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LordSpock
Vherokior Death Squad
9
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Posted - 2012.12.20 08:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Miranda Starborn wrote:LordSpock wrote:People are realizing that the price of iceproducts is at this level because their are bots right? This should come as no wonder, considering one need to spend insanely many mac hours mining for ice just to keep a L POS running for a year. A Large POS consumes 400 units of isotopes per hour and, if I recall it right, a cube in empire yields 300 units. That means you need to mine almost 12 thousand cubes for a year. Considering one can mine like 60 cuber per hours this will take about 200 hours to mine. Spread out over a year it means an investment of 4 hours per week. Doesn't sound that much right? However, you also need 150 Heavy water and 150 liquid ozone from the ice. One of these (don't remember which one) yield only 25 units per cube which means you need to multiply the time needed with a factor of 5. So you end up with having to mine ~20 hours per week for one L POS just to keep it running, which is equal to a half time work....Now, one can always remark'; why not use the extra 40k cubes and sell the isotopes to buy the missing fuel to reduce the mining time? That is true and many do this, however this does not mean the missing stuff will magically appears on the market; it needs to be mined as well. That said, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figured out who might be mining the majority of that stuff...
I made a calculation (love doing calculations) for fueling a Large Caldari Tower. You always have an excess of isotopes compared to the heavy water and ozone. So what my calculation is based on is actually mining the ice and selling the excess isotopes to buy all other materials to build the fuelblocks. This includes all PI materials.
If you would only depend on units of Ice, one would need (at current prices) to mine around 2450 units of ice per month on average. When you have planets doing PI for fuel as well, the need to mine this vast amount is not as high. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy
Caldari State
262
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Posted - 2012.12.30 00:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
LordSpock wrote:Miranda Starborn wrote:
A Large POS consumes 400 units of isotopes per hour and, if I recall it right, a cube in empire yields 300 units. That means you need to mine almost 12 thousand cubes for a year. Considering one can mine like 60 cuber per hours this will take about 200 hours to mine. Spread out over a year it means an investment of 4 hours per week. Doesn't sound that much right? However, you also need 150 Heavy water and 150 liquid ozone from the ice. One of these (don't remember which one) yield only 25 units per cube which means you need to multiply the time needed with a factor of 5. So you end up with having to mine ~20 hours per week for one L POS just to keep it running, which is equal to a half time work....
Now, one can always remark'; why not use the extra 40k cubes and sell the isotopes to buy the missing fuel to reduce the mining time? That is true and many do this, however this does not mean the missing stuff will magically appears on the market; it needs to be mined as well. That said, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figured out who might be mining the majority of that stuff...
I made a calculation (love doing calculations) for fueling a Large Caldari Tower. You always have an excess of isotopes compared to the heavy water and ozone. So what my calculation is based on is actually mining the ice and selling the excess isotopes to buy all other materials to build the fuelblocks. This includes all PI materials. If you would only depend on units of Ice, one would need (at current prices) to mine around 2450 units of ice per month on average. When you have planets doing PI for fuel as well, the need to mine this vast amount is not as high.
Using hisec ice as an example
If you were to calculate this out for just the Liquid ozone need (25 per block/150 per 40 block run) you get
8,760 hours in a year
350,400 blocks consumed in a year
at 25 units a block (assuming perfect refine) for LO you require1,314,000 units of LO per year
equaling 52,560 ice blocks
or 876 hours of mining at 60 blocks per hour.
which is 2.4 hours a day
or 16.8 hours a week
this is just to run one large tower. with one person mining ice. just for one tower.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Felicity Love
War-Tech Inc.
Black Core Alliance
134
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the big "POS revamp" brings -- and how it affects the isotope industry (or not).
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Grombutz
Treasures Collectors
Solar Citizens
47
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Posted - 2012.12.30 09:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Let me ask a question dear OP:
Was it hard to flush your brain down the toilett?
And now more serious:
Ice-Miners don't need bots. What is all this white-knighting about? You want to earn more with your own ice? :D |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3203
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Posted - 2012.12.30 15:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
lis scope wrote:
just a thought I had thought I might share :)
As many, many have over the past 10 years.
Only the shallow can fully know themselves. - Oscar Wilde |
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
66
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Posted - 2012.12.31 16:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
The Isotope market is effected by more than just POS fuel. I burn more Isotopes jumping a freighter in a single day than the POS will burn in a month. Null sec ice is much better for getting large amounts of LO and HW, but a ton of that is used in jump gate networks. If you look at an isk per hour basis even the best null sec ice does not equal the isk per hour of the best null sec ores. Granted you can sit in one spot and mine Dark Glitter till your blue in the face, but with the size of grav sites in null sec and the many different ores that will reap larger benefits, your still better off mining ore unless your lazy or afk/bot mining.
Ice products have never kept up with minerals in grand scheme of things in regards to mining, so I've always questioned why ice products haven't balanced out in price compared with minerals. In high sec there is no reason at all to mine ice, the isk per hour is less than half of mining ores. I know that people bot ice, I get that, but even if botting for ice, whey would you sell it so cheap? The demand is always there for those products.
I'm not really sure what you do about it. You can make ice fields deplete or even scanable, but I'm not sure that would really change the ice market in a positive direction. Ice products will become extremely expensive for a spike, people will adapt and start mining ice, then the price will drop again when the market gets flooded, and it might even balance out, but the problem with ice is that not everybody uses it. High sec dwellers have no use for ice products at all, unless they have a high sec POS, but they only need what they need for fuel, which in the grand scheme of things isn't much. In my opinion mining is mining regardless if it is ice or ore, but at the end of the day it's about what product is going to give me the best bang for my buck (isk/hour), and the ability to turn minerals into a finished product you can make a profit on will always make minerals more attractive to mine. |
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
26
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Posted - 2013.01.01 06:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:The NPCs are trying to control access to the ice in order to manipulate the market and to charge "access fees" for players to mine ice unmolested.
NPC has no need to control or manipulate the market. since they dont suffer at all any of the resources depletion consequences.
stoicfaux wrote:The NPCs should use Incursion mechanics and sleeper AI.
for such complex idea to be used i think that then they should really push for mineral depletion. and we all know it wont happen. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
658
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Posted - 2013.01.01 14:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:The Ice Fields should be guarded by NPCs. The NPCs are trying to control access to the ice in order to manipulate the market and to charge "access fees" for players to mine ice unmolested. The NPCs should use Incursion mechanics and sleeper AI
They already are, via James315 and his army of bot alts.
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