Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.19 10:26:00 -
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 Originally by: Alowishus
Industrial corps are 100% useless. All they do is get rich. While we were in SE not one single ship that anyone in our corp lost was replaced by the alliance. We replaced every ship ourselves. The industrial corps didnÆt even offer reasonable discounts.
Then you had sucky alliance organisation. Alliances with pure PvP and pure industrial corps can and do work, but it requires clear rules of co-operation, and clear lines of enforcement
Originally by: Alowishus
Do they really think nobody in a PvP corp has PE 5 and high mining skills? PLEASE
Oh, the industrial corps know you can do it if you have to. But here's the thing - you mine because you have to. I'm sure if you had the choice, you'd be off fighting all the time. Similarly, industrial corps only fight because they have to. They would much rather sit there and mine all day. Hence, a viable alliance between the two will be one where the industrial corps and pvp corps trade their combat and mining duties. If you were in an alliance where that didn't happen, then the alliance admin sucked, not the industrial corps.
Originally by: Alowishus
And it was ironic when pirate/merc corps would set up camp in Stain Region and youÆd have two pirates camping fifteen guys in a station. Then the industrial losers would complain that the rest of the alliance was useless.
So, basically, you went running off somewhere to pick a fight, and left the industrial corp to fend for itself? And this happened regularly? No-wonder the industrialists never gave you any discounts.
Originally by: Epofhis
The main problem I see in alliances was that as a pvp'er being recalled to help "defend" the miners, whom pay me nothing and only sell me ships at a highly (in fact gross amount) of profit, well creates only disdain in my heart for them. Being told that I must repack all my ships/mods come back home, and protect some1 is not my enjoyment that I seek ingame.
Again, that sounds like the alliance organisation having problems - and both sides of the argument sound just as bad. I look at that situation from the industrialists point of view, and think: These pvp'ers are useless. Anytime someone attacks us, they're half-way across the galaxy picking a fight with someone we don't much care about. We have to hole up, or fight ourselves, because they take ages to haul their asses back here to do their job, and ***** the whole time about having to do it. Why should we give them any discounts or ships or anything when they're so useless?
Originally by: Alowishus
That's the point. Corps that aren't successful at both join alliances and leech off those that are. There is no such thing as a PvP only corp. They get their ships somewhere. But there is such thing as an industrial only corp and these corps require the protection of other corps that have zero use for them. That's the problem. One style of play is self sufficient while the other takes advantage.
Again, it's all about the co-operation and management. If you don't want industrial corps in your alliance, join an alliance that doesn't let them in. But if you are in an alliance with industrial corps, make sure that alliance administers the industry-pvp trading properly. Done well, it can be very powerful, done badly, it can destroy an alliance.
Consider a hypothetical alliance between two corps, "pvp inc" and "mining plc". Say, they both have 30 members, and have similar play times.
So, on their own, saying they had to split their time 50/50 between combat and industry, both corps would get 15 of their player units in each. Now, if they co-operate and trade, so mining plc does all the industry, and pvp inc does all the fighting, and "trade":
Mining inc needs 15 units of their fighting to stay safe. But that is only 10 units of pvp inc's fighting. Hence, even after trading, pvp inc is left with 20 units of fighting.
pvp inc needs 15 units of their industry to keep them in ships. But that is only 10 units of mining inc's industry. Hence, mining inc is left with 20 units of mining.
Hence, by allying, pvp corp gets 5 more units of fighting, and mining plc gets 5 more units of industry, than they would before the alliance.
Of course, if the organisation to allow and enforce the trading of industry and fighting isn't there, or either side is unwilling to keep to the deal, then it will fail. From what I've seen, both sides can be guilty of precipitating this. The industrialists by being greedy and holding ships etc back, and the pvp'ers by being undiciplined and not maintaining a proper guard.
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