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Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.04.07 13:24:00 - [1] Caldari, its your turn to take the gas pipe. "Scorpion has had its Missile Velocity and Shield Hitpoints skill bonus removed and instead given Optimal Range and efficiency bonus for ECM Target Jammers, also base Targeting Range has been increased." I think you just got hit with a corked nerf bat. Your title of L4 mission prince is hereby revoked. I'm surprised nobody is jumping up and down screaming bloody murder! Tbh I understand the philosophy. caldari are becomming more EW focused. But the scorp was already an EW king with all those middle slots. Now it will meerly be EW exclusive. Too bad. I'm sure after about 8 months enough changes will be in place to support making isk reliably and doing pvp from an EW based setup. Like I said, its your turn on the pipe, inhale deep. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Trevize dk	Posted - 2005.04.07 13:31:00 - [2] Sounds like you've been killed over and over and over again by Scorpions.
sven dar	Posted - 2005.04.07 13:32:00 - [3] it will still have an insane shield tank... if u have the right skills. but at this point u might as well fit it with 350mm's and an EW setup
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.04.07 13:32:00 - [4] My understanding is that with the new EW system: moderate skills and no ship boni for EW range = about 60km optimal range moderate skills and the new scorp boni = about 90k optimal range (higher skills bumping it up more of course) I can personally quite see the point of that and/or you have to feel for the ships that try to do EW without the boni. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Porro	Posted - 2005.04.07 13:34:00 - [5] Edited by: Porro on 07/04/2005 13:35:18 I cant see how it'll be useless at level IV's getting rid of a missile velocity bonus doesn't stop it from its torps from hitting small npc frigs also I don't know of an npc battle ship that sits out really far and snipes you. It might even get better for npcing being able to jam the npc's now...
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.04.07 13:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Imhotep Khem I think you just got hit with a corked nerf bat. Your title of L4 mission prince is hereby revoked. I'm surprised nobody is jumping up and down screaming bloody murder! Uh, the Raven is the L4 mission pwner. The Scorp has hideous damage output, even with it's old bonuses, and takes far too long to take down BS rat shields to be worthwhile. So we still get our title! snatches back the L4 missions prince title ---------------- Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun!
David Goodwill	Posted - 2005.04.07 14:43:00 - [7] As someone said, ew will now be able to jam NPCs! This in itself will make a scorp invaluable as a mission running buddy! ----------------------------- Mating call of a pirate... "rarrggghhh, omg r0x0r, ph34r meeeee" Average age: 12..
Kendo Nagis	Posted - 2005.04.07 14:53:00 - [8] Edited by: Kendo Nagis on 07/04/2005 14:54:04 I use the scorp alot and was worried about these changes, but i've tried it out doing a few lvl4's on the test... Ok so the torps don't have the range they once did and the shield has taken a big hit, but i was able to take down 4 scorps and a couple of ravens while taking only some moderate damage to the armor. Oh and yes they were only the 500-1mil npc's in deadspace. Might have been less if i had of jammed/dampened them. It's the changes to missiles I'm worried about... If i can no longer hit a frig flying straight at me with a torp then there is something really f00ked up. Guess we'll have to wait and see on that __________________________ "Death before dishonour, so long as it doesnÆt cost too much."
Aryth	Posted - 2005.04.07 15:10:00 - [9] Now I agree that ca;dari/amarr seem to be favored because of their obvious superiority in SOME respects. But i dont think they are getting nerfed at all. Imagine a sniper thron/tempest/geddon with a scorp as support jamming from 90+k away. thats a scary thought. I think we will all just adapt and the scorp will still be a mean boat that is a formidable opponent. ___________________________________________ No... I must have my oven... My hot cakey treasures piping hot from their 40 watt.
YuuKnow	Posted - 2005.04.07 15:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: Imhotep Khem I think you just got hit with a corked nerf bat. Your title of L4 mission prince is hereby revoked. I'm surprised nobody is jumping up and down screaming bloody murder! Uh, the Raven is the L4 mission pwner. The Scorp has hideous damage output, even with it's old bonuses, and takes far too long to take down BS rat shields to be worthwhile. So we still get our title! snatches back the L4 missions prince title He said "prince", not "king"
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.04.07 16:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Kendo Nagis Edited by: Kendo Nagis on 07/04/2005 14:54:04 It's the changes to missiles I'm worried about... If i can no longer hit a frig flying straight at me with a torp then there is something really f00ked up. Guess we'll have to wait and see on that I agree with that if a torp cant hit a frig thats flying towards you something is wrong. If the frig however turns just before impact that should knock the torp off its path. I guess we will have to w8 and see about that. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Masta Killa	Posted - 2005.04.07 16:11:00 - [12] I already sold my scorp. It's basically been ruined as a good ship for solo killing. Thanks for nothing ccp \o/ -------------------------------------- We are The Collective. Resistance is futile.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.04.07 16:38:00 - [13] To put it simply; no new abilities added, old abilities removed. It could be good in that it was strong in EW now it will be even stronger. I just think that becoming EW God is not much better than being EW King. Especially when you are sacrificing your damage and tanking for it. Im sure it will swing back into balance. Average time on the pipe seems to be about 6-8months ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Bagdh Dearg	Posted - 2005.04.07 18:02:00 - [14] I bought a Scorp a month ago before I had seen these changes and while Im worried Ill lose me tank I really am very interested in these EW changes.Just means I have to get some skills up but I had been meaning to get EW skills up in the first place. _______________________________________________ An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic -He who is not strong must be crafty
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.07 18:29:00 - [15] Edited by: Cummilla on 07/04/2005 18:34:13 Originally by: Aryth Now I agree that ca;dari/amarr seem to be favored because of their obvious superiority in SOME respects. But i dont think they are getting nerfed at all. Imagine a sniper thron/tempest/geddon with a scorp as support jamming from 90+k away. thats a scary thought. I think we will all just adapt and the scorp will still be a mean boat that is a formidable opponent. I appreciate what you are trying to say but it's a little different in terms of the question than your scenario involving the sniper and somehow she\he being more formidable with EW backup. Why? Sniping damage is bunk. Not enough there to pose a threat to anyone beside indies, frigs, and maybe a retard running a intie or someone silly enough to kit out a cruiser for anything. But not all is lost with your question because it does correctly lead one another question which will either give the scorp one possible niche role or just further contribute to the perception that I and others have that you'd just be better off selling them and forgetting about it. What's the real question then? Well, the real question is whether there is enough EW utility to justify me substituting a scorp in for a second tempest as a part of my prefered lineup for a gank duo? Bearing in mind that to be serious about gankage in a tempest you're talking high damage ammo(I like emp), short range(15km to 25km), and pure damage setup. From my point of view, the tests I will run when this goes live are one to two minutes drills where I will see how long the scorp can actually create a situation where target locks are broken and then dampened to the extent that the actual "locked window" for dealing damage by the enemy is significantly reduced to offset the loss of the damage of the second tempest. This is somewhat like what used to be the ideal for fleet role in a tempest where you'd sit out at 200km or what not and cycle jam and dampen people in succession to effectively take X number of BS out of the fight. I know one of the results of the EW changes is that cycle jamming on that scale may not be very likely to happen. But really I'm just concerned with very small 1v2's or 1v1's etc. The whole point is that in order for the scorp to stay around in my lineup of possible ships to fly, it has to have SOME quanitifiable and tested effective role. Otherwise why insure??? Just sell it and be done with it. At any rate, the tests I want to do will have to show that a scorp can really take at LEAST the damage dealing enemy out of the fight for 75 to 80 percent of the time....minimum. Right now, with two tempest in the mix, most any BS pops within 30 to 45 seconds depending on the luck of a few high wrecking hits or better than average shots or the setup of the opposition. If the fights, with just one tempest and the scorp in support, extended out to 60 to 75 seconds, then again the focus is on taking the oppositie off your gankship as a target for at least 60 seconds out of a 75 second fight. If that can happen, I'll keep my scorp. The battles under those constraints will end in the same manner in terms of damage taken on my end as with two tempests versus 1 tempest and 1 scorp. The advantage of using ONE tempest frankly is that people are more likely to stay and fight that second or two you might need to scramble them instead of bailing immediately as they do sometimes when they see two tempest roll up.(to clarify, they'll be more likely to not warp out if you roll up in one bs versus two -- recall that the scorp will most prudently come into the fight on a delayed bases...slight delay that is) I guess everyone might have different ideas about what it will take for them to keep their scorp. My gut reaction is that it's just not gonna happen. I'll end up selling like everyone else :p
BATT	Posted - 2005.04.07 21:40:00 - [16] Quote: At any rate, the tests I want to do will have to show that a scorp can really take at LEAST the damage dealing enemy out of the fight for 75 to 80 percent of the time.... The scorp in Pvp doesn't take damage well,cause you need all mid slots for fast lock and jamming ,scrambling or web.. If a scorp is locked against a raven or an apoc or tempest...either it will die or it has to run.. what i am really interested to know is ,after proper training of the new Ew skills.. How effectivelly will i be able to jamm one tempest (for instance) with one racial module..at range .
Darkwolf	Posted - 2005.04.07 21:58:00 - [17] Originally by: BATT what i am really interested to know is ,after proper training of the new Ew skills.. How effectivelly will i be able to jamm one tempest (for instance) with one racial module..at range . With an ECM - Phase Inverter II, your strength will be 10.368 at Caldari Battleship 4 and Signal Dispersion 4, with an optimal of 116km at Long Distance Jamming 4 / Frequency Modulation 4. Given that a Tempest has a sensor strength of 19, that's something like a 10.368 / 19 = 54.5% chance to jam with one jammer. At ginormous ranges :)
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.04.07 22:41:00 - [18] As an overall gameplay I think the whole EW change is being handled rather improperly from what I have done/gathered from dev info and test server. To me the other cruisers, such as the celestis - bellicose - and augorer need to be transformed into ewar platforms as well much like the logistics cruisers were for extenders/transferers. This way you don't have to train for a blackbird or scorpion to do ewar. Will my new scorpion be going up for sale? Probably not since I don't use ewar and have my own special configs that aren't violated by any nerf to any bonus. I think outside the box when given the opportunity. -----
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2005.04.07 22:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Darkwolf With an ECM - Phase Inverter II, your strength will be 10.368 at Caldari Battleship 4 and Signal Dispersion 4, with an optimal of 116km at Long Distance Jamming 4 / Frequency Modulation 4. Given that a Tempest has a sensor strength of 19, that's something like a 10.368 / 19 = 54.5% chance to jam with one jammer. At ginormous ranges :) ! ----------- Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll.
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.08 00:42:00 - [20] Edited by: Cummilla on 08/04/2005 00:45:26 Originally by: BATT Quote: At any rate, the tests I want to do will have to show that a scorp can really take at LEAST the damage dealing enemy out of the fight for 75 to 80 percent of the time.... The scorp in Pvp doesn't take damage well,cause you need all mid slots for fast lock and jamming ,scrambling or web.. If a scorp is locked against a raven or an apoc or tempest...either it will die or it has to run.. what i am really interested to know is ,after proper training of the new Ew skills.. How effectivelly will i be able to jamm one tempest (for instance) with one racial module..at range . The scorp doesn't tank at all in my scenario. He warps in slightly delayed from the gankship\teamate(in my example a tempest), and then he needs to be able to deny the target lock for 60 seconds out of a 75 second fight or 80 percent of the time to "contribute" enough to warrant taking him over another gankship in a duoing situation. If he can't lock one ship down for that long, then I'm getting rid of the scorp and replacing it with a damage ship. At that point the scorp will have lost it's last chance, in my view, at finding a niche role in Eve.
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.08 01:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Darkwolf Originally by: BATT what i am really interested to know is ,after proper training of the new Ew skills.. How effectivelly will i be able to jamm one tempest (for instance) with one racial module..at range . With an ECM - Phase Inverter II, your strength will be 10.368 at Caldari Battleship 4 and Signal Dispersion 4, with an optimal of 116km at Long Distance Jamming 4 / Frequency Modulation 4. Given that a Tempest has a sensor strength of 19, that's something like a 10.368 / 19 = 54.5% chance to jam with one jammer. At ginormous ranges :) Exactly. Everyone crying that the EW changes are a huge nerf need to STFU.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.04.08 08:47:00 - [22] Originally by: YuuKnow Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: Imhotep Khem I think you just got hit with a corked nerf bat. Your title of L4 mission prince is hereby revoked. I'm surprised nobody is jumping up and down screaming bloody murder! Uh, the Raven is the L4 mission pwner. The Scorp has hideous damage output, even with it's old bonuses, and takes far too long to take down BS rat shields to be worthwhile. So we still get our title! snatches back the L4 missions prince title He said "prince", not "king" Uh, so did I. Unless you're making a bad joke that I just don't get... ---------------- Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun!
Darkwolf	Posted - 2005.04.08 08:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Kaylona Tso To me the other cruisers, such as the celestis - bellicose - and augorer need to be transformed into ewar platforms as well much like the logistics cruisers were for extenders/transferers. This way you don't have to train for a blackbird or scorpion to do ewar. From the patchnotes, which are here; http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp Celestis has had its Hybrid Turret Tracking skill bonus removed for a bonus for Remote Sensor Dampeners, also base Targeting Range increased and a low slot has been removed from it and given an extra med slot instead. EW isn't really the Amarr/Minmatar way, but they still are now going to have an EW frigate, at the least (tracking disruptors for amarr, target painters for minmatar).
Typherin laidai	Posted - 2005.04.08 09:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: Imhotep Khem I think you just got hit with a corked nerf bat. Your title of L4 mission prince is hereby revoked. I'm surprised nobody is jumping up and down screaming bloody murder! Uh, the Raven is the L4 mission pwner. The Scorp has hideous damage output, even with it's old bonuses, and takes far too long to take down BS rat shields to be worthwhile. So we still get our title! snatches back the L4 missions prince title Scorp fits prince title quite nicley actually Raven being King (naturally) Scorp also being damn good at Lev4 missions (if not a little slow to finish off the larger spawns) overtank setup for teh win. Typherin Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5 'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant'
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.08 09:22:00 - [25] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 08/04/2005 09:25:03 Originally by: Kaylona Tso As an overall gameplay I think the whole EW change is being handled rather improperly from what I have done/gathered from dev info and test server. To me the other cruisers, such as the celestis - bellicose - and augorer need to be transformed into ewar platforms The new celestis is awesome on the test server. With Phased Muon RSD I get >70% reduction in enemy targeting range and scan resolution per module. Oh and now you can fit four of them which stack (penalty of course) giving a BS locking range of single digit km, and locking time of a century... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
4 LOM	Posted - 2005.04.08 09:32:00 - [26] On a side note anyone gone on sisi and tried a level 4 mission fitted with EW? since you can now jam npc's maybe the scorpian can WTF jam everything to hell and back, also as pvp i think the scorp will excell even more, with one jammer you can jam a bs over 50% of the time at uber long range... think what 8 can do if you had 8 jamming 8 targets 50% of the time from 100km... umm thats on average 4 bs's out of the loop and you could have a chance of all 8 being removed.... dont complain about something untill its tested, i have no idea if its gona be any good.... i dont fly a scorp so have not tested it on sisi, but maybe you guys should?
B'laze	Posted - 2005.04.08 13:16:00 - [27] Scorps now sound like alot of fun Whats the problem with having a good EW ship? I was a proud caldari (main character) then after having a fight with a friend (which i won) i realised how bad missile's really are now i can sell my raven and get a scorp , which may be worth having
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.04.08 20:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Darkwolf Originally by: Kaylona Tso To me the other cruisers, such as the celestis - bellicose - and augorer need to be transformed into ewar platforms as well much like the logistics cruisers were for extenders/transferers. This way you don't have to train for a blackbird or scorpion to do ewar. From the patchnotes, which are here; http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp Celestis has had its Hybrid Turret Tracking skill bonus removed for a bonus for Remote Sensor Dampeners, also base Targeting Range increased and a low slot has been removed from it and given an extra med slot instead. EW isn't really the Amarr/Minmatar way, but they still are now going to have an EW frigate, at the least (tracking disruptors for amarr, target painters for minmatar). Ha thats what happens when you take a vacation... the Devs actually read my post ol' ISD kept removing off the main Ewar change thread... Ov 4tw! -----
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.08 23:09:00 - [29] Originally by: 4 LOM On a side note anyone gone on sisi and tried a level 4 mission fitted with EW? since you can now jam npc's maybe the scorpian can WTF jam everything to hell and back, also as pvp i think the scorp will excell even more, with one jammer you can jam a bs over 50% of the time at uber long range... think what 8 can do if you had 8 jamming 8 targets 50% of the time from 100km... umm thats on average 4 bs's out of the loop and you could have a chance of all 8 being removed.... dont complain about something untill its tested, i have no idea if its gona be any good.... i dont fly a scorp so have not tested it on sisi, but maybe you guys should? With sensor boosters on most ships these days, dampening after you target jam is critical to taking them out of the fight for what you'd term a "significant" amount of time. Or heck, just enough time to cycle back to them. This is "wait and see" time. I just don't see how it's gonna work pvp. Or at least it could work just as easily on a cruiser or frigate throwing the EW dice and coming right for you for a ton less isk risked. See what I mean?

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