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NeoMorph
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Posted - 2003.07.05 18:28:00 -
[1]
I dont have this problem myself but am sick to death of "pirates" taking ore from miners in high security systems and the miners cannot do a thing to stop them and then the "pirates" brag that it's easy money because they don't even lose security. I don't want a "carebear" type fix that means if you take from the cargo pod the cops jump on you but something really needs to be done about this blatent abuse of the game engine.
What I suggest is this... anyone who is in the same gang or corp can take from the miners cargo container without any problem but anyone who takes from the container who isn't part of the gang/corp gets a security hit from the corp and anyone in the miners corp can shoot at the thief without CONCORD jumping on them for shooting an "innocent" pilot.
This would allow the mining corp to have their guards posted to protect their miners from the thieves who use the fact that you cant shoot them for stealing and who abuse the system just to grief the miners.
One problem that was pointed out is that players could dump cargo and then move off and wait for someone to come and try and take the cargo so they can ambush them. The solution to this could be the cargo container is "owned" by the person who drops it but it is released when the owner moves more than 5000 metres away from it.
This would at least give the miners a chance to get their ore back.
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<Stavros> the first motor bike i ever rode
<Stavros> was a honda gold wing
<Ak-Gara> hah
<Stavros> |
Praxeon
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Posted - 2003.07.05 18:44:00 -
[2]
One solution, and IMHO the best one is to not get CCP or CONCORD involved with this problem.
I have been in groups with corp/gang and have had people approach in hoarders. We look a minute later and a substantial amount of ore is missing. We send them a nas-t-gram with baited threats and so far all of them have left us alone (after we also went to a different roid field of course). The next steps we have taken are to coordinate when we jettison we give a signal in the chat so that our indys will focus and immediately grab what is there.
Since we have been stolen from ,and immediately found a solution to the problem, I have absolutely no sympathy for those who whine about it. As for theft, as soon as something leaves your direct control it is fair game. Possession is 9 tenths of the law. It is not like they are stealing directly from your cargo holds.
There are other solutions to this problem without getting the devs involved, you just have to get creative. (OTOH, maybe CCP can fix the jettison/cargo full timer bug and perhaps reduce the counter by a minute or two...
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.05 22:05:00 -
[3]
According to the legal system inside the game, it is not considered a violation of any law to salvage free floating items in space. This is the way the law is in game, so you will have to exercise your rights in the game to deal with those who would salvage ore and other items.
According to the legal system inside the game, it is a violation of the law to attack another citizen, unless it is done in self defense of life (i.e. they have to shoot you first).
For those who wish to have the laws changed, it would seem the Intergalactic Summit would be a good place to voice your opinion. It will be the in-game law which will need to be ratified. Perhaps, with enough support, some of the governmental bodies will ratify their laws to include protection of jettisoned containers.
Be aware, in the past, such law ratifications often incur additional charges. I would not be surprised to see increased taxes imposed to cover the additional costs incurred with extending monitoring to include jettisoned containers, container ownership registration, processing fees, and any number of other costs.
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Jean Francois
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Posted - 2003.07.06 01:53:00 -
[4]
Freelancers can not have an Indy there ready to collect the Ore...
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Rimmon Alaster
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Posted - 2003.07.06 08:05:00 -
[5]
I think a good way to keep container looters away would be to do it with keys, like with encryption. You could create seperate keys for different groups of people and hand them out in much the same way that you can hand out bookmarks.
For example, you'd create a key called "corp" and give it to all of your corp mates, or one called "friends" for you friends, etc.
That way, anyone with the appropriate key could lock containers and have the ability to view/add to or take from the contents of that container.
To add a little spice to it, there could be a module that decrypts the locks on the containers so that cargo thieves could still loot them. But doing so would be considered a hostile act and result in a lower security level, a little attention from CONCORD, in addition to allowing the player who locked the container and anyone in his/her gang to open fire freely. :)
It might be hard to do but it sounds good, well, to me at least. :)
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Han Wesker
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Posted - 2003.07.06 08:11:00 -
[6]
"Freelancers can not have an Indy there ready to collect the Ore..."
This is an online game....find a friend/ make a friend. There are 5000+ people playing this game.
Sorry for being a jerk, but c'mon :)
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Galk
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Posted - 2003.07.06 23:03:00 -
[7]
edited
Edited by: Galk on 06/07/2003 23:03:51 |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.06 23:17:00 -
[8]
"I dont have this problem myself but am sick to death of "pirates" taking ore from miners in high security systems and the miners cannot do a thing to stop them (..)"
The whole problem exists solely because the miners apparently can't be arsed to warp back to station and unload their ore once they are full.
Therefore saying there's nothing they can do to stop this is simply untrue.
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Abigail
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Posted - 2003.07.07 02:46:00 -
[9]
I agree too.. that there should be something done about people taking ore at least from cargo containers.. Mostly because just about any corp that is mining in numbers will have a few people in smaller ships and a indy running to pick up after them.. only because that is the most productive way of doing it. Otherwise it would take about 3 times as long to gain the same amount of ore going back and forth in say a imicus. Just because other people do not want to waste there time mining doesnt make it fair for the ones that do.
Persoanly I prefer not to mine. But I can see how this is unfair to the ones that do.
When it comes to pirate loot on the other hand.. if you leave it, then it is ther for anyone to take. Because when you are out pirate hunting you rarly have a indy coming in after you to clean up.
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FingerThief
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Posted - 2003.07.07 07:21:00 -
[10]
Well,
there's another situation arising !
There are sum players which have started to threaten like "Gimme 500k or I shoot your cargo container" in 1.0 and .9 systems.
Well, I personally, blast my darn cargo container and laugh at them ( mainly mining in .2 anyways ) but when you want to teach them a lesson CONCORD is there and puts you out of existance.
There has to be a quick solution against those types of griefers. CONCORD is good yep, but they can take out of or shoot your cons without getting the slightest problem. The moment you want to scratch them ... police BS says hello to you ... not nice.
There has to be a solution. Either locking cargo for the time it's used or bigger "ownable" cons then med.
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Terrapin
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Posted - 2003.07.07 09:55:00 -
[11]
I was thinking something along Rimmon's solution..
Just add another container type to the market which, when jettisoned, gives you the option to set a 'lock level'. Three levels would do;
1. unlocked
2. locked at corp level
3. locked at owner level
(and possibly
4. locked at gang level)
That way no keys/passwords or whatever would be necessary.
I also like the lockpick module/skill idea, so someone with this module/skill can still open the container, resulting in a security hit if a corp member happens to be in the same location when a lock is picked.
That way people who enjoy being a nuisance can still loot other people's containers, and freelancers will have the option to protect their cargo.
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Gregarios
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Posted - 2003.07.07 15:24:00 -
[12]
one possible solution for this and group mining, and the timer problem with canister jetison.
Allow direct cargo transfer between ships, the person collecting would only be able to access with authorisation and only from a special designated area!
Do Not Disturb!, I'm Disturbed enough as it is! |
Klydor
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Posted - 2003.07.07 16:04:00 -
[13]
I'd prefer it if you could attack people who steal from you.
Since everyone like analogys such as does putting your brief case down mean people can steal it.. well heres my take on it..
I get out my car to fill it with petrol, (I'm flying right next to the cargo container).. Someone opens my car door and starts routing through the glove compartment and picking up and money or cds etc (they start taking ore out of container).
Now if I go overboard and kill them (pod em) I'm in trouble (take a security hit), if I do serious damage to them (Blow up their ship) I'm also in trouble although not quite as much as killing them.. (Less a security hit but still quite a bit).
If however I use reasonable force to prevent them stealing.. (taking their sheilds down and damaging their ship which will cost em to repair) then I beleive you should take no security hit.
I guess my main concern at this point is that when you take a security hit your screwed you have to stay more or less in 0.0 space. There is no way to smuggle yourself through empire space etc.
If there were ways to smuggle yourself between stations etc and eventually you get hunted down then that would be fine.
IMHO the problem is not that you take security hits, (for example podding someone is virtually murder so you should take a big hit.. But only with the factions that player was in good standing with) its the fact that the entire game area is focused around empire space at this time, most profit can be made their through trade routes and safe mining (ok not all, but a lot).
Once players have a much greater insentive to move to lower security space, such as player built/run stations we will see less problems with security.
If we own a sector of space we should be able to declare what our standing is to other corps and vary this whenever we want. If a corp fires on us we should be allowed to set them to -0.5 or -1.0 etc and make them hunted in our system.. as our faction status will only apply in our space, or the space of our allies.
If you then pay us off or make peace we can set your standing back to 0.0
This would entail a fair amout of work to implement, but the rewards IMHO in terms of game play would be vast. So what if n00bs are 100% safe in empire space, eventually they will want to come to 0.0 areas to carve their own empires.
Empire wars become an option... Even if one corp becomes huge and owns loads of space, other corps would eventually force alliences against them...
Freedom is what will drive this game. The current security system temporary or not will work perfectly well, once players have incentives to move to lower security space.
Gameplay will be greatly increased once you can set the standing of players in relation to your corp by yourself. Setting a standing of very low like -1.0 would be like declaring war and must have the same waiting period. But other than that, allow standings between corps to be set by general concensus not by whether one corp has fired on the other.
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Drewbicus
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Posted - 2003.07.07 16:28:00 -
[14]
It comes down to this: It's a choice between freedom of play and lack thereof.
If you want to give people freedom to play in more ways they need to be able to steal - but for fairness, anyone stealing nees to be attackable by the person(s) stolen from without the cops blasting them, and a thief needs to be subject to local law enforcement.
If you want to restrict that and make such thievery impossible, simply make containers, when ejected, require someone to set who can open it (self, gang, corp, any).
It's just a matter of picking which concept you want (free play, or more security) and going with it.
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Galk
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Posted - 2003.07.07 16:55:00 -
[15]
Only a problem that will get worse if left as it stands.
There's allready one griefer corp moved into highend empire space that i know of doing the stealing.
Sure they stole from me last night, that was no biggy 40 mins of watching tv while i had allready made millions all day anyway, so i just sat there and watched them do it, while getting a little conversation in (i dunno something along the lines of 'your lucky i don't blow up you ship ect..)'
But hell it was funny when the stole from the local corp this morning.
After the moron started getting threats from the corp involved, he had to go get his CEO to grovel to the corp involved after they threatend to waste him and his bunch of fellow newb greifers into oblivion.
They made him return the ore LOL:)
And to think the 'claimed' ex m3g4 memember involved in the stealing, has sunk so low into stealing 7k buckets of ore from newbs in 0.8 systems:D.
You gota laugh at that, even though there's a sinister element that will surely follow in his footsteps if left unchecked:/
Locked containers, why not ehh, what would that take away from the game?
Ohh apart from the greifer element, which might upset the trolls and the kids involved, but hey thats no small price to pay is it:)
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Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/ |
Anan Phitzora
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Posted - 2003.07.07 18:58:00 -
[16]
Isnt there already a solution to this problem?
Cant you just take out a bounty on these indivduals who take free floating containers?
Shouldnt most of these corps have the resourses to fund this kind of revenge?
I new so forgive my ingnorance. But perhaps CCP should have a system where if you are bountied, someone attaking you or killing you should take a security hit or at least a lower one.
Edited by: Anan Phitzora on 07/07/2003 19:05:00
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Gantell
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Posted - 2003.07.07 22:32:00 -
[17]
I have a solution but you will have to bare with me through some of the details first.
A few thing to consider:
1. In regards to quotes as to the definition of Jettison, this only refers to the location and disirablity of the material not its ownership. In RL jettioned property does not change ownership untill it becomes abandoned.
2. A RL example, if I am dredging for ore on the ocean bottom and dumping the ore into a barge. Someone can't just come along and take the unmaned barge or its contents, that would be piracy.
3. The software does know who jeted the can as evidenced by the problems when non-oners try to stack stuff in the can.
4. I would like to be able to shoot the pritates that fire on or steal my cans. But this means that noobs have very little protection and the guy with the biggest ships have more. I don't think the Dev's want this in concord space. And they surely don't want it in 1.0 space.
5. With out using the strip mine to can to indy technique the quantity of ore needed for most CA's and certainly for BS's is not practical.
6. The small corps can't defend them selves out in 0.0 space. And if they can't defend there ore in concord space they are just going to leave the game. And I do not think this is good. It should be possible to play as a small corp.
7. Piracy of ore should be possible at some level, else how does one play as a pirate. It should be possible to play as an ore pirate, but not without risk.
8. Shooting at or placing a bounty on a pirate under the current system is pointless. As the pirate can be an alt character your shooting at which results in little loss to the pirate. And big problems for you not balanced risk.
All of these points I believe is are valid. So what should we do. It is a complex problem so I believe it calls for a complex solution. No simple fix CCP please.
So here is the Gantell solution:
This is a two tiered solution. In my solution can Piracy is defined as taking from a can that was jettisoned by a player who is not a member of your gang.
First tier in 1.0 - 0.7 space, piracy of cans or shooting at cans by non gang members is a police punishable act. ( newbies get this space )
Second tier 0.6-0.1 space Piracy of cans or shooting at cans, starts a temporay state of grace, where the owner of the cans gang can fire on the pirate for one hour. The pirate if fired on can return fire, without police intervention. Sort of a limited war, one pirate aginst the gang he stole from.( small corps and pirates get to fight it out here )
I think this solution provides balance where everyone can find a home.
I was thinking there might also be a third tier say 0.2 and 0.1 no police in the belts at all. But have not really made up my mind on that.
http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
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Abe Divine
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Posted - 2003.07.08 11:08:00 -
[18]
I am surprised no one has considered "BRANDING" them!
You could file a theft complaint with local police. Police can try to confirm or deny a theft. ( checking ingame logs to prevent abusers just abusing it )
People confirmed as thieves get branded (like wanted). This brand last's an ingame week or until they are destroyed and can be attacked without reprisels from police.
The key to this idea would be "being able to confirm through game logs." ie... cargo pod belongs to "A". "B" steals from "A" "A" makes complaint. "B" gets branded a thief by concord police and alerts the system to a thief being in. "B" sec rating is dropped 0.005.
Check would need to be made for "corp members" / "Gang Members" "sec rating"
Maybe someone can expand and explain this better than I :)
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FingerThief
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Posted - 2003.07.08 11:53:00 -
[19]
How about getting PlayerControlled police into the game instead or together with NPC police ?
They could take care of that !
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