... at least we're getting some love and facetime from CCP ...

We're getting attention. But is bukkake really love?

I wasn't involved in FW until fairly recently. However, is it better now than it was before? (not sarcasm, it's a real question).

I wasn't involved in FW until fairly recently. However, is it better now than it was before? (not sarcasm, it's a real question).

System/warzone control should be a bragging rights/e-peen/roleplay enticement, and nothing more.

I mean Christ. I remember when we were able to sit down and have a pretty decent conversation about mechanics, ....

Did you play FW before Inferno? If so, did you like the FW system then? Not trying to be snide, but this is pretty much how it was before that patch if I remember correctly.

I would much prefer it to go back to inferno or pre inferno.

I hate that every isk I make from occupancy will put 2 isk in my enemies coffer after as soon as I leave.

But the minmatar complained that they were being punished for winning with inferno so ccp had to make sure the rules were even more lopsided in their favor.

But the minmatar make less ISK from FW now then they did before this patch.

The amarr make more.

Isn't this a net positive that both sides are now more equal?

Did you play FW before Inferno? If so, did you like the FW system then? Not trying to be snide, but this is pretty much how it was before that patch if I remember correctly.

But the minmatar make less ISK from FW now then they did before this patch.

The amarr make more.

Isn't this a net positive that both sides are now more equal?

He didn't.

It used to be exactly like he described and everyone complained that there was no meaning. Lots of people on both sides have wanted system occupancy to mean something over the years. Ideas proposed (yes, even by Amarr) were stuff like LP rewards, station lock outs, etc. Stuff we now have; but it seems the people who were so in favor of these changes are not happy now that they have them. Grass is greener and all that.

Poetic, FW was ******* terrible before Inferno. PVP was at an all time low for the 6-12 months prior to Inferno with only some brief spikes when CCP would release new expansions (which is normal for all of EVE). It was literally ****. You are lucky you never knew FW back then: we aren't, otherwise you wouldn't be so quick to judge how Inferno is so ****, and we have to listen to your ill-informed drivel.

Hmmm... I started off trying to be nice in the above paragraph but, well, sorry.

He didn't.

It used to be exactly like he described and everyone complained that there was no meaning. Lots of people on both sides have wanted system occupancy to mean something over the years. Ideas proposed (yes, even by Amarr) were stuff like LP rewards, station lock outs, etc. Stuff we now have; but it seems the people who were so in favor of these changes are not happy now that they have them. Grass is greener and all that.

That's what I was getting at. The line I quoted struck me as contrary to what I remember every other FW player saying before Inferno.

I'm not currently involved in FW so I'm not weighing in on how the new system affects faction balance, but I figured I should point out that the e-peen system has been proven to be boring as hell for everyone involved.

If someone wants to do FW PvE, they should be able to earn X LP/hour. If someone would prefer to spend their time doing FW PvP, they should be able to earn Y LP/hour. X and Y should be approximately the same.

Did you play FW before Inferno? If so, did you like the FW system then? Not trying to be snide, but this is pretty much how it was before that patch if I remember correctly.

Poetic, FW was ******* terrible before Inferno.

Hmmm... I started off trying to be nice in the above paragraph but, well, sorry.

Only because of some terrible bugs (locking plex spawning) and the fact that there were zero rewards. Other than that, what was wrong with it?

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.

I mean Christ. I remember when we were able to sit down and have a pretty decent conversation about mechanics, issues, fights, what-have-you without descending to some base level of "you suck, no you suck". It's a giant negative-feedback circlejerk that is unproductive and inefficient.

We're getting attention. But is bukkake really love?

I mean Christ. I remember when we were able to sit down and have a pretty decent conversation about mechanics, issues, fights, what-have-you without descending to some base level of "you suck, no you suck". It's a giant negative-feedback circlejerk that is unproductive and inefficient.

Personally, I've always had a lot of respect for most of the old-guard Amarr who have always been pretty reasonable and logical (besides some of the obvious nut-cases and trolls [of which there are some from all sides]), but a lot of these new guys seem to just want to pick a fight or make accusations or cry without knowing any of the history of FW. The system used to be ******* ****; now at least we're getting some love and facetime from CCP who I think have done a pretty decent job with Inferno and hoping to fix Inferno's problems with FF and Retribution.

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.

That makes no sense.

Since the idea is to give to players a chance to compete for resources, occupancy and benefits for the warzone control (LP is just only a game mechanics to simulate this).

If the LP reward were the same then there were no intrest and no competition to control the warzones. On the countrary: controlling more system would simply mean having less resources (aka less plex).

Then one can say "I don't like occupancy gameplay". Fine, then do not play it.
But canno't cry and demand to shape everyone's gameplay on a personal dislike.

Nothing in eve is symmetrical, even, balanced, with identical rewards for everyone. Otherwise we go in the direction of instanced premade battlegrounds with same rewards for everyone.

The PVPers always go where the targets are. When the targets move so do the PVPers.

"I want more pew but won't swap sides because"

I have not gotten into faction wars myself. But I believe an objective opinion might be worth something.

It is a fact that the current system really rewards the wining side with better PVE isk/hour.

However Faction Wars is supposed to be PVP content. Looking at it from another view point it is actually very balanced. Before judging my statement please read the rest of my post.

Another fact is there are many PVPers that are looking for good fights and couldn't care less about the PVE isk/hour of faction wars. So if the winning side is drawing in a lot of members then logically this is a driving factor for those looking for PVP to join the opposing faction as they will then have more targets.

The balance will start shifting as the numerous PVE FW bears on the wining faction will be getting there butts kicked by the elite PVPers that joined the other side in their quest for PVP targets. Once these PVPers do enough damage the power will start to shift as more and more of the FW farmers switch over to avoid getting killed. As the power shifts to the other side it will eventually reach the point where there is more isk/hr to be farmed on that side. At this point more and more FW farmers will switch sides taking that faction to the top.

Once that becomes the popular faction then the PVPers will switch to the other side as most of there targets are now on their side. This will start the cycle over again. Faction Wars will continue to flow with power shifting from one side to the other with no further actual game changes. Just by letting the players adapt to the new system. Give it some time. it will happen.

With the current system in place, although very out of whack right now, once the dust settles the FW farmers should be drawn to the wining faction for the bonus isk/hr. While the FW PVPers should be drawn to the losing faction for the increased targets. It is a win win. As the ancient proverb say "It is better to send 1 Lion than 100 sheep." This is also true when comparing PVPers to Farmers in an MMO. It will only take a small number of PVPers to shift the balance and start building up the losing side. The power should continue to shift without ever settling, as long as there are PVPers joining the losing side looking to maximize the number of targets.

I could be way off on this, but it seems to make sense based on my many years of experience playing many different MMO's. The PVPers always go where the targets are. When the targets move so do the PVPers.

I think CCP underestimated the power of traders and made a mistake by leaving implants in the FW LP stores.

From my POV the idea always was:

Faction A wins -> Faction A gets a lot of LP and high ISK/LP -> Faction A keeps winning -> LP store items for Faction A crash hard due to over-supply -> people switch to Faction B following the economic incentive -> Faction B starts winning -> ...

This scheme makes success meaningful by rewarding it with high income - for a time.
As more and more people jump on the bandwagon, ISK/LP deteriorates until it becomes more efficient to push the opposing Faction B to tier 4/5 and give the market for items from Faction A's LP store time to recover.

Nice analysis, but 0 alliances or major corporations from minmatar FW have swapped to amarr to get more fights.

So unfortunately, although your theory is sound, in practice it is not.

Winmatar often make ridiculous and laughable statements...they normall start with



and end with one of the following:

• For bullshit RP reasons I can't swap sides
• I HAVE FRIENDS...I DON'T WANT TO SHOOT MY FRIENDS...I NEVER PLAYED SPORTS AGAINST MY FRIENDS GROWING UP...WHAT IS THIS PLAYING AGAINST YOUR FRIENDS NONSENSE YOU SPEAK OF
• But how am I supposed to make isk?
• Missiles hurt me in plexes and the minmatar shoot them...lasers may run like maze but they hit ****.
• eventually I'll run out of stabber fleet issues and don't know how to actually fly ships that require more than hitting approach and fire.
• i've been minmatar so long...if i leave now...(no one will give a **** if you leave)
• I don't know where my balls are
• The winmatar militia draft board has misplaced my balls
• I didn't read the form when I signed up for winmatar and accidentally checked the box that said "castrate" instead of "temporarily remove"
• I HAVE TO DO MORE THAN 1 MINOR TO PAY FOR A ******* FACTION BATTLESHIP WITH MY LP??!?!?!!11/?!oneone
• i will have to face swarms of stabber fleet issues backed by logi and blackbirds...and the amarr most of the time have half the numbers and can't counter the 25/5/5 SFI/BB/LOGI gang
• I'm scared of pvp that takes risk
• I don't know what risk means, and I'm scared of things I know nothing about
• many amarr pilots likes to go out and fight solo a lot...and i don't know how to fight solo
• i don't want to die in eszur...to the no-skill militia guys there....
• etc. etc. etc.

**Reasonable observations ending with...**

Naive or not, I still think a large majority on both sides actually WANT to fight, and if we can stop the complaining and shitposting about eachother, then perhaps we can make a better place for the both of us.

That actually sort of sounds like the theory soundwave suggested. But it seems not to be working. Minmatar have had the economic edge since inferno and the numbers gap keeps growing in their favor. They lost none of the main pvp corps or alliances. Amarr lost allot of theirs. Minmatar also gained a bunch of occupancy farmers.

Maybe we haven't given it enough time. But how long should it take for the shift to start?

But really what shift are you waiting for? .

Well with so many players on the minmatar side of the Faction Wars, these players will get the most targets by joining the opposing militia. The more that join the Amarr militia the stronger that militia will get., and the more risk farmers will face as the opposing militia is hunting them in greater numbers. It should not take long for this balance to reach a point where the farmers start changing sides for safety reasons and the difference in income will get smaller and smaller as the balance shifts..

Keep in mind that with the way FW farming was working until the last change all factions would spike their own control to cash out and then use alts on the other side to drive it back down to generate better rewards from farming. So most farmers have characters on both sides already. Switching back and forth will not be difficult.

Why have we not seen this change yet? Well up until last week it was still better to keep your faction low and spike it when you needed to cash out. Now with loyalty points being maxed out by keeping you faction control up we will now see actual fighting over control rather than spiking control for cash outs.


All we need now is for the majority of FW PVPers to realize that taking the side of the under dog will give them more targets. .

ZOMG this article might be funniest thing ive ever read in whole hilarious history of funny reading ever. The really funny observations made are both sharply funny, and funnily sharp. I particularly enjoy end where you looked down nose at other peoples PVP and mocked them a bit for it.

How would i go about immediately joining up to your corp? I can only imagine that your comms are ''electric''.

Naive or not, I still think a large majority on both sides actually WANT to fight, and if we can stop the complaining and shitposting about eachother, then perhaps we can make a better place for the both of us.

Well, GENOS along with alt alliance of Goonies (terribad though, easily killed) joined Gallente side so I quess that says enough about desire of "good fights" of all people). After all, it's so much easier to get "good fights" (= ganks) when you have three times the active numbers compared to your enemy.

For most people, it's about the isk and pvp comes secondary to...well....anyone else except those who join Amarr/Caldari militia I quess.

Exactly my point. The good PVPers who actually care more about finding good PVP are already on the under dog side. Since these players are generally much better PVPers than the FW farmers that are so numerous in the Minmatar militia, who actually care more about their bankroll. The actual power will balance out. More and more good PVPers will join the under dog side. Some will just be alts with their mains on the dominant side. Others will actually work to switch their main over.

Just as one Lion is better than 100 sheep. One good PVPer is better than 100 farmers.

I see this shift already happening, but I guess only time will tell.

Exactly my point. The good PVPers who actually care more about finding good PVP are already on the under dog side.

ZOMG this article might be funniest thing ive ever read in whole hilarious history of funny reading ever. The really funny observations made are both sharply funny, and funnily sharp. I particularly enjoy end where you looked down nose at other peoples PVP and mocked them a bit for it.

How would i go about immediately joining up to your corp? I can only imagine that your comms are ''electric''.

long story short, I've heard you in comms and we'd love to have you just to hear your goofy british pedo sounding voice so we can make a soundboard. so put your app in today please.

And with that I'd have to agree it's absolutely shocking we decided against switching sides.

Dude, calm down.

Even though I found your response in poor taste, I'm really not that sensible to prepubescent chest pounding. I was rather referring to the fact that you basically post a list of reasons why Minmatar FW pilots are terrible/gutless/whatever, simultaneously complaining that not more of them join Amarr. Might want to revisit that strategy.

I've removed some off topic posts. Please keep it civil and on topic please. Thank you.

Are you worried about company bottom line when we as consumers also say that your staff is biased and product you created has turned worse with every new edition or only about public image our complaints causes to you?

Well, GENOS along with alt alliance of Goonies (terribad though, easily killed) joined Gallente side so I quess that says enough about desire of "good fights" of all people). After all, it's so much easier to get "good fights" (= ganks) when you have three times the active numbers compared to your enemy.

For most people, it's about the isk and pvp comes secondary to...well....anyone else except those who join Amarr/Caldari militia I quess.

Caldari militia, according to publicised statistics, have more pilots than the Gallente militia. This has been true with years, over the course of fluctuations that have affected both sides.

There's often an assertion that Caldari militia is the one outnumbered, usually based on anecdotal or 'gut' feelings about activity or PvPers versus PvEers. But to my knowledge, no one's ever actually put forth statistical evidence of this.

Exactly my point. The good PVPers who actually care more about finding good PVP are already on the under dog side. Since these players are generally much better PVPers than the FW farmers that are so numerous in the Minmatar militia, who actually care more about their bankroll. The actual power will balance out. More and more good PVPers will join the under dog side. Some will just be alts with their mains on the dominant side. Others will actually work to switch their main over.

Just as one Lion is better than 100 sheep. One good PVPer is better than 100 farmers.

I see this shift already happening, but I guess only time will tell.

From what I can tell after coming back from a two year hiatus is that FW is much better than it was. I love station locks the most I think, even though almost all my stuff ended up being inaccessible . Even if FW isn't perfect now, it's way better than the years of neglect it used to have, and it seems to be moving in the right direction.