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Sulis Quintus
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Posted - 2005.04.03 02:05:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Noriath
The problem with the balance is not that missiles are so different, but that every other race uses missiles as a secondary weapon...
Missiles should be powerful, but only as a powerful secondary weapon, the problem is created by ships that use missiles as their primary weapon!
This is so right on so many levels.
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Alithieniel Cascade
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Posted - 2005.04.03 02:08:00 -
[32]
Q_Q
cry some more pls.
Only problem with raven/scorp is that they sort frigates easily.
Any half-brained gunboat pilot can sort raven. And stop crying about how it suposed to be and how missiles shouldnt be main weapon. You think its not suposed to be like that, i for one think it works as intended :P
Altho it kind off sad that i cant take my shiny Raven on a lag fest called fleet battle :x but oh well.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 02:29:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 02:37:57
It doesn't work how it is intended at all. Afterall, missiles were gradually changed to be more like guns because of whiny Caldari...
Now when anyone says that the problem with missiles is essentially nothing more then the fact that they can't be better then guns as long as some ships use them instead of guns people complain about that...
Missiles should be better then guns. But then there can't be any ships that exclusively use missiles!
Of course Caldari players refuse to see that. But hey, suprise, Caldari are not the rule when it comes to missiles but the exception. Every other race in the game that has Ships with a bunch of guns and a missile launcher get screwed if missiles are weak, because then having a single launcher on a ship that otherwise uses guns becomes a joke.
If missiles are powerful enough to be worthwhile fielding as a secondary weapon system Caldari are overpowered, because their ships don't even have guns...
It sucks and anyone who thinks that's how it's supposed to be has clearly not bothered to look at the fact that most ships in the game don't have 6 launchers, but 1 or 2.
This awful Caldari crap about how missiles are their main weapon and should replace guns on their ships ruins launchers for everyone else if they are ever going to be balanced!
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Clarence Bodicker
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Posted - 2005.04.03 02:38:00 -
[34]
I'd just like to say that I have ~2 mil skill points and fly a mean Raven. Taking torpedoes to 4 and MLO to 5 yields about 500k missile skill points so kindly stop whining that Caldari have to train guns and missles.
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Criminal Connections Rank(3) SP: 76549/768000
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 02:47:00 -
[35]
Thanks for proving the point about Caldari ships being piloted by total n00bs without any skills. 2 million is nothing! At 2 million you would not even be considered a competent cruiser pilot if you would train ships in any other race... 
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.04.03 04:32:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Noriath
Thanks for proving the point about Caldari ships being piloted by total n00bs without any skills. 2 million is nothing! At 2 million you would not even be considered a competent cruiser pilot if you would train ships in any other race...
If you wanted to sound like a fool, you succeeded.
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.03 04:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Noriath
Thanks for proving the point about Caldari ships being piloted by total n00bs without any skills. 2 million is nothing! At 2 million you would not even be considered a competent cruiser pilot if you would train ships in any other race...
You had my ear until you said this. wtf is this? This isn't the art of zen, "you my son have 9 mill SP, you may now trade in your noob ship for a frigate (just a small one mind...".
Perhaps its a GAME and people want to play with the toys in the game before it goes off the fricking market in 2020.
For the record, I fly minmatar and minmatar only and torps annoy me too cos my guns cant hit sweet blow all on a good day.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 05:11:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 05:27:41
Look, I'm not someone to bash people for being new to the game, but I have more then 5 million Skillpoints in various combat skills as a Gallante Pilot and I can't even dream about soloing Level 4 missions or effectively PvPing yet...
Please don't get me wrong on this, I really don't care how many skillpoints people have, but if their ships are five times better then anything I can field with a third of the skillpoints I'm not exactly inclined to give them some good advice because I played longer then them...
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.04.03 05:27:00 -
[39]
To put in simpler terms:
Missiles are not like guns, when you train torps and raven, you deal a certain amount of damage, i.e. get torps to lvl 5 and caldari BS to lvl 4. Thats about it. Training lvl 5 BS for a noob isnt an option.
But what about a gunboat? You trained the same skills for the BS and the large guns, but you still have a load of skills to munch on, i.e. surgical strike, weapon specialization etc.
See where im going with this?
If you're in a gunship and you know what race BS you're going for - you have space to evolve. Raven pilot doesnt.
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.04.03 05:41:00 -
[40]
I think the above poster is spot on. On a ship that has 2 launchers, missles need to be strong. Where they have 6 launchers, they tend to be overpowered. As it stands Ravens are either A)Useless in Fleets or long range battles or B)Stupidly overpowered vs smaller targets and do more damage than the close range specialist BS. Lets make it more equitable.
So let's look at what happens when you make a Caldari ship a turret user. Lets look at the Ferox. No one can deny its a GREAT little ship, but it's not really overpowered. Let's adjust the Raven so it's more like the Ferox. Give it Rail bonuses instead of missles. Missle slots shou0dl be reduced to 2 launchers like the Amarr and Gallente tier 2 BS. The tempest being a jack-of-all-trades keeps the flexibilty of being able to use more. Tweak cpu/grid a bit so you can fit rails with the same difficutly as other ships.
Voila. Insta damage for fleet. Ravens require the same skills to use as turret users. Raven pilots have all the skills that turret users get to train. Missles can remain powerful and viable now that no BS can spam 6 launchers and maintain a tank at the same time.
This seems like it would be the easiest thing for developers to fix the missle/Raven problem. No one thinks a megathron with 2 cruise or siege launchers is a problem. Just when you fit 6 of em on a ship does it become a balance issue. By making small database adjustments to the Raven (and possibly Scorp) you can avoid making a huge missle overhaul necessary.
Nyxus
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 05:54:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 05:57:47
@ Sadist:
If Cladari are so disadvantaged by the fact that they can't learn more skills for their missiles we just come right back to my original point about missiles not being meant as primary weapons don't we?
I mean, if it is such a big disadvantage that they can't learn all the nice skills for guns maybe they would be better off if their ships had guns and missiles?
@ Nyxus
Glad to see someone understands what I'm saying...
There simply should not be any ships with more then 2 launcher Hardpoints, then we could make missiles truely different from guns, better then they are right now even - and all without unbalancing the game!
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.04.03 06:09:00 -
[42]
I'm really starting to agree that missiles shouldnt be the primary caldari weapon anymore. It would save ALOT of balance woes.
Caldari ships could just go back to being hybrid junkies with a decent amount of launchers for secondary, minmatar with good as well, amarr and gallente with less missiles than them.
Problem is, people who have no turret skills and all missile skills.
However, missiles require almost no skillpoints compared to gunnery anyway so its not that big of a problem, just about everyone has missiles trained up really good anyway.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 06:18:00 -
[43]
Well, a change like this would not hit overnight, so people would have plenty of time to get the skills...
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Kyle Caldrel
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Posted - 2005.04.03 07:40:00 -
[44]
Ravens are ballanced... you cant mine in a raven. 
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.04.03 08:26:00 -
[45]
raven---> rail platform
missile ballance in 1h.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 08:46:00 -
[46]
And: Typhoon 6 turret hardpoints...
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Foomanshoe
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Posted - 2005.04.03 08:48:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 02/04/2005 23:48:12
The bottom line is: Caldari don't have to train nearly as many skills as everyone else, so they shouldn't be nearly as effective at doing anything, however, right now have an easier time with their missiles because they basicly can hit anything for full damage.
I think what they should get out of their battleships is what their skills are worth... and that's not much.
Like a Gallente scum knows what playing a caldari is all about right? give me a break.
If you want to whine about Caldari not having to train as many skills, its only cause CCP havent given the skills they promised in the last missile change. We still dont have our velocity boost, flight time boost, etc. etc. skills that were supposed to come in when they removed all the difff missile type bonuses and switched them all to damage. Gunnery get 2 range bonus skills, tracking bonus, rof bonus, and a damage bonus that all go across the boards for all turrets, and missiles only get rof and damage bonus, plus we have to train all the gunnery skills for the few gunnery ships like the moa and harpy. If anything thats MORE skills then the other races, with crappier bonuses.
Not to mention, that anyone can jump into a BS with only 2 mil skill points, but a good pilot a BS doesnt make. Some moron in a Apoc without Large turrets may beable to fly the apoc but aint going to be winning many bs on bs fights (and yes, i have seen it happen). You dont see people making this arguement for miners flying apocs do you? so why you making if for people flying ravens.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 09:08:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 09:27:21
The problem is not that CCP doesn't give Caldari the skills they want, it's that missiles are not supposed to be Caldari guns.
Maybe you haven't noticed it, but every other race uses missiles too!!
Do you think it would be fair if an Apoc pilot would have to spend just as much time to train the skills for his two launchers that he spent for his six lasers?
The entire problem with missiles only exists because Caldari think that missiles are their racial weapon when in fact missiles should work for Caldari like they work for everyone else in the game:
1 or 2 launchers on a ship that has guns for its main armaments.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.04.03 09:35:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 09:27:21
The problem is not that CCP doesn't give Caldari the skills they want, it's that missiles are not supposed to be Caldari guns.
Maybe you haven't noticed it, but every other race uses missiles too!!
Do you think it would be fair if an Apoc pilot would have to spend just as much time to train the skills for his two launchers that he spent for his six lasers?
The entire problem with missiles only exists because Caldari think that missiles are their racial weapon when in fact missiles should work for Caldari like they work for everyone else in the game:
1 or 2 launchers on a ship that has guns for its main armaments.
Hate to break it to you, but the reverse is true. And it'd be a lot less interesting game were Caldari to be made Gallente/Minnie copy-cats.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.04.03 10:27:00 -
[50]
Whether missiles were meant to be the Caldari's racial weapon or not is neither here nor there anymore. You CAN'T make the Raven a rail boat. Why? Well, I thought I made it clear in my last post, but that's like changing the Apocs/Geddons weapons because they're too powerful. What about all the Amarrians with laser skills? Yeah, you just screwed them out of their SP.
You CAN'T remove a races weapon, regardless of what it was ever supposed to be. Missiles need to be overhauled, sure, and guess what? *gasp* Yeah, that's exactly what's happening, patch after next (or there abouts).
You can argue all you want that Caldari ships aren't supposed to be missile ships, but in the end it will never change. Screwing someone out of their SP every time a module is imbalanced is stupid.
Although personally I don't see why ships get racial weapons bonuses at all. It just makes combat more stale and predictable. See an Apoc? Yeah, it's got lasers. How fun.
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Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun! |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 10:35:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 10:41:08
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 10:37:23
If Caldari are supposed to be pure missile ships how do you explain all the launcher hardpoints on all the ships of every other race? Or the fact that most Caldari ships acctually have more turret hardpoints then missile ones...
How do you explain the fact that there are two differnt types of hardpoints in the first place if one of them is a racial weapon and the other isn't?
Caldari have just been hyped to death as pure missile users. In fact they only have 2 ships in their entire lineup of vessels that don't have any turret hardpoints.
Or will you argue with me that Moas and Merlins are not Caldari ships because they have guns? What about the Eagle?
Here is what I think: Make the Raven like a big Moa, then we can finally put the stupid missile debate to rest.
And Caldari pilots who can't fly that thing have created their own problem because they took the shortcut. Maybe if they would have taken the time to learn how to fly a Moa (their own prime combat cruiser) they would know something about how to fire a railgun.
If some caldari battleship jockeys can't handle ships that use guns I can only say... Wake up and smell the waffles, that's what every other pilot in the galaxy has to put up with, so take it like a man...
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.04.03 10:39:00 -
[52]
yea, apoc has lasers. I put 2x th hardener & 1x em hardener and annoy his big oversized ass with af, cruiser...
yea see raven: what dmg will he do? i cannot annoy him with small ship, he outdmges other bs-s at close range etc. And all this with investment of 400k in missile launcher ops & 362k in caldari bs.
Look how many ppl has cruise missiles trained to lvl5? Probably same number of ppl that have drone interfacing lvl5. That number is probably around 0. If they trained torps to lvl5, well screw it, bad investment of rank 4 skill. But caldari bs would have its bonuses to guns. They screwed projectiles like 8 months ago, and what happened. It was rank 5 skill, not to mention that it needs far more sp in gunnery.
Raven -> rail platform is good solution. You will hit in fleets, you will suck at close range, as caldari is supposed to, you will be weak vs. small ships, like other bs-s are... no more missile fligh time whining etc.
Now flame that...
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 10:43:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/04/2005 10:44:59
Before anyone flames that I'll just squeeze in a fast: You're right.
Also then no Cladari would ever have to complain that evil CCP does not give them enough skills for their weapons... 
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.04.03 11:16:00 -
[54]
I love people posting such topics after being wtfpwned by some Raven in close range at gate
"we need to remove missles and make Raven useless rail gun Mega 2" "no we need to nerf em to hell so they can fire only to 1km" "no no no we need to make missles as second weapon since we dont want our precious indys and shiny turret BSs wtfpwned in close range"
ffs, dont like it? Kill before Killed! ffs, dont like it? Use WCS. still dont like it? use instas or fit lows with all nanos and enjoy t3h flight.
-=-
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.04.03 11:24:00 -
[55]
Edited by: LUKEC on 03/04/2005 11:31:33
2005.03.29 16:32:00
Victim: Hunter GlobaGateways
Corporation: Shattered Star Confederation
Destroyed Type: Raven
Solar System: Aunenen
System Security Level: 0.4
Involved parties:
Name: LUKEC (laid the final blow)
Security Status: -2.1
Corporation: Boli Me Kurc
Ship Type: Megathron
Weapon Type: **** <--- blasters, but let it be censored.
Ask him where did that happen(he is in your alliance(FA), and thanx for bpcs). But he didn't really have skills to fly any bs, and 2months old char that i see in bs will simply die, if system is low sec. (Especially n00bs in ravens, these are my favourite)
Still ravens need serious 'ballance'.
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Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.03 11:55:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
You're wrong.
Caldari - Rails
Gallente - Blasters
Amarr - Lasers
Minmatar - Projectiles
Gallente were never supposed to use rails, except CCP made rails and blasters the same category so all the chickens who didnt dare get in close would still have an option.
 So you say gallente weren't suppose to use rail. But CCP made gallente Hybrid users & railguns and blasters are hybrids. So ? weren't autcannon's caldari ? i mean.. I don't understand people to class gallente as close range only. Kinda not smart and boring gameplay if you that every gall ship is close range + alot more other reasons why ccp made gall hybrid users ( yes railgun and blaster ) and thank you CCP!
Movies
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DEVILSENIGMA
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Posted - 2005.04.03 12:02:00 -
[57]
Always carry a Nos or two. Use them against the Raven and he is toast also u can tank longer than him as well.
~
[My Blog] | [Roving Guns Kill List] |
Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.04.03 12:20:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Eyeshadow on 03/04/2005 12:20:49
its simple. Make the raven the same as the ferox. 8 highs but 5 turret and 5 launcher slots, change ROF bonus to a 10% large hybrid range and change the missile speed to sommat useful, maybe the moa bonus 5% to shield boosters? Then it has the versatility of being used as a rail platform or a missile platform or a bit of both
Then change missiles a little bit, up standards to 2-3k a sec, hvys to 2k a sec and cruise and torps can stay as they are. Bingo, missile balance + raven balance
Forums: Sharks - MC |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.04.03 12:22:00 -
[59]
Except missiles will still hit frigates.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Boffin
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Posted - 2005.04.03 12:32:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Boffin on 03/04/2005 12:33:23
Originally by: Noriath
Thanks for proving the point about Caldari ships being piloted by total n00bs without any skills. 2 million is nothing! At 2 million you would not even be considered a competent cruiser pilot if you would train ships in any other race...
So train to fly a Raven aswell, shouldn't take you long !!.
You expect the game to adapt in order to balance your weakness, why not adapt your weaknesses to the game ?
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