worth building to use in T2 production; no one's buying a missile launcher off me to build a T2 version. Or at least give us the ability to do something during the manufacturing process that would allow us to increase the meta level of produced items. It seems out of place to have items that are made out of thin are, with next to no reprocessing value, and that are better to use, in a game that revolves around a player run economy; where the players build the loot. Everyone seems more concerned with what one group or the other can or can't do, and very little attention ever seems to be paid to a part of the game that has a considerable impact on everyone. The economy. Why does no one ever complain about this? Am I the only one that sees Meta 4 items on the market and thinks, what a ***** piece of slap in the *** face this ** is? Couldn't find CAOD?? It's that way... ----- >>>
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 382	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:37:00 - [6] - Quote Tippia wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: Why does no one ever complain about this? Because the players set the price. That's not an excuse for having NPC loot that is better than what industrialists can build, also have a minimum value far below the player made item. By making everything have no reprocessing value, in an effort to buff mining, they made all the best in slot items cheaper than all of the worst items. My **** is statiscally worse to use, while also being the most expensive to purchase. That's ass backwards.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 382	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:40:00 - [7] - Quote Rordan D'Kherr wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand You are welcome. This isn't supply and demand. This is, player made items have worse stats than named npc loot, but the most mineral investment. It costs 50k to build said item, while the NPC loot variant with bettter stats can be sold for 3k isk on the market and make a profit. Gues what people AREN'T buying, the ** made by the player. The cheap should be the cheapest **, not the most expensive. WTF.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 382	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:42:00 - [8] - Quote Ginger Barbarella wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: So that the worst items in the game can be sold for less than the best items in the game. Or redo all the manufactured items so that they're better than the crap that drops off of NPC's in high sec. I don't think that it's fair that the best items in the game sell for less than it costs for a manufacturer to build the worst, when it isn't making an item only worth building to use in T2 production; no one's buying a missile launcher off me to build a T2 version. Or at least give us the ability to do something during the manufacturing process that would allow us to increase the meta level of produced items. It seems out of place to have items that are made out of thin are, with next to no reprocessing value, and that are better to use, in a game that revolves around a player run economy; where the players build the loot. Everyone seems more concerned with what one group or the other can or can't do, and very little attention ever seems to be paid to a part of the game that has a considerable impact on everyone. The economy. Why does no one ever complain about this? Am I the only one that sees Meta 4 items on the market and thinks, what a ***** piece of slap in the *** face this ** is? Couldn't find CAOD?? It's that way... ----- >>> This isn't a corp or alliance issue, this is something that effects every single person that builds something in the game.
Zimmy Zeta Paramount Commerce 2418	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:45:00 - [9] - Quote About the only tech 1 product you can manufacture for pofit is ammo. But it takes a while to realize that, and especially beginners are so proud when they build their first missile launcher (off a 0 ME 0 PE Blueprint with maybe 2 ranks in Production efficiency), that it often takes months until they realize that they are actually losing money with it. I know at least two Highsec-centered players (avoiding the bear word for now) who somehow feel obliged to build their mission boats and all oft its modules and ammo themselves- without any skills to make it even remotably cost effective. It's maybe an RP-thing, I don't know. For best results and enhanced forum experience, please read my posts in Snooki's voice*
Simetraz State War Academy Caldari State 453	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:45:00 - [10] - Quote OP because everyone is trying to remove all PVP and all level 4 missions from high-sec. If you remove all the reasons to buy combat ships in high-sec then your market will have more supply then demand. Basically the less ISk high-sec players get the less they spend. So they buy less and that has a direct effect on the T2 market. EVERYBODY KNOWS
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:47:00 - [11] - Quote Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do. See in order to invent, I need a pos for invention slots and bpcs. To make bpcs, i need bpos. I've already researched the bpos to perfect me levels because I have had time to do so while copying other bpos. (no one makes just 1 type of t2 mod in case the market shifts). So really, if I have all the tools and resources to make t1 mods at the same cost as you included in my t2 production plans, why would I voluntarily lose money by purchasing your mods? Also, remember I am but one industrialist out of many. Many of us can make missile launchers and chose to do so. You need to find a more niche market. For example, I dabble in large mobile warp disruptors and their t2 variants. Not as many people make those. It does take more skills and initial investment, but I can be one of a few instead of the masses. So instead of complaining, start working towards something bigger and better. Either find a niche t1 market, get into invention, or both.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 382	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:51:00 - [12] - Quote Simetraz wrote: OP because everyone is trying to remove all PVP and all level 4 missions from high-sec. If you remove all the reasons to buy combat ships in high-sec then your market will have more supply then demand. Basically the less ISk high-sec players get the less they spend. So they buy less and that has a direct effect on the T2 market. The T1 market is my concern though, and it can't be dismissed. I'd be curious what the ratio of buying and selling is between T1 and T2 items. I'm sure T1 is much higher, but I wonder by what margin. Do people realize that if all indy guys stoped building everything but Ammo and ships, you probably wouldn't even notice, unless you're like that one guy that actually buys manufactured items off the market to build T2 items with. If there was actually a market for T1 items because of T2 production, as in people buy T1 items to build T2 items with, then there wouldn't be a problem. However, there isn't a market. No one would be impacted if all T1 gun and launcher production stopped tomorrow. It wouldn't even have an impact on the market. Why don't more people see this as a problem?
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:54:00 - [13] - Quote Also, you are encountering a changing market. Not too long ago, ccp did not list the isk value of loot. An item lije the pwnage (meta 4) target painter was rare and the only way to realize it was worth 6 mil isk was to either sell near a market hub or be in a location with very combatative buyers. When it cost 6 mil, a t2 target painter at 1 mil was a steal. Now... Why invent t2 tps when I can buy a meta 4 version that is better in all regards and costs a quarter as much? So really, reducing buikd cost won't change much because so many other factors are in play. It's like the guy complaining that making rifters are a losing deal. Well... It's a cheap ship that you get 5 of while running the minmatar tutorial for free, so there us a huge supply coming in at 0 cost. Plus, with the frig rebalance, other combat frigs like the Merlin, punisher, and incursis are in more demand, reducing the demand for Rifters. Changing build cost won't fix the excess supply and lower demand. To make a profit, you **** to something else.
Zimmy Zeta Paramount Commerce 2418	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:56:00 - [14] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: No one would be impacted if all T1 gun and launcher production stopped tomorrow. It wouldn't even have an impact on the market. Why don't more people see this as a problem? Because no one would be impacted. (...) It wouldn't even have an impact on the market. That's why people don't see it as a problem. For best results and enhanced forum experience, please read my posts in Snooki's voice
Felicity Love SIDERION JUMPSHIPS 11	Posted - 2012.10.25 17:59:00 - [15] - Quote Quite a profit in T1, "meta 0", GALLENTE Fuel Blocks these days... or did the OP not get the internal memo ?
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:00:00 - [16] - Quote We don't see it as a problem because we have all progressed to t2 production. Indy, like any other career path in eve, involves growth. Like a mission runner, miner, etc, you start small and grow. T1 mods are like level 1 missions or mining in a frig. Give it a month and you'll be on to bigger, better, more profitable items. Heck, you do realize that until recently t1 meta 0 loot also dropped in missions. There was even less incentive then to make the mods because it was far cheaper to buy. It's only within the last 3 months or so that it became cheaper to make t1 mods for use in t2 production.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 382	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:00:00 - [17] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do. See in order to invent, I need a pos for invention slots and bpcs. To make bpcs, i need bpos. I've already researched the bpos to perfect me levels because I have had time to do so while copying other bpos. (no one makes just 1 type of t2 mod in case the market shifts). So really, if I have all the tools and resources to make t1 mods at the same cost as you included in my t2 production plans, why would I voluntarily lose money by purchasing your mods? Also, remember I am but one industrialist out of many. Many of us can make missile launchers and chose to do so. You need to find a more niche market. For example, I dabble in large mobile warp disruptors and their t2 variants. Not as many people make those. It does take more skills and initial investment, but I can be one of a few instead of the masses. So instead of complaining, start working towards something bigger and better. Either find a niche t1 market, get into invention, or both. This could be a part of the problem. You're explaining the issue here. You DON'T buy for T2 production, because that would be stupid. Right? You should be building the stuff yourself. And you DON'T just build T2 items. Neither do I. Of course I build launchers, and yes some people actually buy them; so I make money on them. However. My luancher cost 40k to make. Even if I sell it for 41k I'll get one or two sales every couple of days. Why? Because the ***** gun that was dropped off an NPC, that seems to have a never ending *** supply, sells for *** 10k isk, and 100 ***** people purchased one in a single day. Why are people ok with this? Are you not industrialists who rely on building and selling things? Or are the the guys that actually aquire all the best items in the game that you can sell for less than what us horrible industrialists make? I don't need suggestions to improve my portfolio guys, I'm just wondering why more people aren't asking for this to be corrected. They don't want you to reprocess NPC loot into minerals, so they make NPC loot reprocess into nothing, which in turn makes that loot able to be sold for rediculously cheap prices. I am assuming that NPC loot gets sold for more than it costs in ammo to aquire it.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 301	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:00:00 - [18] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Why does no one ever complain about this? Hi, Welcome to GD. How can we be of service today? *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 340	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:00:00 - [19] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: So that the worst items in the game can be sold for less than the best items in the game. Or redo all the manufactured items so that they're better than the crap that drops off of NPC's in high sec. I don't think that it's fair that the best items in the game sell for less than it costs for a manufacturer to build the worst, when it isn't making an item only worth building to use in T2 production; no one's buying a missile launcher off me to build a T2 version. Or at least give us the ability to do something during the manufacturing process that would allow us to increase the meta level of produced items. It seems out of place to have items that are made out of thin are, with next to no reprocessing value, and that are better to use, in a game that revolves around a player run economy; where the players build the loot. Everyone seems more concerned with what one group or the other can or can't do, and very little attention ever seems to be paid to a part of the game that has a considerable impact on everyone. The economy. Why does no one ever complain about this? Am I the only one that sees Meta 4 items on the market and thinks, what a ***** piece of slap in the *** face this ** is? This is one of the most pubbie posts i have ever seen from a goon tbh.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 10115	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:01:00 - [20] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: That's not an excuse for having NPC loot that is better than what industrialists can build, also have a minimum value far below the player made item. It's not an excuse. It's just a fact that makes it a non-issue (well, that and the existence of T2). Quote: This isn't supply and demand. Yes it is. The reason it's cheaper is because there is a massive supply and/or very little demand (most likely GÇ£andGÇ¥). If they were strictly better and correspondingly used more, they would be more expensive. They aren't because they aren't as much in demand as T1 modules. Zimmy Zeta wrote: About the only tech 1 product you can manufacture for pofit is ammo. GÇªand ships and quite a few modules, especially the more advanced ones. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:07:00 - [21] - Quote Felicity Love wrote: Quite a profit in T1, "meta 0", GALLENTE Fuel Blocks these days... or did the OP not get the internal memo ? That is a huge lie. Due to the rise in isotope prices, you make less profit on gallante than amarr. Perhaps if you mine your own ice, but you would risk losing your ship to the goons, leading to an increased cost that the extra 1% profit made by making fuel blocks would be harder to cover. If you have gallante isotopes, better to sell them on the market, buy helium or other isotopes and make other fuel for 10% more profit. Or... Better yet, use the robotics and mechanical parts to make t2 weapon upgrades. Turn your coolant to ticket fuel instead and make t2 missiles and profit more.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 383	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:18:00 - [22] - Quote Tippia wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: That's not an excuse for having NPC loot that is better than what industrialists can build, also have a minimum value far below the player made item. It's not an excuse. It's just a fact that makes it a non-issue (well, that and the existence of T2). Quote: This isn't supply and demand. Yes it is. The reason it's cheaper is because there is a massive supply and/or very little demand (most likely GÇ£andGÇ¥). If they were strictly better and correspondingly used more, they would be more expensive. They aren't because they aren't as much in demand as T1 modules. Zimmy Zeta wrote: About the only tech 1 product you can manufacture for pofit is ammo. GÇªand ships and quite a few modules, especially the more advanced ones. Arbalest torbedo laucher, Today so far sold 1500+ Torpedo launcher 2, today sold 272. Torpedo 1 launcher, today sold 263 Jita. T1 items are in more demand than T2. Can anyone explain what the purpose of having the worst items being made by players. I do not believe that the purpose of T1 items is to build T2 items. You would think that industrialists would want their stuff to actually sell better. The market is based almost entirely on NPC loot. How is this cool with people that are constantly throwing the "it's a sandbox" excuse around to support their desired playstle?
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:19:00 - [23] - Quote Tippia wrote: Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do. GÇªand in doing so you waste production slots on stuff that makes very little difference for your margin and which robs you of a much larger profit margin. Once you get the volume up, it's quite easy to get to a point where it's better to just buy all the T1 crap. For me, buying isn't worth it. It's 2 days to make the items I need for 10 days of production. I can't copy and invent at a fast enough rate due to my limited number of indy toons and the fact that I like to pvp instead of cycle inventions every 1.5 hours. I could get help, but then I split costs. So for me, and many other lower level manufactorers, it is cheaper to make my own. Additionally, we are getting into the realm of how much isk per hour per slot makes oneself happy. True, I could go crazy, math it out, and maximize my profit per slot hour. However, I don't enjoy that. I do enough to fund my pvp and grow my wallet well enough. I don't tend to one isk war or try to setup buy orders to get building materials cheaper. I do know enough to check ky math first and make sure I profit after factoring in datacores, etc. Still on average 500k per mod made is enough to make me quiet happy.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:24:00 - [24] - Quote Torp launchers are a horrible item to pick. T2 fitting requirements are brutal. Even with perfect fitting you will have troubke getting 3 t2 launchers, cloak, and bomb on a bomber. Arbalast are much more forgiving there. Additionally, it's 3-4 weeks training time between arbs and t2. So yeah, t2s don't sell as much because the demand is lower. And again, part if this springs from ccp listing the value of an item. Before that change, many newer players would sell arbs at a very low price or not at all and just reprocess them. Ccp listing the value in your inventory changed that and greatly reduced the costs of meta loot.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 383	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:26:00 - [25] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Tippia wrote: Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do. GÇªand in doing so you waste production slots on stuff that makes very little difference for your margin and which robs you of a much larger profit margin. Once you get the volume up, it's quite easy to get to a point where it's better to just buy all the T1 crap. For me, buying isn't worth it. It's 2 days to make the items I need for 10 days of production. I can't copy and invent at a fast enough rate due to my limited number of indy toons and the fact that I like to pvp instead of cycle inventions every 1.5 hours. I could get help, but then I split costs. So for me, and many other lower level manufactorers, it is cheaper to make my own. Additionally, we are getting into the realm of how much isk per hour per slot makes oneself happy. True, I could go crazy, math it out, and maximize my profit per slot hour. However, I don't enjoy that. I do enough to fund my pvp and grow my wallet well enough. I don't tend to one isk war or try to setup buy orders to get building materials cheaper. I do know enough to check ky math first and make sure I profit after factoring in datacores, etc. Still on average 500k per mod made is enough to make me quiet happy. It still doesn't justify why the most in demand items in the game are supplied by mission, ratter, and complex runners. If it's to ensure that they're making enough isk, CCP can always change mission payouts.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 340	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:31:00 - [26] - Quote Why shouldn't they be tbh? All someone building t1 mods is doing is making ore that appeared out of thin air into a mod from an npc bpo. There is pretty much no difference.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 10118	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:32:00 - [27] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Arbalest torbedo laucher, Today so far sold 1500+ Torpedo launcher 2, today sold 272. Torpedo 1 launcher, today sold 263 Jita. T1-áHigh Meta items are in more demand than T2. GÇªbecause of fitting requirements, skill requirements, and because you've picked a module that has a very peculiar (read: not representative) use pattern. Bombers fit meta launchers because T2 take too much space, and the only ships where T2 launchers fit and make sense is the Golem, which sucks. In addition, the ships that fit the meta launchers are used in PvP, where they pop with some frequency, whereas the ships that fit the T2 launchers are not and do not. So that's pretty much to be expected. Oh, and Arbalests costs hell of a lot more than T1s, so they don't really illustrate your point that well in that regard either. Can anyone explain what the purpose of having the worst items being made by players.[/quote]Universal availability. It may be worse, but there's no chance that you'll run out. It's much the same as Meta 4 vs. Meta 5. Quote: I do not believe that the purpose of T1 items is to build T2 items. It is these days. Hell, if low-meta items are that cheap, their purpose is also to build T2 items. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 383	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:33:00 - [28] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Torp launchers are a horrible item to pick. T2 fitting requirements are brutal. Even with perfect fitting you will have troubke getting 3 t2 launchers, cloak, and bomb on a bomber. Arbalast are much more forgiving there. Additionally, it's 3-4 weeks training time between arbs and t2. So yeah, t2s don't sell as much because the demand is lower. And again, part if this springs from ccp listing the value of an item. Before that change, many newer players would sell arbs at a very low price or not at all and just reprocess them. Ccp listing the value in your inventory changed that and greatly reduced the costs of meta loot. Every NPC dropped EM armor hardener sells 50x more than the player made one in jita, and about 2x more than the T2 version. Why must it be that the NPC loot one is better than the player made one? What's wrong with it being the other way around?
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 380	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:34:00 - [29] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Tippia wrote: Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do. GÇªand in doing so you waste production slots on stuff that makes very little difference for your margin and which robs you of a much larger profit margin. Once you get the volume up, it's quite easy to get to a point where it's better to just buy all the T1 crap. For me, buying isn't worth it. It's 2 days to make the items I need for 10 days of production. I can't copy and invent at a fast enough rate due to my limited number of indy toons and the fact that I like to pvp instead of cycle inventions every 1.5 hours. I could get help, but then I split costs. So for me, and many other lower level manufactorers, it is cheaper to make my own. Additionally, we are getting into the realm of how much isk per hour per slot makes oneself happy. True, I could go crazy, math it out, and maximize my profit per slot hour. However, I don't enjoy that. I do enough to fund my pvp and grow my wallet well enough. I don't tend to one isk war or try to setup buy orders to get building materials cheaper. I do know enough to check ky math first and make sure I profit after factoring in datacores, etc. Still on average 500k per mod made is enough to make me quiet happy. It still doesn't justify why the most in demand items in the game are supplied by mission, ratter, and complex runners. If it's to ensure that they're making enough isk, CCP can always change mission payouts. No they can't. Only a small portion of all mission runners loot. Many just burn through, relying on speed and bounties alone to make their income. If you raise the isk payout, more isk is thrown into the economy. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, that is bad. Extra isk means people will pay more, increasing the cost of items for every one. Look at plex prices recently. One group (faction warfare farmers) gained a huge increase in isk. They in turn spent that on plex, driving the price up (supply stated the same), which lead to an inflated market. So really, just throwing isk at the problem isn't the solution.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 10118	Posted - 2012.10.25 18:34:00 - [30] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Why must it be that the NPC loot one is better than the player made one? Funnily enough, the player-made one is better. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.

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