In sum, It's a good change for ganks but its a bad change for good fights.

This change will definately boost brawling setups while kiting nano setup will get less frequent. Speed was very important in the past if you wanted to catch someone running the button. Now kiting will get hard, since it will get hard to get out of range of the brawler before he scram + webs you. At the moment I am not sure if this will be a good or a bad development. Lets wait and see.

This change will definately boost brawling setups while kiting nano setup will get less frequent. Speed was very important in the past if you wanted to catch someone running the button. Now kiting will get hard, since it will get hard to get out of range of the brawler before he scram + webs you. At the moment I am not sure if this will be a good or a bad development. Lets wait and see.

This change will definately boost brawling setups while kiting nano setup will get less frequent. Speed was very important in the past if you wanted to catch someone running the button. Now kiting will get hard, since it will get hard to get out of range of the brawler before he scram + webs you. At the moment I am not sure if this will be a good or a bad development. Lets wait and see.

[quote=Meditril]This change will definately boost brawling setups while kiting nano setup will get less frequent. Speed was very important in the past if you wanted to catch someone running the button. Now kiting will get hard, since it will get hard to get out of range of the brawler before he scram + webs you. At the moment I am not sure if this will be a good or a bad development. Lets wait and see.

it's kiting fits that go into an occupied plex to attack the occupant or defend the plex that become much riskier. or brawler fits doing the same, as you don't know how your opponent is fit. he could be ranged.

The good fighters with close range fits burned to the warp in when a potential target was on short scan anyways. The "rabbits", and the ones unsure about how many opponents will blob them will be on the other side of the timer as far away from the warp in as possible.

The good fighters with close range fits burned to the warp in when a potential target was on short scan anyways. The "rabbits", and the ones unsure about how many opponents will blob them will be on the other side of the timer as far away from the warp in as possible.

So get there first then.

It will definitely boost brawler ships that want to simultaneously run the button and camp the warpin.

It won't do much to sniper snips already in the plex though - 10km from button + 30km capture range is 40km. That's plenty far enough for a nano ship to start off at.

[quote=Schalac]what do you tell the guy that gets there 2nd? go plex somewhere else?

Bring a bait ship and call for friends? Do that enough times and the guy camping the warp in may have second thoughts.

I think this is a good change.

You can still snipe as long as you get there 1st and blasters will now have a use.

Looking forward to it.

By your own calculation, all you are doing is giving the same "home field" advantage to short range guys as has already been given to long range guys. Just sayin'

that's so obtuse i almost ignored it, as this whole thread is about the guy that gets there 2nd... but i'll bite anyway..

what do you tell the guy that gets there 2nd? go plex somewhere else?

isn't that exactly what we're trying to avoid?

By your own calculation, all you are doing is giving the same "home field" advantage to short range guys as has already been given to long range guys. Just sayin'

I fly kitey OGB ships and don't like the change because I will have to learn how to fight in scram range.

I can't wait to see your post about when your booster ships no longer get into novice small and med plexes and they need to be on grid to have an effect on you.

Technically correct, but only if you think that brawler fits should not be required to move .. ever.

Current distances are a bit excessive in minors and to a lesser extent mediums while largely OK in majors (BC up weapon ranges).
The "solution" that is being pushed does indeed sort out the excessive distances involved, but it does so by homogenizing competitive plexing fleets as you will be hard pressed to find anyone willing to go long due to it being suicidal except in cases where you are guaranteed to be 1st.

What they should have done was keep the plex differentiation to keep plexing 'fresh' (long term), that is done by keeping the current capture ranges and moving buttons closer to entry point based on something like 1.5-2.0x average range of expected/anticipated weapons ..
So a minor would probably be around 20'ish km (10km capture range which is well within reach of even the laziest brawler pilots).
Medium would be closer to 30-35km (15km ca.. see above).
Majors would be the current 40km+.

It is quite frankly a bad move that will do a lot more harm than good .. but it was likely chosen because it was easiest to do .. same button range, same capture range .. expect CCP to get a cease and desist from layers of the term "dumbing down" as they are walking all over its copyrights/trademark.

i like your idea on dynamic ranges for different plexes, and also agree how frustrating it is that CCP continues to demonstrate brilliance often, and then makes a seemingly half-baked, catch-all change like this that really affect the core of a very simple mechanic. plexing is to increase PVP....

so... you're saying if there's someone in there, you're warping in?

Can't wait to try my propless fits out in an environment that is pants on head ********.

.... this camping the warp in stuff is just too linear and dull (and predictable)

It don't matter much. FW is ****** again and will be dead soon enough with little going on as Caldari scale down and allow the Gal's to take every system.

As long as there are plexes....I will dislike them regardless of any and all changes.

Worst....mechanic....ever....

......well, now only second to the utterly stupid docking rights.....

@OP

I can see the logic in your post, but since 95% of plex runners don't want to fight in the first place I think it's a change for the better.

The changes suck because we already got rid of farming once. Now CCP, no doubt because Hans and Gallente militia (aka dev's playing for them), have brought the whole thing back and we will again see space full of farmer alts since t1 frigates can handle all but one size plex and if you pimp one enough, you can probably take them all.

Add to the fact they didnt introduce timer rollback with this patch, everything reeks of boosting their favourite militias again until they can "correct it" again when damage has been done to Amarr & Caldari, the two militias they have publicly admitted they hate (aka. CCP Soundwave)..

Fortunately we saw the crapstorm on the horizon well in advance and moved our stuff to system which is close enough to warzone but we dont have to hassle with defense plexing. CCP is hellbent on making stupid decision after stupid decision so no real surprise there.

Cearain you are a habitual whiner. The only reason they have the SINGLE rat in the plex is to make sure the ships entering the plex have weapons. Otherrwise they are exactly like what you have proposed for years - no rats. So, you got what you wanted and are still whining endlessly.

I am making the point that you and ccp seem to miss: You can change the rats however you like, but if there is no pvp, you are still just farming.

DUH. There is no fix for you (a general "you", not you specifically) not wanting to undock your ship and go look for fights.

Before the patch i would sit on the button and move into my optimal as soon as i got a ship on shortrange dscan.

Now i have to move less.

So apart from the ships allowed into plexes, nothing has changed.

Rreally? I'm curious to know how many occupied plexes have you jumped into and how it worked out.
I avoid occupied ones unless I/we have numbers for reasons stated in the OP.

There is of course the fix that I proposed in my signature for several years, and hans said he would support.

@OP

I can see the logic in your post, but since 95% of plex runners don't want to fight in the first place I think it's a change for the better.

If you are not willing to engage then bugger off and go running missions or some crap like that!

if you say something like that you clearly didn't understand what the OP wanted to say. We are here to pvp. Its still a difference between running into a camp every time you enter a plex or not.

Jumped into about 5. Died three times, won twice. Adapting.

it has nothing to do with tactics or counter tactics. What happened that something was changed what was perfectly working. Its now more boring as it was in past. You enter the plex and you know exactly what will happen. Jumping through a gate is more exciting as entering a plex since you are at least at a random point in 15k range around that gate when you decloak.

whats wrong with approaching each other in a fight?

well that's working as anticipated. lmk how you eventually adapt, assuming you just don't jump in. would like to know.

only difference now is that if someone is not paying attention while plex'ing then he is more likely to get caught.....tbh i think this may still be a legacy of the gunless farmer alt season after inferno was released. In reality I don't see it changing the actual plex fights that i have had much at all.

just read my comment a few pages before. Thats exactly what i said. The change would have been an excellent quick-fix a few weeks after inferno shipped but serves now 0 purpose since the problem does not exist anymore.

well, i haven't lost as the guy starting in a plex yet.

they jump in, and oddly, they're always right where i want them.

So what has changed from before then?

i've lost only 1x as a defender. i had a jaguar into half armor with my hookbill, when ~5 others jumped in to help.

that new camera angle is fascinating /o\

If they had actually made it so that new rat spawns every 2-3 minutes, we probably would not see so many afk plexers these days. And if somebody complains about NPC's deterring pvp now....sorry guys but new NPC's are about as much of an effort as police station full of cops is for Arnie and even if plex had 5-6 of them, I dont see it affecting pvp much at all.

Previously we could easily hold the wt progress at bay. The mechanics made defending faster than attacking and needing proper boats also put attackers at risk for pirates due to no-docking, etc.

Now it's total farmville and it does not matter if we kill enemy at ratio of 10:1. Farmers will determine the outcome again and we know which side will get 99% of the farmers due to better payout. And it's exactly what CCP and Gallente want to happen. Screw the vibrant pvp possibilities, isk will be handed to their favourite militias.

Previously wt's could put system up 10% or so during our "sleep/work hours", despite having 23/7 link alts sitting on POS with public advert "Plex this system, nao!". Now we must consider ourselves lucky if they dont put it up 30% during the same time thanks to fact everyone and their dog can again farm plexes in t1 frigates.

And before you say "get your own farmers", if other side gets 75% isk from same activity, how would we achieve this feat? If you can answer it, perhaps you can also solve Israel-Palestine conflict. Should be walk in the park compared to that one.

I always used to assume that the person in plex was right on the button so the fits i use to enter a plex haven't necessarilly changed. (they changed due to the changes in ships)

But when i was in the plex orbitting the button and I saw several people coming I used stay on the button, align to something away from warp in, and maybe get a fight if they didn't all come at once. Now I have to warp off if I see more than one on short scan because if they come, I know they are all going to jump right on top of me.


So for me its not a matter of win or lose more its a matter of getting fewer good fights.

I have jumped onto other people fighting and turned those fights into ganks. So yay more killmails, but I do prefer the old system were we had more good fights.

I always used to assume that the person in plex was right on the button so the fits i use to enter a plex haven't necessarilly changed. (they changed due to the changes in ships)

But when i was in the plex orbitting the button and I saw several people coming I used stay on the button, align to something away from warp in, and maybe get a fight if they didn't all come at once. Now I have to warp off if I see more than one on short scan because if they come, I know they are all going to jump right on top of me.


So for me its not a matter of win or lose more its a matter of getting fewer good fights.

I have jumped onto other people fighting and turned those fights into ganks. So yay more killmails, but I do prefer the old system were we had more good fights.

I really don't get the ''button changes are a nerf to kiting/fighting outnumbered'' argument....

Brawlers win 99.99% of the time against LR hulls if they get to dictate range, with me so far?

B) Because X Gallentius and Gallente wanted it so

Kiters win 99.99% of the time against Brawlers if they get to dictate range, with me so far?

It don't matter much. FW is ****** again and will be dead soon enough with little going on as Caldari scale down and allow the Gal's to take every system.

. Excuse me but where in seven hells?

the caldari still have the numbers when they want.....

Looks like your numbers are swelling with even more terribad people now that SLAPDO is back and I have to permablock Gunnyt31 as well.

SOTF deployed plexing power to Essence now.

I'm having 2nd thoughts about the warp-in change, where the plex button will be moved to 10km off the warp-in point, and would like help reconciling them. Moving it closer because people are too lazy to burn out 80km obviously isn't a good reason to change it, and after some thought I don't believe it will increase PVP either: Here's how i see it:

As it stands now, you've got a better than even shot that someone in the plex is not on the warp-in. Especially if they are offensive plexing. Even defensive plexers are often orbiting the plex button. It's much less likely they are sitting @ the entrance beacon (sitting @ zero). The new change allows a player to sit both on the plex button and @ zero. So the odds indicating where they will be located within the plex be have also changed.

Consider the following bit of game theory, where you warp to the plex gate and scan someone inside.


You are in a brawler: there are a 2 scenarios:
He is @ zero. Assuming roughly equal frigs and skills, you have a 50% shot at winning. (unless he's in a DD, no one would be stupid enough to warp into a DD sitting @ zero).

Or he's ranged, in which case you'll probably either lose, or have to warp out. Given the above 2 scenarios, if you warped in 100 times, I'd expect you to win about 35 of them (and that's generous). That's a meager 35% chance of winning.


You are range fit: there are a 2 scenarios:
He is @ zero. Assuming roughly equal frigs and skills, you will likely get wtfpwnzoredbbqstlye (especially if he's in a DD, and you're stupid enough to warp into a DD sitting @ zero). Let's call that a 10% chance of winning.

Or he's ranged. Assuming roughly equal frigs and skills, let's give you a even chance at winning. 50%. If you warped in 100 times given these last 2 scenarios, I'd expect you to win about 30 times. 30% chance of winning.


Hmmm... it's a choice between a 35% chance of winning and a 30% chance of winning. The player in the plex has too much of an informational advantage. He knows how he is fit, and will always be able to engage at his range. This advantage amounts to the "House edge". A "House edge" doesn't increase gambling, it serves to cull the population to those that are either addicted, or can afford to lose, and eventually burns everyone.

Therefore, I don't believe moving the plex button closer will increase PVP, rather I predict it will decrease PVP. Warping into an occupant is now a sucker's bet, relegated to those that aren't educated enough, yet, to know not to do it.

Based on that I would argue the plex beacon should have been moved a bit further out, left as-is, or somehow made so that a player outside on the gate may scan in to determine how far off the warp-in the occupant is.

Now, never let it be said I can't be sold the right idea. Am I thinking about this all wrong? I don't see me warping into defend or attack occupied plexes with the proposed change. Any smart player would be wise to avoid them as well. Far too little upside as I see it. Especially if there's a DD in that "novice" plex (lol of the week), they seem pretty much immune to threats unless its unfair numbers.

Brawlers win 99.99% of the time against LR hulls if they get to dictate range, with me so far?

Stuff........

You are picking at random events which dont change the fact that you can just blob everything if it does not work out first. But I quess we are striking a nerve for daring the resist you anyway, seeing how SOTF deployed plexing power to Essence now.

Still, I killed Madbuster three times today and forced him to ragelog so not entirely wasted day.

Looks like your numbers are swelling with even more terribad people now that SLAPDO is back and I have to permablock Gunnyt31 as well.

IMHO - I think you (and a lot of others) are massively over theorising it Veshta. In small gangs it makes precisely f-all difference. O/heat prop mod burn and coast out of scram/web. Profit.

Your doing it wrong. Stop text pewing and get out there.

On a much brighter note > Minnie/Amarr WZ was absolutely BUZZING this weekend. GFGFGFGFGFGFGFGFGFGFGF!!