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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43
It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs don¦t know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I don¦t have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i don¦t like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch.
I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods.
I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage.
Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule.
EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups???
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:30:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:30:20
Wipeout  100% wipeout
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:35:00 -
[3]
No need for cookie - first thing i do (i am not a n00b with crappy gunskills and all my corpmates have good gunskills) is to fit my Tempest with 4 sensor boosters, a tracking comp and max damage mods. As i said: no problem to adapt, but did EVE get better with this patch??? I don¦t think so.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 10:28:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
you want some cheese??
adapt or quit!
If pvp was too easy it was too easy.
Ew allowed gankage to be far too easy. Now you will have to actualy work for a kill. Is that such an issue to the majority?? NO it isn't.
Does it change things, yes, will it cause players to change tactics, yes.
Do you have to play, NO, you can go play a FPS game for that insta gankage thrill, while the rest of eve plays the RPG...
As i said there is no problem to adapt - i am not complaining about having problems to adapt. My question is: will this EW-patch make PVP better??? My reaction on this patch will be the massive usage of fastlocking gunships that toast EW ships before they even get a lock. We dont have to discuss that a single Scorpion in a fleet of 10 is a very usefull ship (and primary target  ) - but what most unexperienced PVPers (inculding the DEVs) dont see is that coordination of several EW ships isnt easy and this means that the bigger the battle is, the less usefull EW will be. I think 5 vs 5 already is the limit, in an 10 vs 10 it¦s impossible to coordinate the EW efforts. 10 gunships will do massive damage within seconds, while 10 EW-Scorpions will have massive problems on teamspeak!
In a 10 Scorp vs 10 gunships (fastlock+max-damage) 2 Scorpions will allready be destroyed before they get a lock!!! While the Scorp-players try to coordinate their efforts to jam the gunships more of them die. Once they jammed most enemys they have to re-ccordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. Only 1 not jammed gunship can destroy another Scorpion within 20-30 seconds, while the Scorpions damage output is low, depending on range even less than low.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 12:21:00 -
[5]
To answer the poeple that like the changes and expect a "more balanced" game or more balanced fleets - this will not happen. Extreme fleets with pure and fast ganking-firepower are the best reaction on this patch. Combined with covert ops these gankteams will allways be at their optimal range and they will kill fast - and warp out if jammed. The game mutated to be pure gank. ECM was the counterbalance to damagemod-stacking. This is broken now.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 15:38:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Lifewire u nub!!!
dont say stuff like this!!
CCP base EVERY pvp patch on tundragon.
i mean i cant go into details right now, but from what i have seen, they do. its either that, or coinsidence. i mean the last 2 i can remember when i was fighting against u was the large groups of thoraxs with more drones than a Bumble Bee jigglo house, ganking norad BS left right and centre. then speed ruptures(altho used by CA and others alike).
but seriously i think TDG and the devs should have a 10 vs 10 anyway.
my 50 cents
lol...we loved EW...especially when attacking outnumbered it was the only option to win a 5 vs 10. But the EW changes does not only affect Tundragons - it will affect the consistance of all fleets. Since i play EVE extreme tactics (5 Thorax, frig-only, EW-strike, Gank-firepower) work very good. And the EW patch is the try to balance an extreme tacticc (EW-strike/jam the whole enemy team). But in the end it only favors another extreme tactic: the gankfleet with fastlocking damagedealers. My corpmates and me really have no problem in adapting, since 95% of us have very very good tempest/geddon or gun skills. But does this mean i have to like this patch? I see the problem that EVE as game looses and that PVP got less interesting.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 18:48:00 -
[7]
When i read the answers here i think that a lot of people talk about things they did not experience much. "Testing on testserver" and talking about the "new EW-pilot career"...sorry guys, that¦s all theory that cannot be compared to tranquillity ship-setups. A prepatch attack on 10 enemy BS with 5 Scorpions (EW-strike with a good EW-plan) was possible - i wouldnt try this now postpatch. Prepatch-attacks were allready very dangerous if the EW-group failed to jam all enemys damagedealers very quick. Since the backup arrays (ECCM) are lowslot items, EW was the direct counterpart to damagemod-stacking.
BShips have 3 main attributes: damage output, value the ship can suffer damage and possible EW-options. If we talk about gang combats we talk of battles between 5 or 10 or up to 50 vs 50 players... we talk about teamplay. The larger the battle is, the harder it is to coordinate EW-efforts. It was already a prepatch problem that EW-ships didnt have a high combat value in large engaments. Pure firepower ruled. Tanking is also useless since the "primary target" will die anyway - tanked or not, it will die in 0,5-2 seconds...if tanked in 2 seconds - lol.
Give me just 1 reason to fit more than 1 EW ship now after patch! To have teamspeak full of EW-pilots pressing sendkey to coordinate their EW-battle??? No thanks - pure firepower will now rule even more than prepatch! 1 fleetcomander will name primary and secondary targets and this will be EVE-PVP. This is why the EW-patch is NOT a good patch. People that know little or nothing about PVP discussed "how EW has to be changed" and DEVs with also low knowledge about what really happens out there in deep 0.0 just patch without seeing the problem that they made EVE a less interesting game. Be sure that our huntingteam will be 10 maxdamage and fastlocking gunships in future. Whatever warps or jumps in will simply be ganked in 0.5 seconds (fleetvolley). On the other hand the frig-hunting-style is highly boosted with this EW-patch. The EW-patch is a gift for groups of 5-10 frigates that want to sink single-flying BS. I am not ****ed about "being nerfed" since i am not nerfed! I simply don¦t like that EVE lost a gamestyle and is reduced to pure firepower. I do agree with people that say 1 Scorpion in a group of 10 ships is a usefull ship - no question: this EW-Scorpion can jam up to 3-4 ships with some luck and such an EW-Scorpion can definitivly win a battle "alone" by reducing the enemy firepower. But coordinating several EW-ships will be nearly impossible and the best part of EVE (attacking 10 enemy BS in 5 BS or attacking 5 BS in 5 Blackbirds) will be history now.
The real problem were people that didnt fit backups and complained a lot about beeing jammed all the time. Soon they will complain about brutal firepower - just a mather time. EW was fine - now it¦s a "toy" and all gangs will have 1 Scorp (that always will be primary target ).
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 22:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lifewire on 13/04/2005 22:10:04
Quote:
1 v 1 at any normal range (15km-150km), the scorp can jam any gunship without much problem at all (assuming ew skills and bship skills are trained to decent levels). 5 jammers, Sensor Booster, Shield Booster, Shield Boost amp/Shield hardener. If you need a little extra range add a sig amp in a lowslot. With that setup, you should never lose to a sniper 1v1.
This makes me think you did not participate in many battles. In a 15km battle the enemy BS can easily fire a (if Tempest devastating) volley and knock out shield before Scorpion has a lock. Rest can be done with FOFs and drones. The Scorpion itself doesnt have the damage output to win the battle fast enough. In a 150km battle the Scorpions damage is reduced to 0...repeat: 0. While the sniper can warp-in and out and always get a lock again before being jammed. Winning a 1 vs 1 in a Scorp is not easy. Winning a 1 vs 1 in a gankageddon is very easy.
Quote:
10 v 10 with the same scorp setup, the primary scorp target will not likely die before the scorp fleet gets a lock though it will take serious damage.
Bull$hit - 10 gunships destroy a Scorpion in less than 2 seconds. I don¦t know what you think a gunship is - me i think gunships have a average damageoutput of 800+/second. Setups with much more are possible. If we calculate a damage-output of 1000/second/gunship, the primary targets is down after 2 seconds. That¦s not fun - that¦s pure firepower and very easy combat. The primary targets are just unlucky guys that see their ship and 1 second later they see Structure, another second later they sit in pod.
Quote:
At sniping ranges, you will definitely not kill a ship before they can lock. If there is no other coordination than each ship jam another ship, the 10 gunships are rendered useless.
Hellohello - jamming 10 ships is not easy! The coordination on teamspeak to jam 10 ships needs a lot of time...too much. While the Scorpteam talks about who jams who they die like flys (1 BS all 2 seconds). A 10 ship Tempest fleet volley knocks out any known ship in this game. You might survive in a ship with 30000 hitpoints though.
Quote:
If the gunships are closer with stronger ammo, you could possibly lose a scorp before all the gunships are targeted and jammed.
You WILL loose ships and not only 1! If 10 Gunships open fire and split fire on 2 targets you loose 2 BS all 4 seconds...4 seconds!!! This is the time a Scorp with 2 sensor boosters needs to get a lock! We are not talking about NPCs - we talk about players...good players, fast players that know 0.0 rules: fire and talk later.
Quote:
However, it will be HIGHLY unlikely to lose a second scorp unless the pilots are complete idiots.
You don¦t have to be an idiot to loose more than 2 Scorps - but beeing and idiot probably makes you loose 3-4 very quick.
Quote:
The truth is that EW is still VERY effective and quite useful in fleet engagements especially in a scorp or blackbird.
As i said 1 Scorpion is VERY effective...but 5 Scorpions are not because coordinating EW recommends very good and trained personal. That a single Scorpion is eefective will cause that a single Scorpion in a fleet battle will for sure be primary target.
So far i have to say that nobody can say why this patch improves the game. There is also no complaining of Caldary players, since most PVPers did split their skills and are able to fly other ships. Me for example can fly Tempest or Megathron with same skill level and all my corpmates have decent gunskills. Sure, we all can adapt on this - no question. But was the game improved??? I still don¦t think so.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 23:19:00 -
[9]
Quote:
EW was not fine before the patch, it required no skill wotsoever, u could target jamm any damn ship u wanted at any damn range u wanted and it was **** easy, it least now its like everything else, you train skills to get your EW/ECM higher in order to become better at pVp. It aint one rule applys to all now. and the only way the devs wouldnt win is if u fitted sumet to counter the jammers, if not you would be toast.
Sir yes sir
oh my good 
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.14 10:41:00 -
[10]
To answer Gabriel Karade:
Sisi testing and Tranquilitys battles are 2 different things. I did not say that the Scorpion was totally nerfed. The coordination of EW was changed, though. A single Scorpion is pretty usefull - no doubt. But several EW ships will have big problems coordinating the EW since items now work luck based. The more ships in a battle use EW the more coordination is needed. Once 4-5 EW ships work teamspeak will be full of "i failed jamming XY" or "i also jammed him - $hit". This is not Sisi, this is Tranquility. Coordinating several EW ships with luck based items and do this again after each cicle is not possible (in time). Coordinating gunships meanwhile is very easy: call 2 targets and all players lock fast, then all press F1-F8. That¦s why the gankstyle is highly favorised with this patch and be sure i will use the simple concept of pure brutal gankfleets instead of wasting my time with EW-ships ccordination.
I dont know why people do not understand that 10 Scorpions will have problems to jam 10 enemy ships - it may be lack of combat experience. In theory its easy:"1 Scorp jams each 1 enemy"...but Tranquillity is not theory...if you want to jam 10 enemys you need a lot of time to coordinate the usage of each single EW-item.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.14 13:41:00 -
[11]
Quote:
I'm still not seeing how this patch will increased the difficulty and degree of coordination required to that pre-patch
true
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.14 16:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lifewire on 14/04/2005 16:27:13
Why coordinating EW is much more difficult postpatch:
Example Scorpion with 7 multis, 1 sensor booster.
Prepatch jamming was receiving your EW-target from your gangleader, lock it and jam it. If multiple targets were assigned to you, then you had to popjam those. Postpatch you receive your target(s) and start to use for example 1 multi. You might waste up to 6 more multis if you do not wait for the result of this first EW-effort. It might happen that your first 3-4 multis do not jam, but you always have to wait for the result of the item. If you totally fail to jam you have to press teamspeak send key to infrom your gangleader that you failed to jam. So far so good - if you are the only EW ship in your team you simply put your EW items on locked enemy damagedealers. Now try to imagine what happens in a 20 vs 20. Several EW ships start to jam the enemy ships. It¦s not usefull to give each EW-pilot "his" target, since it is possible that he jams with his first multijammer (has 6 more to use!!!) and it¦s on the other hand possible that he doesnt jam at all. I think teamspeak in an EW-team will be such a mess that it doesnt make sense anymore to use EW. It will happen very often that several EW-ships jam the same ship, while other damagedealers dont get jammed at all because of the chance based jamming. Meanwhile the pure gankteam with damagedealing and fastlocking gunships simply names primary after priamry and toasts 1 EW-ship after the other - is this understood now?
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.14 20:10:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Yep sniping is now the Number 1 sport .................
The EW changes Sux ...
It¦s so good to see some of the old guys with brain - gimme 5 mongo
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.15 16:05:00 -
[14]
This is what happens when DEVs that do not play enough EVE change things. Who ever is the boss in CCP - the DEVs should be forced to play EVE 4 h/day and their time to change the code should be limited to another 4 h. And they should be forced to play in Syndicate 
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.17 00:18:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lifewire on 17/04/2005 00:20:26
Edited by: Lifewire on 17/04/2005 00:19:18
Our experiences with the new EW-patch so far:
- in pure ganksetups only the numbers of ships count. This means if you have 5 and "they" have 7 - you will loose. Now way to change this, you will loose.
- a single Scorpion in a small battle is uber. I managed to jam a group of 4 BS and even had jammers left for frigs. It was a 6 of us vs 7 enemys. Enemy had no EW and was totally wiped out.
- BBs suck much. I used 6 multis on a group of enemy BS and none of the multis did work. BBs dont have the bonus on jamming strenght and so they are absolutly crap if you use multis. BBs were so nice ships earlier in game - sad.
- battles where more than 2 EW ships have to coordinate their efforts to jam are a mess. Teamspeak/gangchannel absolutly problematic since the coordination of EW-items cannot be handled.
What do we learn out of this: the larger the fleet the less usefull is EW. battles bigger than 5 vs 5 are hard to coordinate. Single EW-ship in smaller battles is uber and makes it possible to wipeout whole enemy team. Sniping and blobbing will increase. Small elite teams have to evade larger groups now - fighting them outnumbered is nearly impossible now. All in all EVE PVP lost and ganking is all that is left. Battles 5 vs 5 are still fun though. But if both teams have an EW-ship it¦s all chance based. No skill - it¦s luck.
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