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Concern about Serpentis post-patch

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Syn Fatelyng Redanni 54	Posted - 2012.11.18 00:28:00 - [1] - Quote Serpentis dampeners are notorious for severely crippling combat capability. Missions such as The Blockade can drop a battleship's lock range to under 5k, or 10k with a scripted sensor booster. Even worse, is that unlike ECM, dampeners are a constant. There's no "lock and fire" between cycles. My usual approach is to either rely on drones for completion of those missions (Rattlesnake) or the velocity and locking speed of smaller ships (Tengu). With the upcoming AI changes, the Rattlesnake's drones will need to be recalled when aggro switches to them. This is an issue when your ship is sensor dampened, because you can not lock onto the EW ships and order your drones to reengage. In a similar note, the Tengu is seeing a much-needed adjustment to missile damage and range, thus making it a ship I'm avoiding due to how easily other ships will now outpace it. How will you be handling Serpentis Dampening post-patch, and have you found Sensor Boosters to really make that much of a difference?
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 54	Posted - 2012.11.19 11:11:00 - [2] - Quote I figure I'm about to post useless comment, but I'll do that nevertheless. I'd do that just like I did in Sansha blocade back then when I was flying pulse Abaddon (1 km optimal under TD ftw) - use AB, ram that stupid EWAR cruiser, use manual piloting to nulify angular (not needed against damps), shoot. Though there's a problem. First, Sansha elite cruisers are slow enough so you can catch up with them, but Serpentis sometimes bring EWAR frigs and you can't really catch them. Second, locking time once in range will be horrible. Another option is to warp @ 100 and shoot them from afar, but if they manage to land damp in their faloff, you're in trouble (random TD hits are still manageable, but damps won't be). Also you can try to use F.O.F.s and maybe fast ships (T3s?) to pull off that "ramming" trick. Either way it sounds like a lot of tedium for the sake of it. Sometimes moving to another space would be a better solution (if bad spirit to some).
hmskrecik TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance 29	Posted - 2012.11.19 11:38:00 - [3] - Quote I partly blame lock range arithmetic. I did test with Kronos (108km with my skills) and two range-scripted sebos and I was still reduced to 12-something km. Correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect that ship's locking range is first capped at 250km and then later dampening effect is applied. If I'm right, then there's no way you can countermeasure. Other thing is, yesterday I've run this mission and in the first spawn (initial being zeroth) I've counted 8 EWAR cruisers and until I managed to dispatch most of them I had constantly 4 to 5 dampeners on me. If it's not an overkill then I don't know what is.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 426	Posted - 2012.11.19 12:40:00 - [4] - Quote load FoF, tape down F1 and watch porn on iPad until mission complete. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Syn Fatelyng Redanni 54	Posted - 2012.11.19 15:43:00 - [5] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: load FoF, tape down F1 and watch porn on iPad until mission complete. This is not an acceptable solution. F.O.F.'s attack the nearest target. This means if the dampeners are orbiting at 40k, the wait time for F.OF.s to eventually clear everything under 40k is so long as to be ridiculous. A full volley of cruiser F.O.Fs against dampening frigates is an exercise in futility, especially interceptors. Using them against HAC elite cruisers also does not always promise a kill because of defenders + naturally high resists against a already low volley weapon. You are attempting to replace one AFK solution (drones) with another (F.O.Fs), whereas we're looking for realistic, practical solutions. Your suggestion would complete the mission slower than simply moving to a new agent. Moving to a new agent should not be a solution.
Oopsy Bear Massively Masochistic Machos 10	Posted - 2012.11.19 16:02:00 - [6] - Quote Syn Fatelyng wrote: Moving to a new agent should not be a solution. In a perfect world I would agree with you. However, my mission runner alt switched to a different faction long ago just because Serpentis damps made them slower than everything else (Guristas included). You know the situation isn't going to get better with the AI changes and your ship choice. Not leaving at this point is just you being hard headed.
Syn Fatelyng Redanni 54	Posted - 2012.11.19 16:04:00 - [7] - Quote Oopsy Bear wrote: and your ship choice. Not leaving at this point is just you being hard headed. I am completely open to alternate ships and tactics, but I don't feel "Mach ftw" should be the answer for every single pirate faction (save blood/sansha). If you have suggestions completely unrelated to the Tengu, Rattlesnake, or Mach, then I promise you'll have my full attention.
Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 96	Posted - 2012.11.19 16:35:00 - [8] - Quote Something like this completes serpentis missions pretty quickly has a great lock range and already relies on being fairly close. I have used variations on this fit for a long time serpentis blockade is around half an hour to kill everything. When not damped Null range is 8.9km+25km fall off void gives 1000dps. [Proteus, Proteus serpentis LVL 4 missions] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Centum A-Type Energized Thermic Membrane Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Large Capacitor Battery II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Corelum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Vespa II x5 Hornet II x5
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 765	Posted - 2012.11.19 18:23:00 - [9] - Quote Syn Fatelyng wrote: If you have suggestions completely unrelated to the Tengu, Rattlesnake, or Mach, then I promise you'll have my full attention. The posted Proteus looks pretty good. I've done the same thing in an Astarte. You can outrange damps (yes, really) so a Naga works. I'd assume a Rokh would do alright as well but it would have more trouble keeping range.
DaRiKavus EC Riders Secular Extremist 18	Posted - 2012.11.19 18:26:00 - [10] - Quote Have you considered using a Med shield RR ? Drones get agro then just rep them (if using sentries ofc) [Rattlesnake, Rats] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Large Shield Extender II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Large Shield Extender II Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter Drone Link Augmentor II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Large Core Defense Field Purger I Large Core Defense Field Purger I Large Core Defense Field Purger I Ogre II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warden II x5 Garde II x5
stoicfaux 1789	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:49:00 - [11] - Quote Oopsy Bear wrote: [quote=Syn Fatelyng]You know the situation isn't going to get better with the AI changes and your ship choice. Maybe, maybe not. In theory, the ewar frigates will focus on things their own size, such as your drones. The ewar cruisers will still be problematic. Since the new AI is supposed to be biased against ewar, it may be possible to carry a few ewar drones and get the ewar NPCs to switch to attacking the ewar drones. Another plan (though it is still suboptimal) is to launch some cheap t1 drones, get them aggro'd and then warp out so that the drones lose their connection, leaving the NPCS to beat on the drones. You warp back in and kill the ewar ships while they're busy killing the t1 drones. But the Real Solution is to get your faction standings high enough that you can safely decline missions multiple times in a four hour block. You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
Risien Drogonne Aliastra Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:57:00 - [12] - Quote DaRiKavus wrote: Have you considered using a Med shield RR ? Drones get agro then just rep them (if using sentries ofc) [Rattlesnake, Rats] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Large Shield Extender II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Large Shield Extender II Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter Drone Link Augmentor II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile Large Core Defense Field Purger I Large Core Defense Field Purger I Large Core Defense Field Purger I Ogre II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warden II x5 Garde II x5 How long can you actually run that repper? The rattlesnake doesn't exactly have the best cap regen. I run a similar setup (except with a second drone link instead of the repper and an AB instead of the third hardener) and the hardeners alone pretty much tap out my capacitor regen.
Syn Fatelyng Redanni 54	Posted - 2012.11.20 02:54:00 - [13] - Quote DaRiKavus wrote: Have you considered using a Med shield RR ? I have. Pointless with 5-8 dampeners on you. The lock time ends up in the minutes. I'll consider the Proteus. Thanks for the fitting and insight.
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 833	Posted - 2012.11.20 03:06:00 - [14] - Quote I never had any issues running serp missions in a tengu back when i did missions. lock range never dropped below ~30-40km which is plenty.
Syn Fatelyng Redanni 54	Posted - 2012.11.20 03:07:00 - [15] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: I never had any issues running serp missions in a tengu back when i did missions. lock range never dropped below ~30-40km which is plenty. The completion time with the upcoming Tengu is now far longer than even a t1 Megathron, as stated before I am not interested in using the Tengu post-5.1
Luscius Uta Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.20 11:04:00 - [16] - Quote I hated Serpentis version of The Blockade until I could fly a Proteus - now it's a piece of cake with subsytem which increases locking range, one sensor booster and one signal amplifier. And I recommend AB+Rails instead of MWD+Blasters (rails have quite decent damage output after Crucible, especially against Serpentis which are weakest to Kin&Therm, and with AB running, battleships will almost never hit you). Also, a Proteus kills elite cruisers much faster than any battleship.
hmskrecik TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance 29	Posted - 2012.11.20 14:31:00 - [17] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: But the Real Solution is to get your faction standings high enough that you can safely decline missions multiple times in a four hour block. This is not a solution. Blockade is in itself quite a good mission. I don't remember exact numbers but I reckon it's almost 20 mil almost doable in 20 minutes (should be within one tick if not those bloody damps). Jack Miton wrote: I never had any issues running serp missions in a tengu back when i did missions. lock range never dropped below ~30-40km which is plenty. I remember you mentioning that you stopped doing mission since quite a long time. It may be that you did it before CCP 'fixed' NPC EWAR. I hardly believe you can keep that locking range nowadays.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 427	Posted - 2012.11.20 15:02:00 - [18] - Quote last time i did serpentis blockade, my tengu was consistently taken to ~10k targeting range in wave 2 or 3. my solution was to load FoF and then burn towards the damping ships, which worked out ok. but ofc. without the damps i could've blitzed the mission much much faster. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2012.11.20 15:02:00 - [19] - Quote How about a loki? I imagine there will be other options available after the patch, err... expansion, and people get a feel for the changes. A loki can't get to the same DPS as the posted proteus or a tengu but it is still a viable option.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 427	Posted - 2012.11.20 15:29:00 - [20] - Quote erm, no. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Zalinee Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.11.20 17:27:00 - [21] - Quote Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 369	Posted - 2012.11.20 22:10:00 - [22] - Quote It kinda sucks to be told as a BS spec'd pilot that your best option against the pirate faction you encounter the most is to train a T3 cruiser. Can that proteus fit take the damage from the first room of the assault while getting close enough to deal with those cruisers? When I ran it on the test server the whole room auto agressed. Not sure if that was intended or just a bug but if it goes live like that I'll need a good tank.
hmskrecik TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance 30	Posted - 2012.11.20 22:54:00 - [23] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: It kinda sucks to be told as a BS spec'd pilot that your best option against the pirate faction you encounter the most is to train a T3 cruiser. Can that proteus fit take the damage from the first room of the assault while getting close enough to deal with those cruisers? When I ran it on the test server the whole room auto agressed. Not sure if that was intended or just a bug but if it goes live like that I'll need a good tank. Proteus easily permatanks every L4 mission. And The Assault is not a problem too, like most other missions where there are about 4 damps at most. The Blockade is pathological case.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 369	Posted - 2012.11.20 23:02:00 - [24] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: It kinda sucks to be told as a BS spec'd pilot that your best option against the pirate faction you encounter the most is to train a T3 cruiser. Can that proteus fit take the damage from the first room of the assault while getting close enough to deal with those cruisers? When I ran it on the test server the whole room auto agressed. Not sure if that was intended or just a bug but if it goes live like that I'll need a good tank. Proteus easily permatanks every L4 mission. And The Assault is not a problem too, like most other missions where there are about 4 damps at most. The Blockade is pathological case. Is that statement based on whole room aggro or just individual groups? Only issue I had in the Assault was the first room. Melted a mach I was testing rather quickly trying to get into lock range of the damp cruisers. The issue was the DPS incoming more than the damps themselves due to having to be in range of it all and not being able to aggro spawns selectively.
hmskrecik TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance 30	Posted - 2012.11.20 23:25:00 - [25] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Is that statement based on whole room aggro or just individual groups? Only issue I had in the Assault was the first room. Melted a mach I was testing rather quickly trying to get into lock range of the damp cruisers. The issue was the DPS incoming more than the damps themselves due to having to be in range of it all and not being able to aggro spawns selectively. Which one? :) The tanking statement is based on more than half a year flying Proteus and grinding missions. Though it was some time ago, long before EWAR fix. The one about The Assault is based on doing this mission in recent weeks. In Assault damps are annoying but manageable, that's my experience. If you have enough range, start by killing those cruisers. If you get aggro, tough luck, you have to charge or wait until they come to you.
Flurk Hellbron Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 162	Posted - 2012.11.21 00:05:00 - [26] - Quote Zalinee wrote: Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch. This or.... What I do: 1st alt (player) get's aggro and fly's away from NPC's, frig's follow. 2th alt (player 2) comes in and blows up frig's first, then with the two for the other ships. Works great with 2 Tengu's, but I'm sure other combinations can be found easily. Imho, the higher mission levels should be made to oblige players to work together. Flurk
goldiiee Tax and War Haven 68	Posted - 2012.11.21 00:27:00 - [27] - Quote Before I could afford a fancy ship I used a pair of 1400 Maelstroms to do blockade. Mission specific hardeners and large shield booster, DidnGÇÖt matter witch one got agro the other one would relatively easily POP the dampening cruisers, once they were dead the combined volleys made short work of the rest of the room. Next wave same thing, whichever toon got agro tanked for a few minutes and the other cleared the cruisers. I imagine the new aggression AI will make it a little more entertaining but I canGÇÖt imagine it will be too much to deal with. There is no "I" in "team." but there are 5 in "narcissistic personality disorder."
Oblivion Maximus I.RAGE 5	Posted - 2012.11.21 02:13:00 - [28] - Quote they are setting up for Raven to come back as Kind of the Hill.. Do some research... Its gonna be the next big thing in missioning.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 429	Posted - 2012.11.21 02:15:00 - [29] - Quote Zalinee wrote: Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch. the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Flurk Hellbron Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 162	Posted - 2012.11.21 02:17:00 - [30] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: Zalinee wrote: Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch. the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive. Impressive enough to run those mission sites............

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