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Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.27 10:06:00 - [1] - Quote So being a nullsec miner the rat target chaing worried me . So i went to the test server and tried out mining under the new ai. Using the ussuall battleship capstable belt tank getting all the agro i warped the mining fleet in and within seconds all the rats had changed targets to focusing down a hulk, Mind you we mine in hulks out here, the odd person has used a skiff as a belt tank for the rats pre patch but most allready had pve toons with cap stable BS's to tank the rats so they used them. Now with all the rats on my hulk i turned on the reppers and watched them unable to keep up. With a faction invul field and a-type shield booster i was no where near being able to tank the damage from 3 frigates and 2 battleships. So here are a few problems i see with this, Being in the allready ** state of mining nullsec mining aside from ark and bistot and the 2 h ores is almost barely more profitable than highsec mining which goes against how you ccp intends nullsec to be. While the rats are bigger and meaner out here are mining ships really ment to not be able to tank the rats? If everything even battleships swap to mining barges that are deadspace fit and still cant tank them how is this setup properly? Not only is there an insanely long train for a hulk but now pilots need to train a good month-2 months of tanking skills to even not get alphad by the rats. Forget t1 mining barges while they could survive before becuase of a belt tank now there is no hope for anyone in a t1 mining barge in nullsec. I dont even want to think of how fast industrial ships will die trying to warp in to scoop ore from the jetcans if the rats are swaping within seconds to the hulks. If this change and neglect of mining in nullsec with the rat ai is ment to make nullsec mining harder i can see alot of people leavin the nullsec belts for empire where the rats wont ** thier ships. And where they wont need a fit that costs more than thier ship does just to survive. Why not make nullsec grav sites akin to that of wormhole ones where once the rats are dead they dont come back, This would solve alot of the problems with a very easy fix. Or Change it so larger class rats dont target industrials, ie cruiser+bc+bs rats. If simply mining is going to require a highskilled dps and tank ship that can kill rats before they hurt the hulks or making the mining fleet warp out every single time rats spawn i dare say alot of miners i know wont be bothered with attempting to mine. Sorry if this is poorly worded or my grammar sucks becuase it indead does suck.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 160	Posted - 2012.10.27 16:40:00 - [2] - Quote Hulk's are not meant to tank multiple rats for any length of time. They are not meant to tank anything for any length of time. a) Did you test out Skiffs? Mackinaws? b) Did you actively SHOOT the rats try and draw aggro off of the Hulk? Actively letting the rats just shoot you all day while you mine = afk mining. 0.0 is supposed to be much more dangerous than high sec. So far I like the change (although I have not yet tested out the aggro mechanic for pulling aggro off yet. I will have to do that soon). I hope they also increase aggro on salvaging by a large margin, which will force ninja salvagers to either wait until the mission is over or tank up their salvaging ships more. ~Z
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.27 17:18:00 - [3] - Quote Zyella Stormborn wrote: Hulk's are not meant to tank multiple rats for any length of time. They are not meant to tank anything for any length of time. a) Did you test out Skiffs? Mackinaws? b) Did you actively SHOOT the rats try and draw aggro off of the Hulk? Actively letting the rats just shoot you all day while you mine = afk mining. 0.0 is supposed to be much more dangerous than high sec. So far I like the change (although I have not yet tested out the aggro mechanic for pulling aggro off yet. I will have to do that soon). I hope they also increase aggro on salvaging by a large margin, which will force ninja salvagers to either wait until the mission is over or tank up their salvaging ships more. ~Z I did shoot the rats a bit with some civy guns to try and draw agro as damaging them to bad would force them to flee then return 10 minutes later. I know skiffs can tank the spawns but them being 20.5% less yeild compared to the hulk doesnt sit well with me and im not using a mack since im not AFK mining. Tanking the rats doesnt always mean your afk mining it just means your enabling yourself to do what you set out, Being a miner i dont want to have to have a high skilled pve toon JUST to mine and requiring one is a bit ridiculas. And thats whats needed. The dangerous part of nullsec is the lack of rules for other players. And in pve content the reward goes greatly higher with the ammount of dangerous rats in the plexs and anoms ect but in mining the reward barely moves up the slope while the danger climbs drasticly. The measures needed to safely rat in nullsec once this patch comes out with the ai set to insta agro miners as it is goes way off of the mining path.
Dread Pirate Pete Tribal Core Defiant Legacy 94	Posted - 2012.10.27 19:07:00 - [4] - Quote Rats kill afk&bot miners = less being mined = lowsec minerals profitable again! Rejoice ye non-bots, fer gold and booty be in yer future!
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.28 00:17:00 - [5] - Quote Dread Pirate Pete wrote: Rats kill afk&bot miners = less being mined = lowsec minerals profitable again! Rejoice ye non-bots, fer gold and booty be in yer future! Lowsec minerals will never be more profitable but thanks for having no clue what this thread is about. Quote: Rejoice ye non-bots, fer gold and booty be in yer future! This is a thread about non bots mining.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 160	Posted - 2012.10.28 01:04:00 - [6] - Quote Zetaomega333 wrote: Zyella Stormborn wrote: Hulk's are not meant to tank multiple rats for any length of time. They are not meant to tank anything for any length of time. a) Did you test out Skiffs? Mackinaws? b) Did you actively SHOOT the rats try and draw aggro off of the Hulk? Actively letting the rats just shoot you all day while you mine = afk mining. 0.0 is supposed to be much more dangerous than high sec. So far I like the change (although I have not yet tested out the aggro mechanic for pulling aggro off yet. I will have to do that soon). I hope they also increase aggro on salvaging by a large margin, which will force ninja salvagers to either wait until the mission is over or tank up their salvaging ships more. ~Z I did shoot the rats a bit with some civy guns to try and draw agro as damaging them to bad would force them to flee then return 10 minutes later. I know skiffs can tank the spawns but them being 20.5% less yeild compared to the hulk doesnt sit well with me and im not using a mack since im not AFK mining. Tanking the rats doesnt always mean your afk mining it just means your enabling yourself to do what you set out, Being a miner i dont want to have to have a high skilled pve toon JUST to mine and requiring one is a bit ridiculas. And thats whats needed. The dangerous part of nullsec is the lack of rules for other players. And in pve content the reward goes greatly higher with the ammount of dangerous rats in the plexs and anoms ect but in mining the reward barely moves up the slope while the danger climbs drasticly. The measures needed to safely rat in nullsec once this patch comes out with the ai set to insta agro miners as it is goes way off of the mining path. Actually the dangerous part of nullsec is supposed to be all of nullsec. If you want low skilled, or to JUST mine, go high sec. If you want to go for those rare ABC roids, you put up with much nastier rats as well as players. Just shooting 0.0 rats with a civilian probably wont do much aggro generation at all... because its a civilian gun! I understand your view, but I'm afraid I just don't agree with it. When I mine in low sec (rare) or 0.0 (when I go for ABC's), I always bring either my alt for escort, or I go in a group with a guard, and I go in a Skiff or Mack (if I dont have a hauler around). When I want to mine anything other than the rares, I stay in high sec and just let my drones take care of the rats. Saying you want the highest yield miner, and wanting to be able to ignore or tank high end rats at the same time with no risk.... You may not get many people agreeing with you on this one. ~Z
Charlie Jacobson 38	Posted - 2012.10.28 02:08:00 - [7] - Quote I guess you're supposed to kill the rats now rather than attempting to annoy them with civilian guns.
Kenshi Hanshin BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now. 1	Posted - 2012.10.28 03:21:00 - [8] - Quote Charlie Jacobson wrote: I guess you're supposed to kill the rats now rather than attempting to annoy them with civilian guns. Even presently, when I have done escorting for people in null that mine. We kill the rats we don't tank them. Yea they will come back in 10 min. But is is 10 minutes of peace and quiet for the miners. As the others have said, null sec is not supposed to be low/minimal risk.
Alexila Quant Strategic Acquisitions Group 12	Posted - 2012.10.28 03:59:00 - [9] - Quote If you run with an escourt anyway just put him in a drake or a talos or something instead of a tank with civ guns and kill the rats instead of permatanking them. make a little extra isk and maybe get a spawn. I don't see a problem here...
Scozzy LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM HOLDINGS LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 0	Posted - 2012.10.28 07:30:00 - [10] - Quote Stumbled across the thread, thought I'd suggest a constructive solution to the OP's problem. OP, you mention the use of BS-class cap-stable ships to tank rats; and now, it won't work as rats change targets. If the BS is not the rat's constant primary anymore, why not switch it to a full ECM boat? A Scorpion with 6-8 jammers should take care of the rats quite nicely. Or a similar heavy-midslot boat running multiple tracking disruptors or remote sensor dampeners (I know rats have been said to lock at insane ranges, I never tested these two but you could still try their effectiveness). IMO, your worst-case scenario is having to use an ECM Scorpion. Maybe the rats won't all be perma-jammed, but even a T1-tanking Hulk or Covie should have no trouble tanking intermittent hits. Especially if that Scorpion is fit with medium repair drones. Hope this helps. ~ Scozz
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.28 07:57:00 - [11] - Quote I will def try the jamming method but it is always good to see opinions of people on mining when they themselves are not miners. Almost every post in this thread is from other people giving thier opinion of what they think about the mining situation come patch when they dont even do it. You may have "escorted" lol? some miners but obviously have no clue how it works in nullsec. I guess ccp is to busy to even look at this thread soooo....
Bouh Revetoile Barricade. 131	Posted - 2012.10.28 15:28:00 - [12] - Quote Zetaomega333 wrote: I will def try the jamming method but it is always good to see opinions of people on mining when they themselves are not miners. Almost every post in this thread is from other people giving thier opinion of what they think about the mining situation come patch when they dont even do it. You may have "escorted" lol? some miners but obviously have no clue how it works in nullsec. I guess ccp is to busy to even look at this thread soooo.... Hulk is supposed to be fleet ship. I'm glad CCP did a good job and make it actually bad at solo operation...
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 161	Posted - 2012.10.28 15:45:00 - [13] - Quote Bouh Revetoile wrote: Zetaomega333 wrote: I will def try the jamming method but it is always good to see opinions of people on mining when they themselves are not miners. Almost every post in this thread is from other people giving thier opinion of what they think about the mining situation come patch when they dont even do it. You may have "escorted" lol? some miners but obviously have no clue how it works in nullsec. I guess ccp is to busy to even look at this thread soooo.... Hulk is supposed to be fleet ship. I'm glad CCP did a good job and make it actually bad at solo operation... ?? <-- Mining in high / 0.0, and (rarely) in low since 2004. I mainly mine, mission, and more recently, pvp. In that order. Your complaint was met with almost universal disagreement, and instead of taking that thought to heart, you attempt to blanket discredit every one of the responers by saying they are not miners or have a clue about it? Bough Revetoile has it on the money.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.28 17:49:00 - [14] - Quote Zyella Stormborn wrote: Bouh Revetoile wrote: Zetaomega333 wrote: I will def try the jamming method but it is always good to see opinions of people on mining when they themselves are not miners. Almost every post in this thread is from other people giving thier opinion of what they think about the mining situation come patch when they dont even do it. You may have "escorted" lol? some miners but obviously have no clue how it works in nullsec. I guess ccp is to busy to even look at this thread soooo.... Hulk is supposed to be fleet ship. I'm glad CCP did a good job and make it actually bad at solo operation... ?? <-- Mining in high / 0.0, and (rarely) in low since 2004. I mainly mine, mission, and more recently, pvp. In that order. Your complaint was met with almost universal disagreement, and instead of taking that thought to heart, you attempt to blanket discredit every one of the responers by saying they are not miners or have a clue about it? Bough Revetoile has it on the money. Pretty much yes, it would be like me going into a thread about wh stuff and saying how i think whs should be run becuase oh iv gone through a few wormholes so that gives me exclusive insights to how they should be run.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 165	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:06:00 - [15] - Quote Zetaomega333 wrote: Zyella Stormborn wrote: Bouh Revetoile wrote: Zetaomega333 wrote: I will def try the jamming method but it is always good to see opinions of people on mining when they themselves are not miners. Almost every post in this thread is from other people giving thier opinion of what they think about the mining situation come patch when they dont even do it. You may have "escorted" lol? some miners but obviously have no clue how it works in nullsec. I guess ccp is to busy to even look at this thread soooo.... Hulk is supposed to be fleet ship. I'm glad CCP did a good job and make it actually bad at solo operation... ?? <-- Mining in high / 0.0, and (rarely) in low since 2004. I mainly mine, mission, and more recently, pvp. In that order. Your complaint was met with almost universal disagreement, and instead of taking that thought to heart, you attempt to blanket discredit every one of the responers by saying they are not miners or have a clue about it? Bough Revetoile has it on the money. Pretty much yes, it would be like me going into a thread about wh stuff and saying how i think whs should be run becuase oh iv gone through a few wormholes so that gives me exclusive insights to how they should be run. So are you saying you don't know much about 0.0 mining and want your proposed changes? Or are you trying for the (mostly mistaken) assumption that the others responding to you on this thread do not know about mining in 0.0? If its the latter, congratulations for getting me to bite into a troll thread and responding. Well done.
Dain Highwind State Protectorate Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:46:00 - [16] - Quote That is clearly a 9/10 in the whinemeter. Adapt or die.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.29 00:02:00 - [17] - Quote Zyella Stormborn wrote: Zetaomega333 wrote: Zyella Stormborn wrote: Bouh Revetoile wrote: Zetaomega333 wrote: I will def try the jamming method but it is always good to see opinions of people on mining when they themselves are not miners. Almost every post in this thread is from other people giving thier opinion of what they think about the mining situation come patch when they dont even do it. You may have "escorted" lol? some miners but obviously have no clue how it works in nullsec. I guess ccp is to busy to even look at this thread soooo.... Hulk is supposed to be fleet ship. I'm glad CCP did a good job and make it actually bad at solo operation... ?? <-- Mining in high / 0.0, and (rarely) in low since 2004. I mainly mine, mission, and more recently, pvp. In that order. Your complaint was met with almost universal disagreement, and instead of taking that thought to heart, you attempt to blanket discredit every one of the responers by saying they are not miners or have a clue about it? Bough Revetoile has it on the money. Pretty much yes, it would be like me going into a thread about wh stuff and saying how i think whs should be run becuase oh iv gone through a few wormholes so that gives me exclusive insights to how they should be run. So are you saying you don't know much about 0.0 mining and want your proposed changes? Or are you trying for the (mostly mistaken) assumption that the others responding to you on this thread do not know about mining in 0.0? If its the latter, congratulations for getting me to bite into a troll thread and responding. Well done. Always makes me lol nowadays when kids just label somthing troll without even knowing the meaning of it. I am making mostly accurate asumptions based on the responses of others nullsec mining experience. You can tell due to the way people do things. No hardnened nullsec miner kills the rats unless they absolutely have to in current game due to the giant pain in the **** of having to deal with thier respawns. You dont use an "escort" when mining in nullsec since everysingle miner iv known can handle himself, if you need an escort you shouldnt be mining due to risk of loosing your ship. And lol at hose who think im just going to stop mining becuase of these changes, ill get around it and still keep mining its just more of an inconvenance, youd think with the state of the mineral economy ccp would want to not make mining worse than it allready is.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 165	Posted - 2012.10.29 00:16:00 - [18] - Quote And you are missing the point of the responses. 0.0 is SUPPOSED to be the great dangerous part of space in the game. It's not. Other than blob warfare here and there, there is not much danger in SOV space at all, in particular if you are several jumps deep. The fact that you can no longer perma-tank 0.0 rats in a Hulk, making it more inconvenient for you will most likely galvanize CCP's decision more than it would ever make them think of rescinding it. Trying to call yourself 'hardened' while being upset that you can not simply ignore things in nullsec with one of the weakest tanked exhumers in game is not a viable argument. ...And as a side note, this 'hardened' nullsec miner, and many others that I know kill every rat that comes along with my escort alt, and salvages as well. Makes a ton more money and salvage on top of the minerals. Its really only the AFK mining nullbears that don't., which seems to be the angle you are taking.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.29 01:48:00 - [19] - Quote Quote: ...And as a side note, this 'hardened' nullsec miner, and many others that I know kill every rat that comes along with my escort alt, and salvages as well. Makes a ton more money and salvage on top of the minerals. Its really only the AFK mining nullbears that don't., which seems to be the angle you are taking. For someone thats a hardned nullsec miner you dont seem to own any nullsec to mine in. And i highly doubt killing under 6 rats every once in a while earns you a TON more money and considering the salvage is **** unless its t2 i doubt you make a TON on that as well.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 165	Posted - 2012.10.29 02:42:00 - [20] - Quote Zetaomega333 wrote: Quote: ...And as a side note, this 'hardened' nullsec miner, and many others that I know kill every rat that comes along with my escort alt, and salvages as well. Makes a ton more money and salvage on top of the minerals. Its really only the AFK mining nullbears that don't., which seems to be the angle you are taking. For someone thats a hardned nullsec miner you dont seem to own any nullsec to mine in. And i highly doubt killing under 6 rats every once in a while earns you a TON more money and considering the salvage is **** unless its t2 i doubt you make a TON on that as well. Wait, earlier it was every 10 minutes. Now its every once in a while? Play semantics on definitions for amounts somewhere else, stay on topic. Killing 5-7ish rats every 10ish min = bounty, loot, salvage, which comes out to quite a bit over the time you spend mining. But you may be missing that if you just attempt to afk mine out there in nullsec, which is the thing that seems to be what is really bothering you. Active mining, you can tank it long enough for drones to do the job if you have a couple of ships with drones out (if you are Hulking, I assume you have other ships out, maybe an orca. If not, you are in the wrong ship anyway). I don't 'own' any nullsec. But I do mine in it. Pros of being helpful at times, you get to play in some alliances back yard. The argument stands. Don't like the change? Use a ship that can tank. The exhumer tierecide was put out specifically for that reason. Plenty of choices. ;) But by all means, hold out and see if / what CCP has to say on it. I am guessing they don't even respond, but hey, you may get lucky. ~Z
Charlie Jacobson 41	Posted - 2012.10.29 03:03:00 - [21] - Quote Zetaomega333 wrote: Quote: ...And as a side note, this 'hardened' nullsec miner, and many others that I know kill every rat that comes along with my escort alt, and salvages as well. Makes a ton more money and salvage on top of the minerals. Its really only the AFK mining nullbears that don't., which seems to be the angle you are taking. For someone thats a hardned nullsec miner you dont seem to own any nullsec to mine in. And i highly doubt killing under 6 rats every once in a while earns you a TON more money and considering the salvage is **** unless its t2 i doubt you make a TON on that as well. If you already have a BS there to tank the rats, why not fit it to be able to kill them instead? The extra money you make from doing this might be negligible, but at least you can continue mining. I don't see how this change would be anything but a minor inconvenience unless you're AFK or botting.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.29 04:20:00 - [22] - Quote Quote: Wait, earlier it was every 10 minutes. Now its every once in a while? So once in a while cant mean 10 minutes? Quote: But you may be missing that if you just attempt to afk mine out there in nullsec, which is the thing that seems to be what is really bothering you. I think the only time iv ever afk mined is when iv gone to get a sandwich or taken a ** real fast, Im always here while mining never afk.. What im not happy about is whats needed to keep mining in nullsec. Mining drones are useless might as well not even train them as they will get alphad by any rats now. You need a fit that costs almost as much if not more than the damn hull to attempt to come close to surviving or having a fit that will acttually fit. Regardless if your killing the rats the hulks will still take damage meaning you need a high dps ship to take them before they can touch the mining ships or more than one. Forgot t1 mining barges as they last as long as the mining drones will. The amount of skills required to successfully mine in nullsec come the patch dwarf every other profession and the return isnt even comparable. You can mission with 1 account You can rat with one account you can anom with one account You can profession site with 1 account you cant mine nullsec with one account. I fail to see why making nullsec gravsites like Wormhole grav sites where the rats dont respawn would be all that horrible. Nullsec mining has needed a good looking into for some time now. That mining frigate is cool looking but useless to anyone with almost a weeks of training. Quote: (if you are Hulking, I assume you have other ships out, maybe an orca. If not, you are in the wrong ship anyway). Sitting an orca in the belt the whole time while mining is a great way to get one killed, you should never rely on it to kill rats. It should warp to grav site scoop cans and get out. Iv mined with hulks since before the tiericide and after ccps hulks are only for fleet use is the biggest load of bullshit lie iv ever seen and only the pubbie highsec bears eat that ** up.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 165	Posted - 2012.10.29 04:29:00 - [23] - Quote chuckle yeah, let me know how that works out for you. ;)
Grombutz Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 1	Posted - 2012.10.29 17:40:00 - [24] - Quote Well, it might be a baaaad Idea, but.. JUST KILL THE DAMN RATS = Win
Luc Chastot Moira. Villore Accords 44	Posted - 2012.10.29 18:37:00 - [25] - Quote Grombutz wrote: Well, it might be a baaaad Idea, but.. JUST KILL THE DAMN RATS = Win Imposibru! Who would have thought of that?! Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.
LuckyQuarter Lucky Galactic Expeditions 6	Posted - 2012.10.31 05:28:00 - [26] - Quote basic info: a) hulks are no longer solo ships, and are supposed to only be used in fleets with dedicated escort as they are meant to be the easiest exhumer to kill. b) Train drones skills to a high level and use them c) If you don't have an escort, use a skiff. I used a skiff mining solo in lowsec....a fleet of skiffs may be appropriate in nullsec, if you don't have an escort, would probably be the minimum mining config...skiffs are also more agile. d) If you are in an alliance, sounds like someone should be running mining ops better...
Aglais Liberation Army BricK sQuAD. 147	Posted - 2012.10.31 06:12:00 - [27] - Quote Definitely try I think the Skiff; it should tank brilliantly. It's built for the purpose of being a hard-shelled miner in potentially hostile situations, which this very much is. Also you can ask people to come in and kill rats, too. They'd appreciate any ISK gained from that, I imagine.
Dave stark Black Nova Corp. R O G U E 486	Posted - 2012.10.31 19:35:00 - [28] - Quote i thought the new AI changes made the rats target things with a similar sig radius to themselves. if you have a tanking BS then surely the BS rats should be targeting that, and a hulk can easily tank the leftover. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2012.10.31 23:19:00 - [29] - Quote Dave stark wrote: i thought the new AI changes made the rats target things with a similar sig radius to themselves. if you have a tanking BS then surely the BS rats should be targeting that, and a hulk can easily tank the leftover. Nope ALLLL the rats insta swap to exhumers, tested it several times. Even with a bs plinking at the bs rats.
Zyella Stormborn Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis 172	Posted - 2012.11.01 00:07:00 - [30] - Quote Zetaomega333 wrote: Dave stark wrote: i thought the new AI changes made the rats target things with a similar sig radius to themselves. if you have a tanking BS then surely the BS rats should be targeting that, and a hulk can easily tank the leftover. Nope ALLLL the rats insta swap to exhumers, tested it several times. Even with a bs plinking at the bs rats. Well if THAT's the case, it fits right in with several other problems that the AI is causing. If you are actually shooting BS weapons (and not a civilian gun) at the rats and they are still focusing the exhumer, there is definitely an issue and it should be addressed. Drone boat users on test seem to be having difficulty with the new AI chewing up drones rapidly as well.

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