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Frieghters and trading not good

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Ray Laria	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:28:00 - [1] when frieghters are introduced everyone that gets them will only use them for trading mostly.but this is a big problem cos with a cargo hold that size the markets are goin to crash a die so wots going to be done about this any ideas
TekRa	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:30:00 - [2] why will the markets crash and die? > With the lights out it's less dangerous.
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:33:00 - [3] They won't. If anything the ability to haul such massive loads should spread the markets out beyond the handful of junction systems. Cosmo The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:35:00 - [4] She means the NPC supply & demand trading thing, which arguably is meant for nubs to make a bit of isk on rather then freighters coming round to deplete all concurretn supply and demand in one trip. Don't worry too much, I don't think these are going to easy enough to buy and fly nor cheap enough to buy and fly to be used to mess around with NPC orders much. If you are not referring to NPC market trading, then what exactly do you mean ? By the time these are in you are going to be glad to move more since that highway might just be history. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rawne Karrde	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:40:00 - [5] As oveur has already pointed out int his matter, with the current system as you buy trade goods in x amount the prices do start to rise on the next alotment, and by the time you buy enough of that good to fill 100,000m3 the price of those goods will have risen beyond what you can sell them for on the other end of the trade route. These ships will help traders, as now the number of routes that are worth running will increase as you can now haul more of the good to make the same isk, what it lacks in margin you'll make out of shear volume on the lower profit per m3 runs.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:45:00 - [6] Im looking forward to freighters. I know 2 trade routes which arent worth doing in my itteron mk5 but will defenatly be worth it with a freighter --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.04.01 10:51:00 - [7] Outside empire most of the consumer goods runs have lets say 0% volumes. 100,000 transported around wont make much difference - might make the chart volumes go up though and make trading a bit more ACTIVE within the game world. I think freighters are about time as the trading aspect of the game in consumer and industrial goods was really not that much at the moment.
Viceroy	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:00:00 - [8] I pointed this out too, but it won't be a problem apparently. Supplies are never 100k m3 big in stations, the biggest supply of robotics i've seen was 27k and it was a crappy price. Also the prices change accordingly or something. This carebear stuff makes my head hurt. Bring me my launchers and torps please. -
Ray Laria	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:01:00 - [9] hmm i hope this won't crash the markets but it could be possilbe but also these things would be great for the market as well if u mine in say unel and u want to sell in yulai its no problem
Vivus Mors	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Ray Laria when frieghters are introduced everyone that gets them will only use them for trading mostly.but this is a big problem cos with a cargo hold that size the markets are goin to crash a die so wots going to be done about this any ideas no, they won't... remember, you could have a ship with 50,000,000 m3 of cargo space, but the market will only demand XYZ amount, and sure you could buy some crazy amount, but as has been mentioned, the more you buy the higher the prices climb until the price to buy surpasses any offers you could sell at and thus you would loose tons of money. The trade routes still have a threshold that can not be surpassed no matter how big your ship is, because your ship is irrelevant to the trade run, it's the supply price and demand price that determine if it can make a profit or a loss. also, no matter if every trader in the game has freighters, their trading will remain much the same or even stay static other than a ship change. the reason being that the routes that seasoned traders know make good money they stick with. again the demand price will fall and the sell price will rise at the same rate thus keeping any ship of any size from buying more than they can sell, just as any other trader of any size could or would ever do. and another thing, newer players won't be adversely effected by freighters anyway because it's two entirely different levels of business. just like a bantam miner isn't going to be put out by a mining barge or Apoc, there are always plenty of options within reach of the new players since the "big fish" are typically going to go after the "big targets" that only they would be capable of dealing with anyway. the biggest haul longest run and most currently difficult trade runs are what freighters will be tailored for, but the new player isn't capable of hauling any significant amount of most trade goods and the "small money" they are dealing in is rarely a big draw for someone in a totally maxxed out Iteron 5, or in the future, freighter with super duper capacity. the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, granted, itÆs always possible for a freighter pilot to go after penny-ante runs, but it would be much like an Apoc pilot doing nothing buy lv1 kill missions, sure you could do it, but it wouldnÆt be any great super money maker for such a powerful ship, and the same holds true with the freighters. With that colossal capacity, the ambition of the players is going to drive them to use that space to do trade routes that would have otherwise been more trouble than they were worth, and leaving the lesser runs for those trying to climb up to the freighters themselves. If anything, freighters are going to stimulate the economy and spur on activity in trade in the areas that have been somewhat ignored because of irritating or difficult routes. ------------------------------------------------- For the price of one can of Quafe cola a day, you can adopt an Ewok... Please... think of the Ewoks...
H0ot	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:09:00 - [11] "I pointed this out too, but it won't be a problem apparently. Supplies are never 100k m3 big in stations, the biggest supply of robotics i've seen was 27k and it was a crappy price." What he said. I have to fly to 2, sometimes 3 different stations to fill up my Mammoth with antibiotics. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Selena 001	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:11:00 - [12] Just out of Interest, how many people are planning on going out of their way to train to use one of these? Then how many people are planning on spending millions, if not billions to get one (billions if the BPO's or BPC's are relaesed by the "crappy lottery" system). Yea, if everyone is rich, and has nothing better to train everone will train for these, but they arent all rich, and dont have bags of time free, so I dont see them becoming much of a common sight. (Skill to use tech II indy = 30 mill.. ship costs... er... well... 90-100mill?... just imagine the prices on the skill of the freighters alone). Only time will tell I guess ___________ I only have 5 months left of 'knowing at all'... I had better put it to good use
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:13:00 - [13] i think CCP neglect the market in favour of other things for one simple reason Not many players at all bother with trade - CCP develop things ie new and other changes and content where most of the activity focuses ie empire changes, content, Ammo changes and EW (bigger factors to the biggest % of the eve player group) probably 1% bother trading on a regular basis - therefore increasing volumes and the amount of trades - might just be enough to encourage CCP to come and make some changes, extensions, enhancements, new features and new cargo types etc. Remember where most player tiem is spent is what is focused on to keep players interested. That simple so until trade becomes more common place it might remain a neglected or slower developed feature. That said the gate chagnes that have been mooted might also help to a large degree. Personally with my missions i find that filling my cargo hold with tradeable cargo is usually fairly doable.
SLIM	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Ray Laria when frieghters are introduced everyone that gets them will only use them for trading mostly.but this is a big problem cos with a cargo hold that size the markets are goin to crash a die so wots going to be done about this any ideas I have to second TekRa here... Why? In what way will moving more goods crash the markets? Makes no sense to me, maybe someone can enlighten this poor fool? ---------------------------
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:29:00 - [15] Ollobrains, CCP does not neglect the market, it believes in having the market player driven to the maximum possible extent. Some time ago they contemplated removing all NPC orders that can generate a trader profit for the simple reason that NPC good trading does nothing for this game. It does not promote interaction or group play, which CCP seems to love alot. After that being discussed somewhat I can only guess that CCP decided to leave NPC good trading as a possibility in the game since it's one of the easiest ways for new players to make isk. It's a pity that once again we see old and established players using NPC demand and supply that imo should only be open to new players as an income source. So that's why the possibilities are very limited. Chances are that they are going to be limited even more sooner then opened up a bit. And as far as influencing some kind of output data by a weekly trading spree goes Ollobrains, it's a nice plan but it's not going to change anything. CCP won't respond to that by increasing the amount of npc orders around. IF (and that's an IF the size of the average Amarr ego), they are going to wonder what causes you to do all that trading, they are going to assume you are somewhow finding it all more profitable then they would have expected and actually think again about eliminating the whole thing alltogether since it's kind of a misfit in their MMO that relies totally (or at least partially) on player interaction in all other professions, just not this one. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Selena 001 Just out of Interest, how many people are planning on going out of their way to train to use one of these? Then how many people are planning on spending millions, if not billions to get one (billions if the BPO's or BPC's are relaesed by the "crappy lottery" system). Yea, if everyone is rich, and has nothing better to train everone will train for these, but they arent all rich, and dont have bags of time free, so I dont see them becoming much of a common sight. (Skill to use tech II indy = 30 mill.. ship costs... er... well... 90-100mill?... just imagine the prices on the skill of the freighters alone). Only time will tell I guess Bearing in mind the fact that they're T1 ships, they should be quite readily available and easy to train for. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Gorath Vaan	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:33:00 - [17] CCP want Eve market to be player driven AND they want commodities to move around. The freighters are not going to move the smaller (player placed) commodities any more than they move now. Who's gonna travel at ~65 m/s to pick up 800 whatever and haul it 6 jumps without instas to all gates and stations? Point is that player placed commodites (often cheaper > higher profits) never reach the market in any quantity. Only the low profit npc market items will be in adequate quantities to fill a Freighter. Even now it's often hard to fill a fully expanded Bestower and the margins on these npc trades seem strictly controlled. It is my belief that the market is tailored (programmed) to make it equally profitable to mining and hunting to avoid Eve becoming a Trade Only game.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 01/04/2005 11:37:37 Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 01/04/2005 11:36:23 Originally by: Selena 001 Just out of Interest, how many people are planning on going out of their way to train to use one of these? Then how many people are planning on spending millions, if not billions to get one (billions if the BPO's or BPC's are relaesed by the "crappy lottery" system). Yea, if everyone is rich, and has nothing better to train everone will train for these, but they arent all rich, and dont have bags of time free, so I dont see them becoming much of a common sight. (Skill to use tech II indy = 30 mill.. ship costs... er... well... 90-100mill?... just imagine the prices on the skill of the freighters alone). Only time will tell I guess Im getting one depending on the price (Not paying more then 100 mill for an oversized indy) and depending on how jump drives will work. Though im somewhat ashamed to be flying the gallente version. All the other races get a bad ass looking mofo and ours just looks odd... Edit: What about trade routes in 0.0, surely were not invading the n00bie turf there? --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:47:00 - [19] Oh, trade r4outes in low sec and 0.0 are just fine. You'll need to interact there at least at some level _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:49:00 - [20] Actually jumpdrives would allow me to go crazy and avoid gates all together --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Actually jumpdrives would allow me to go crazy and avoid gates all together There'll be a drawback as well, like usual. Like long recharging time on one, leaving a trail, needing a beacon in target system, being tagged, whatever... _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:52:00 - [22] Originally by: SLIM I have to second TekRa here... Why? In what way will moving more goods crash the markets? Makes no sense to me, maybe someone can enlighten this poor fool? It won't cause the markets to crash. However, we may see a reduction in prices of certain stuff. I'm not sure on the NPC orders side of things, but I know the player controlled market (which is most of it) will probably see lower prices from this. Just think about the price of, say, Tritanium. Compare the prices people are paying for trit in a "core" system with those being paid further out. Trit is hardly difficult to aquire, so why is there such a discrepancy? The simple reason is the difficulty in moving the darn stuff. Most of that extra price isn't paying for the trit, it's paying for the insane amount of time it takes to haul any industrially-significant quantity of trit from a system that hasn't been mined to pebbles. With the freighters, importing large quantities of trit to the core systems becomes feasible, so trit prices in the core systems will drop closer to average, resulting in lower producer costs, which should feed through to lower module/ship costs. It also means exporting from core systems to outlying areas becomes far more feasible, as does producing in outlying regions, and importing to the core market. This isn't done at the moment, as even with iteron V's, you can only really shift quantities suitable for personal or corp use, if that. Because of that, it's not really cheaper to get a trader to haul a job-lot out to a region to sell than for individuals to go to the core systems on a shopping spree. With the new freighters, you can shift way more than anyone would need for personal use, and enough to make thin mark-ups for non-core supplies actually worth doing. So, I think it'll have the unexpected effect of promoting both core and outlying markets, help improve supply in undersupplied areas, and even out price discrepancies. With the ability to shift this much stuff, the core systems should become more like warehouses, or shipping depots than the supermarkets they are right now.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.04.01 11:53:00 - [23] new world order. These ships arent quite in yet. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Ander Koval	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:00:00 - [24] The poster might have a point. I don't think the market works in discreet units. i.e.: You could buy all 50K units of 'trade item' at 5 isk/unit, instead of 25K at 5 isk/unit then another 25K at the higher price of 7 isk/unit (when the price changes). Likewise you could sell all 50K units of 'trade item' for 7 isk/unit, instead of 25K at 7 isk/unit then another 25K at the lower price of 5 isk/unit. (Games like Port Royale and Patrician use a sliding scale to give an average price)
El Yatta	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:00:00 - [25] Except they wont be using jumpdrives. Read the first devblog on the four "BFS". Only three were actually listed as BFS that needed jump drives. Freighters were NOT one of them. ---:::---
Matthew	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Rod Blaine new world order. These ships arent quite in yet. Yeah, but new world order wants more regional markets too, right? Which freighters will encourage by allowing the import/export of significant quantities, which helps to beat the main problem of forcing more regionalised markets - undersupply. Not all regions will have sufficient builders for everything, no-matter how hard you try and encourage it. Without something like freighters, trade hubs etc, you'll end up with regions where you just can't get some stuff. Which would suck.
Shiipo	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:03:00 - [27] I fail to see how they wouldn't be able to change the trading as we know it. If you get one you will be able to do several trade routes at the same time, should be a nice advantage.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:09:00 - [28] I meant that hauling minerals in from what is now 6 jumps for the 0.05 isk margin per item is not worth it as you say. 30K for 10 jumps is not deemed viable How much will 300K for 20 jumps that take alot longer change ? expect these to be sloooow, and expect highways to go when these enter. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Ray Laria	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:12:00 - [29] the thing is with the trade goods is that u can't do anythin with them so if ccp made it possible to use them then there might be more people wanting to buy them
SLIM	Posted - 2005.04.01 12:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Matthew It won't cause the markets to crash. However, we may see a reduction in prices of certain stuff. I'm not sure on the NPC orders side of things, but I know the player controlled market (which is most of it) will probably see lower prices from this. Yes, my feeling as well. I had put some sarcasm into my post, but I guess I hid it too well. My point was, "OH NOES IT WILL CRASH TEH MARKET" is just chicken little mentality with not even a viable theory to back it up. I'm seeing tech II frig suppliers (or resellers) liking this one, could probably move a fair few of them in one go out to 0.0, where they're often used. ---------------------------

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