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Reasons why people wont PvP and why its a waste of time for most people

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Karn Dulake Sad Flutes 920	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:22:00 - [1] - Quote Disclaimers 1. When you undock you can be attacked and nobody is exempt from this statement. When people say this is a PvP orientated game this is what they mean 2. Spaceship PvP is the engine that drives this game and without it Eve would not function as almost all other professions are based on supplying it. These are the main reasons that many people will not pew pew and its based around game mechanics and human nature 1. PvP has no purpose in this game. It has no quantative value beyond killing other people. Unless you are in a fixed territory in lowsec or nullsec then you have nothing to defend. And even then you can just move off to somewhere new. This is one of the biggest problems with PvP in EVE. 2. PvP is Predatory. This covers a huge amount of ground but its also a game mechanic problem. i) People almost never fight unless they have the advantage. A PvPer always wants an overwhelming win before they will attempt a kill. This is overly true when looking for targets. You can fit a ship for PvE or PvP and they do not overlap. A PvP ship will almost always beat a PvE ship. This means that most of the time it is the PvPers choice to select their targets and ignore those they cannot win. ii) A corp/Alliance that wardecs another chooses a weaker corp/alliance. Even the fabled Rooks and Kings are famously risk adverse. It may look as though they are engaging huge blobs but they have complete knowledge of game mechanics and will know before hand how much DPS they can absorb and if the blob cannot produce that they will engage. iii) Its time consuming. I have never been on a roam that did not take several hours to form up and then several more hours to find a single target that was almost always a PvE ship. Most people donGÇÖt have the time to do this. (iv) Its expensive. There are plenty of people who can tell you to get into frigates and go out and fight but in the majority of cases you will be massacred by bigger and more expensive ships. So you need larger ships to compete. Everyone has their story of a frigate fleet that killed a Battleship fleet but these are very much the exception than the rule. (V) Learning the mechanics of PvP. You learn in the majority of cases by dying and when people die over and over again they soon see it as a waste of time. There are some great PvP corps but try getting into one. Rooks and Kings (my apologies for using them again) have a public channel for people to come in and hero worship them in the chance of getting in. 3. Killboards are a terrible construct. They encourage blobbing and predatory PvP. Nothing worse than two evenly match fleets not fighting or a corp unwilling to undock as it might negatively affect their killboard stats. This is made worse by PvP corps/alliances that base there decisions on whether to accept someone based on their killboard. And the killboard is a fallacy. 100% kills 0% losses. But have 50 other people on the kill with them. Or even more insidious someone who has 100% kills and 0 % losses and is a solo killer but every kill is a PvE fit ship. 4. Human nature. There a many many people who do not want to predatory PvP as they donGÇÖt want to ruin someoneGÇÖs day. Ganking a PvE fit tengu who is ratting does nothing for either party apart from ruin their day. They would not mind fighting another PvP corp if they could overcome all the points above. 5. Weekend lowsec roamers. There are plenty of people trying to break into PvP by running weekend lowsec roams. This can be a massive waste of time for them as not only do they risk hours of nothing or massive blob but they can be farmed as I have done it myself. You fit a ship and wait for them to come through. They all destroy you and then you have kill rights on them for a month which you collect when they are missioning with their shiny deadspace battleship. Quickly they realise that lowsec is a waste of time or they have to spend a month not raising any isk. 6. Being in a corp with PvP types. I have met every kind of player you could image in this game and there are some I would cross the road to avoid and they are mainly Predatory PvP players. Predatory and non predatory types. 1. Angry loner- a four year old player who killed a 3 month old and his POD. When I mentioned that his pod was most of his wealth he shouted GÇ£GoodGÇ¥ through gritted teeth. These are rare thankfully. 2. Loudmouths who are constantly bleating about their own superiority and are constantly abusive to others. There are more of these. Normal People 1. Lowsec Pirates- people who have chosen to roleplay pirates and live exclusively of their ill gotten gains. They are normally decent people who live on gates chatting on vent and killing cargo ships/PvE ships and fighting roamers or other pirates. 2. Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. Im a big fan of the Orphanage as they fit this mold. They just want targets to shoot and are not overly predatory. Ive seen them destroyed before in battles but they donGÇÖt care as they just enjoy fighting. As you can see itGÇÖs a problem because to find decent people who are pvpers you have to live that life or have a second account that raises isk for PvP. Summary/TLDR. PvP serves no purpose in this game beyond its own end and mostly its just predatory PvP that has already been decided long before the first shot. Its expensive and time consuming and is not something that people need to do to enjoy this game. Until this changes people will not engage in this aspect of the game. TLDR do something else. Your valuable comments please I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
EI Digin Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 296	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:23:00 - [2] - Quote That's just like, your opinion man
Karn Dulake Sad Flutes 920	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:23:00 - [3] - Quote EI Digin wrote: That's just like, your opinion man Thanks for the meme I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
BoBoZoBo MGroup9 Quantum Cafe 108	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:26:00 - [4] - Quote You forgot market based PVP, espionage based PVP. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite
Karn Dulake Sad Flutes 921	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:28:00 - [5] - Quote BoBoZoBo wrote: You forgot market based PVP, espionage based PVP. This again. Its a thread about blowing up other peoples ships I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Christopher AET Segmentum Solar Intrepid Crossing 186	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:29:00 - [6] - Quote TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
Dark Assassin15 Failed Diplomacy 86	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:30:00 - [7] - Quote A couple of interesting points. some of which i can agree too. i do think change needs to be made to balance out the whole risk vs reward thing. winning an engagement should be more rewarding than some numbers to type into a killboard. [img]http://www.invokemethod.com/repo/failedsig.png[/img]
Cannibal Kane Praetorian Cannibals 648	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:31:00 - [8] - Quote So where do people like me fit in then? Since it seems you like to generalize. I am your so called loner but I'm not an angry person not have I been playing for 4 years. I just like the pretty lights when things go boom. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. The Crazy Space Poor South African. *Hair done by LGÇÖOr+¬al, because I'm worth it.
Karn Dulake Sad Flutes 921	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:32:00 - [9] - Quote Christopher AET wrote: TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it. No the problem is that im extremely good at PvP (this is my pve alt) but its mainly predatory PvP against people who dont want it. Look at the Human nature section of the post I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Karn Dulake Sad Flutes 921	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:33:00 - [10] - Quote Cannibal Kane wrote: So where do people like me fit in then? I am your so called loner but I'm not an angry person not have I been playing for 4 years. I just like the pretty lights when things go boom. lols thinks the entire thread was written about him. There are types of players i cant categorise them all. I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 1827	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:33:00 - [11] - Quote I read every word of the OP and found it an interesting take on the mindset of the EVE PVP player. I also look forward to the **** storm this thread will be. Mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks
Geligdio Khan JD Mining Industry 20	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:38:00 - [12] - Quote Good thread, to add a couple of things. 1) Nothing has any point in this game, without RMT it's all just sand in the box so that argument could be applied to anything. 2) The poverty of PVP exists because such a large proportion of the players live in High Sec, that's why roams are often devoid of targets, all the juicy industrials you want to shoot are merrily mining and trading in High Sec never to leave. Of course new players should be protected from the harsh realities of the game but a High Sec adjustment would make PVP much more enjoyable and help the industrialists and make the game much more of an integrated, dynamic environment. This, IMO, is the cause of pretty much all your points. Thanks
Cannibal Kane Praetorian Cannibals 648	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:39:00 - [13] - Quote Karn Dulake wrote: Cannibal Kane wrote: So where do people like me fit in then? I am your so called loner but I'm not an angry person not have I been playing for 4 years. I just like the pretty lights when things go boom. lols thinks the entire thread was written about him. There are types of players i cant categorise them all. No... You just managed to sweep every single player that shoots at people into your own little generalizations without considering why they do what they do in the first place. Could it be for profit, vengeance, isk, bounty, or many other. Well you don't know. I might as well say you typed that story up from frustration about loosing a ship to the people you think are there only spoil your day while you were missioning. I am Generalizing there, it may not be true... but it happens to many so I might as well put into that catagory as well. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. The Crazy Space Poor South African. *Hair done by LGÇÖOr+¬al, because I'm worth it.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 342	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:40:00 - [14] - Quote Talk about over-thinking it. If someone needs a reason to pvp in a game that boith advertises and exists as a pvp-centric sandbox, there's simply a problem with that "someone". I have yet to see someone in League of Legends refuse to leave the spawn point for fear of pvp lol. Of course dying in LoL is nothing like dying in EVe, but still, DAMN.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 367	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:41:00 - [15] - Quote Karn Dulake wrote: iii) Its time consuming. I have never been on a roam that did not take several hours to form up and then several more hours to find a single target that was almost always a PvE ship. Most people donGÇÖt have the time to do this. You sir, are roaming WRONG and Roaming in the WRONG area. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Oxandrolone Bite Me inc 57	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:42:00 - [16] - Quote really great post. I guess i PvP because i like blowing up peoples ships. Killboards are a nice showcase of your kills but i care just as much about my corps kb as my own. I also dislike fighting with with local since i think it gives out way too much intel so i operate mostly in wormholes.
Dar Manic Republic University Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:49:00 - [17] - Quote OP is generally correct... but boy will the butt hurt peeps jump his **** for saying it. Need popcorn cause the flames they are a coming!@!!!
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 258	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:50:00 - [18] - Quote And yet try to make EVE something more, it gets shot down. 'Blow stuff up' has exclusive rights in EVE and the rage monsters come out in force when someone tries to shake that foundation.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Air The Unthinkables 2064	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:53:00 - [19] - Quote Karn Dulake wrote: These are the main reasons that many people will not pew pew and its based around game mechanics and human nature 1. PvP has no purpose in this game. It has no quantative value beyond killing other people. Unless you are in a fixed territory in lowsec or nullsec then you have nothing to defend. And even then you can just move off to somewhere new. This is one of the biggest problems with PvP in EVE. I wouldn't say this is a problem with "PvP in EVE" so much as it is a problem with PvP in highsec. But, taking that into account, what Karn is saying is fundamentally true. In nullsec you fight over territory and moons. In wormholes you fight over lucrative high-income space. In lowsec you (ideally) fight over FW LP, moons and informal control space. In these regions, the game mechanics, although not always well, do support the resolution of conflict over desired things. I remember reading a post by some lowsec corp celebrating two years of camping one gate in Rancer. Not so in highsec. Infrastructure-wise, there is no way to contest ownership of a system, docking rights, manufacturing slots, Incursion usage, etc. Since the Privateers nerf, has any gate or route been 'claimed' by a highsec group? Except of course for miner bumping, that is. If wars can't be used to contest resources and resolve conflict meaningfully, then what else purpose could they serve then predatory PvP for PvP's own sake?
Tarvos Telesto Blood Fanatics 20	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:53:00 - [20] - Quote Since 2006 i have only around 500+ pvp in main and alts, in fact like 300 kills in during one month! This is very low amount of pvp during few years, flying with roam and grinding kills or camping with blob is very easy... I dont like pvp it self because i dont like large pvp in long therm, while in EvE is hard to fight like 1vs1 because to meny enemy (blobs) (alts) (intel- eyes eveywhere) difirent electronic weapons etc, solo pvp is just not for me, i prefer industry, carebears style like missions, exploring , trading and just waching stars nebulas and space ship trafic, PVP in EvE is unique not for everyone, also long therm to prepare fits travel to find pvp where some chance for win etc... While i want pvp i prefer other mmo-s where i got ablity to instant pvp and easy acces to it. I dont say pvp in EvE is horrible, in some aspects is very good, but not for everyone. EvE isn't only about pew pew and if somone got problem with this, maybe he need change own view on this game.
Tah'ris Khlador Space Ghosts. Break-A-Wish Foundation 223	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:55:00 - [21] - Quote Karn Dulake wrote: ...Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. Im a big fan of the Orphanage as they fit this mold... Who? I thought they died a while ago.
Roll Sizzle Beef Space Mutiny 1437	Posted - 2012.10.30 19:55:00 - [22] - Quote Its not all problems, nor sides, yet its pretty valid when only low and high are concerned. As mentioned by: Geligdio Khan wrote: all the juicy industrials you want to shoot are merrily mining and trading in High Sec. The only worthwhile targets are those with isk. So you don't like to pvp in a standard "I shoot you, you shoot me", you are hunting the alts of pvpers and cutting off the wealth as its too much trouble to deal with them when they use their wealth for weapons.
Karn Dulake Sad Flutes 927	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:05:00 - [23] - Quote Tah'ris Khlador wrote: Karn Dulake wrote: ...Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. Im a big fan of the Orphanage as they fit this mold... Who? I thought they died a while ago. They may have done. But when they decked an alliance i was in we fought them to a standstill and they were always good guys and there CEO thanked us for the fight afterwards I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Gogela Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance 1356	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:15:00 - [24] - Quote I think it has to do with a sense of ownership. Nobody really cares about this or that space because space is coated in a conformal grey goo of sameness. Your captains quarters are the same from one station to the next, and you can't even leave your room. Why fight? You can just move for a little while... it's easier. I try to pop haulers for the loot sometimes... but even that is tedious anymore. A big hit gets more and more rare because jump freighters are invulnerable if you do logistics right. Alliances fighting each other are the only ones who get a good fight, otherwise it's just you and some blob of crap fit crap ships. A few things need to happen, and some of it CCP, knowingly or not, is already working on. First, you need to have something worth defending. The modular POS's (and man if we get a jump drive on those at some point that would really be sweet) would be such a thing if they do it right and you really feel like it's 'uniquely yours'. That's a good target. People would defend it, and others attack it. Next, empire space has to stop being the place you go to get rich. Nullsec should be the richest space... it should be better than wormholes or anything. 50% tax on all empire market transactions. Run up taxes on highsec manufacturing too... hell get rid of highsec manufacturing and research slots. level 4 missions go to lowsec. FW is fine. Incursions in highsec should be stupid and worthless. Finally, fix caps. Add a T2 'supercap killer' dread, a cyno jamming ship that can also fit a warp bubble generator like a HIC, some capital class cap jamming ships, etc... broaden out the capital offerings to balance them against one another, and for frak's sake reduce jump range significantly. It's like everyone is running around w/ infinite range portal guns out here. That, I think, would light low and null sec on fire and get people back into the bid-ness of killing spaceships. Otherwise we just continue to trudge along with the same damn complaints in the forums and meh combat in space. DUST is looking better... welp, off to play Halo. Get it? Every Ship in GëíGêçGëí \| [FX7] \| Vote Cthulhu 2012
Adeleda Adoudel Welp The Monkey Free Enterprise Treaty Organization 21	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:16:00 - [25] - Quote Some of that applies to most people. But there are people who just enjoy the adrenaline rush. Many times I've fitted an average nado and gone looking for fights just cause I can. No hours of planning. Just oppertunity. The killboard stats on corporation recruitment isn't always about kills. Sometimes corps just need to see you are actively engaging stuff. Whether winning or losing. The whole taking hours of planning part... sure there are those engagements. But there's also, like I did last night, the odd roam that's just grab a few drakes and head to enemy space. We expected to die. We ended up owning a fleet larger in size and firepower. Sometimes its not all strategy. Sometimes its just a 'why the hell not' moment.
Dar Manic Republic University Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:17:00 - [26] - Quote "DUST is looking better... welp, off to play Halo. Get it? " Can I have your stuff?
Gogela Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance 1356	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:22:00 - [27] - Quote Dar Manic wrote: "DUST is looking better... welp, off to play Halo. Get it? " Can I have your stuff? Why would I ever have to unsub? Honestly? I will never unsub. The game can burn to the ground, I could be the only one logging in, and I'd still sub because I'm rich, b**! (in internet spaceships anyway) If I ever did rage quit, I would just detonate omgwtf expensive ship after omgwtf expensive ship in front of jita 4-4 until I was broke to spite you anyway, and than recycle. ...because I care about the environment. Every Ship in GëíGêçGëí** \| [FX7] \| Vote Cthulhu 2012
Serf of Hurlbat Fueling War Effort 5	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:24:00 - [28] - Quote Gogela wrote: Dar Manic wrote: "DUST is looking better... welp, off to play Halo. Get it? " Can I have your stuff? Why would I ever have to unsub? Honestly? I will never unsub. The game can burn to the ground, I could be the only one logging in, and I'd still sub because I'm rich, b**! (in internet spaceships anyway) If I ever did rage quit, I would just detonate omgwtf expensive ship after omgwtf expensive ship in front of jita 4-4 until I was broke to spite you anyway, and than recycle. ...because I care about the environment. I'll be with EVE until EVE shuts down, and then I'll follow CCP to their next game. It is very rare that you find talented and passionate people like the CCP, and it is important the community sticks with them. I am Prencleeve Grothsmore and I seek retribution.**
Inxentas Ultramar Ultramar Independent Contracting The Paganism Alliance 91	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:36:00 - [29] - Quote I kind of agree with the OP. I do enjoy PvP but it serves no other purpose then my own enjoyment for 90% of the time. I might even go as far as to classify myself as one of these 'predatory' type of players, although I'd like to add another archetype on your list. If you'd be OK with it, I'll roleplay the "mad scientist" who was shunned in Empire and arranged for a secret lab in lowsec. You can consider me to be "mostly harmless", I'm far to busy chatting and derping and generally wringing my hands in order to pvp much. But once I'm bored / done / alone, yeah, why not... let's try this new fit on some hapless ratting citizens muhahaha! Oh, and all the while I need to be on my toes because some mercs live next door who are generally friendly but have no standings with us or whatever. Well, what do you know. Both pvp and pvp avoidance (cloaky cloaky) are seemingly relevant for me. Who would have thought? The main thing is that I have chosen for pvp to be relevant by positioning myself in a place it simply is, by investing in less secure ventures in places others avoid. Granted, some RP and social aspect is thrown in to make matters more interesting, but that's good enough for me. Others prefer sov to make it all look big and official, but in essence it's the same thing - establishing dominance. Dominance in itself, in whatever form, can be a powerfull motivator for pvp oriented players (myself included) whether it is officially endorsed by sovereignity or not. Off course, you are 100% correct in your statement that pvp in and of itself, yields little gameplay benefit. While I personally think that's fine in a pvp game with permaloss, I can see why some gamers would disagree. This benefit can be achieved through player action though, as players can reward one another where the game cannot, for example for keeping a system safe by gatecamping or lighting a cyno. I think this is more of a people issue then a mechanics issue, but the OP raises some valid points.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 342	Posted - 2012.10.30 20:40:00 - [30] - Quote Ocih wrote: And yet try to make EVE something more, it gets shot down. 'Blow stuff up' has exclusive rights in EVE and the rage monsters come out in force when someone tries to shake that foundation. If you don't like EVE as it is, why play it. I'm all for progess, but if I weren't happy NOW I'd do something else.

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