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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 18:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 18:22:18
Please donÆt change this. The only reason I have this skill it to passive tank and a lot of other people only have it for the same reason. Not only does it make us weaker but it now means lots of us have trained a skill all the way to level 5 and itÆs now useless.
Instead of breaking so many peopleÆs setups why not add a new skill that does -2% capacitor. What are people meant to do who relay on shield recharge? YouÆre taking away our main defence skill.
Another option is making a new skill that still gives 5% recharge per level and let people who trained Shield Operation lose that skill and more there points to the new skill. Make an agent mission swap the skill.
There has to be a better option then losing 25% shield recharge.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:00:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 20:05:54
öPerhaps this is an "in addition to" change...ö
I just went on the test server and its not in addition to.
I just finish my testing and the new changes make shield tanking weaker. On the live server with the shield recharge skill I get 71.4 hp regen per second. On the test server with the new shield extenders and same ship layout and without the shield recharge skill I get 68.4 regen.
Other ships lose out more. If shield recharge stays the same but the new shield extenders are implanted then passive tanking will be just about perfectly balanced. Not to weak like it is now and not to powerful. So devs please considering leavening the shield recharge skill how it is.
The new shield extenders with the old recharge would give me 90.8 hp regen which is still less then a T2 shield booster which gives up to 120 hp regen.
EDIT: The average ship that is active shield tanked also loserÆs a fair amount of hp regen per second from the loss of the skill.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:25:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 20:30:46
ôWith that skill, sheild boosting will be MORE SUSTAINABLE than armor tankingö
Some methods for shield boosting have always been more sustainable then amor tanking but onto active setups. The new skill will make both methods of shield tanking less sustainable then what we have now.
You need to take into account the loss form the shield recharge skill even active tank setups are going to get less regen back per second with the new changeÆs. Do active shield tank setups really want to get less HP back per second just to give an extra boost or two before running out of cap? If you already have an active setup that doesnÆt run out of cap effectively you gain nothing from the skill change but lose hp regen.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:53:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 21:04:28
ôEven at it's peak it should be less than 0.5 HP/sec, and the tanking methods we're comparing here are more in hte order of 100-150 HP/second.ö
It depends on the ship but a basic ship your going be losing about 11.5 hp over 5 seconds with the change. Which adds up in a battle. ThatÆs 690 less hp regen in 1 min. Start using PDS modules which are common on shield tanks and that gaps gets worse. By basic ship I mean with no modules fitted.
Another way to look at it you regen at 100hp a sec on an active tank and donÆt run out of cap. I believe thatÆs possible. You enemy does 95dps your fine as your tank holds. New skill now takes affect you regen at under 95 hp a sec but have extra cap your tank fails and you die. When you dealing with 100 hp over 5 seconds loseing 11+ regen is a lot. Even a basic ship can pull of over 8 hp regen a sec.
Without the change a basic ship gets 40 hp regen over 5 seconds. Surely you can agree thatÆs not useless?
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.05 06:50:00 -
[5]
ôit is, cause BS can do about 1000 damage per secondö
I thought an average Raven does 300 DPS not 1000 and people say the Raven is one of the most powerful BSÆs. A scorpion does well under 300 DPS. Once you take 50% resistance off you now dealing with 150 or less if itÆs a Scorpian. Take of the natural regen with a couple of PDS modules and your down to only needing to heal 100DPS with a shield booster.
Or have I got muddle up and a Raven did 300 DPS after resistance?
Natural regen makes a big impact on how much damage you can absorb. If you have a natural regen of 10 then thatÆs like having a free large shield booster turned on for 1 boost every 5th second or something along those lines and thats without module's. It gets better with PDS modules with are common.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.05 14:55:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Pottsey on 05/05/2005 14:57:00
ôI can understand that you somehow like passive tanking for your style of gaming, but a large part of the people prefer active tanking and PvP. And I havent seen any decent passive tanking setup for PvP, cause it ruins your cap, which you really want to have running.ö
Well first there are two methods of passive tanking and 1 method boosts your cap not kills it the other methods kills you cap regen but at the same time lowers the needed cap regen so you still come out ok. But my main point is I was talking about active tanking not passive.
A typical active shield tank with PDS modules with the old skill gets around 50 hp/s (*) regen from the natural recharge. ThatÆs like having a free large T2 shield booster on all the time.
So youÆre telling me a free large T2 shield booster is useless? Personally I think 50 hp/s regen on top of a active shield booster is useful.
* 50 Hp/s give or take a bit depending on ship and active tank module layout.
ô800mm Tempest with perfect skills should be about 800 DPS
Pulse Geddon with perfect skills should be over 1000 DPSö
But how much do those ships do after taking off resistance? ItÆs not like a ship has to regen the full 800 to 1000 DPS to survive. If you have a low 50% resistance thatÆs already lowered the hitpoint regen needed to survive down to 400 to 500. DonÆt most PvP people have more then 50% resistanceÆs?
What about the PvE people donÆt they count in finding the skill useful and what about the amour tankers who took the skill to make there shields last a little longer? Then there are the people with the smaller ships some people do Curiser V Crusier e.c.t. Not everyone fights BS V BS and there is more to Eve then just PvP. I know PvP is a major part of Eve but so is PvE.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.06 07:27:00 -
[7]
ôas for natural recharge of the shields, shields divided by sield recharge time on that raven setup is 7HP/sec on the live server or 5 HP/sec on the test server so that is really not worth countingö
ThatÆs not how you work out shield regen. Its shield / Recarge * 2.5. So your getting 17.5 regen not a lot but your ship isnÆt built around natural recharge. I bet it would be a lot higher with a Power Diagnostic Modules.
ôSeriously adapt, I don't think I have met a bigger bunch of crybears!, Go play WoW or something and stop wrecking the game with useless ô
We should not need to adapt. Once you have chosen a play style and have used it for 10+ months you shouldnÆt find your self in a situation where the skills you use no longer work the same way, leaving you with 0 defence. If nothing is wrong with it, then the skills shouldnÆt get changed, the modules shouldnÆt be made use less.
WhatÆs wrecking the game is changing perfectly ok skills that no one was complaining about.
My play style and lots of other people play styles are based around shield recharge. We have spent 100Æs of millions on implants, T2 and rare named modules and based our skill training around it. So itÆs unfair to take away our main defence skill and there is no way to adapt like you say without losing all those modules and going a different path like shield boosters.
Anyone wanting this change is simplifying the game wanting everyone to go us the same tanking methods. WhatÆs next scarp amour tanking and make everyone active shield tank?
ôshut up, I want that damm change!ö
Why do you want the change so much and why do you think itÆs fair to change the skill messing so many peopleÆs setups? Surly you agree adding a new skill that does the -2% capacitor is a better option. You get your change and we all get to keep our skill everyone is happy.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.06 07:50:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Pottsey on 06/05/2005 07:53:56
I just read the dev chat and find all the referenceÆs to making combat last longer and boosting passive modules interesting. As whatÆs the point in boosting passive modules if you take out the passive module skills?
öQ19: <Daakkon> whats being done about damage vs tanking...the current damage turret ships can put out are INSANE is it thedamage mod stacking or is it the actual bonus's from the skills or the gunsthemselves?
+2-add response
<Oveur> Well, some of you might remember that EVE is supposed to be a tactical/strategic combat game, not a twitch based game, so the damageoutput is getting far too high atm
<Oveur> My personal opinion is a flat incrase to all hitpoints to begin with, but there are a myriad of corners to look into there
<Oveur> But in general terms apart from that drastic measure is, defensive modules will be getting far better relative bonus than for exampledamage affecting modules
<Oveur> also, passive modules getting a considerable boost in the upcoming patch, where plates and extenders really start to matter
<Oveur> but the reason for the insane damage is simply the myriad of ways to increase the damage
<Oveur> some are stacking nerfed, others notô
Extenders will only matter if the recharge skill is not changed. If the skill is changed a ship with the new extenders will end up weaker then what we have now with the recharge skill and combat will be even shorter so no one will use the modules.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.06 10:32:00 -
[9]
ôI might be wrong, but i think that changing the skill is a way to avoid some very good passive tanking you could achieve with the (promised) better shield extenders.ö
That crossed my mind as well so I did some testing using the new shield extenders with the old recharge rate. I got
Old skill and old extenders = 71.4 hp regen
New skill and new Extenders = 68.4 regen
Old skill with new extenders = 90.8 hp regen
Far as I can see the old skill with the new extenders would make passive tanking better but still weaker then active tanking. 90.8 seems about perfect to me as passive should be less HP regen per second then active. The advantage of passive is the 0 cap drain.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.07 08:05:00 -
[10]
ôActualy that raven is using 5 PDU 2 in low slots so not it does not get much higher on an active tank. I though that the max recharge was something like that but i could not remember for sure so i erred on the side of caution.ö
That cannot be right a basic Raven with 0 skills and 0 modules has a regen of 6 hp/s. I find it hard to believe with skills and 5 PDS modules it only has 7 hp/s, it should be well up into a 40 to 50Æs. Do you mind posting your shield hitpoints and shield recharge with the modules fitted? Do you have any modules fitted that lower shield regen or shield hitpoints?
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.07 14:50:00 -
[11]
ôI hope these numbers can help with whatever you are trying to work out. Also, u have 6 med slots left to build a passive tank. what would you use and what would the outcome be?ö
ThatÆs just the numbers I need to understand whatÆs going on. 7,887 hp with a recharge of 962sec gives you 20.49 hp/s and 36cap regen left for an active booster.
ôAlso, u have 6 med slots left to build a passive tank.ö
What I was trying to explain is the passive charge on an active shield tank setup is still pretty good. A standard Raven with 5 PDS moduleÆs has a passive charge of 20 hp/s leaving those 6 mid slots free for the active shield tank modules or further passive modules. In other words the current shield recharge skill with PDS modules is useful for both passive and active shield tanks.
Unless Active shield tankers think 20hp/s on top of shield boosters is useless.
Running out of time at the moment. I quickly glanced at the other numbers and it seems losing the Shield recharge skill means you lose 5 ish hp/s form the passive charge.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.09 06:29:00 -
[12]
öpassive shield tanking makes him cry and if anyone gives me some dmg per seonc it blah blah well you knwo what just fit a large shield booster turn it on auto repat and you will out perfrom any passive shield tank when you fit some hardners onö
Well you clearly want someone to respond since you posting the same thing more then once well all I have to say is you know full well a passive tank with shield hardeners on gets way over double to triple a large shield booster. So a large shield booster with hardeners will not outperform a passive tank. The passive tank also has over triple the hitpoints.
Now that I replied to something I shouldnÆt have. Back to active shield tanking. Balancing does not mean everything has to be the same active shield tanking should have different advantages and disadvantages to amour tanking and if both methods heal the same amount with the same cap drain then your taking variety away from Eve. I think most people agree one of the things that make Eve great is the variety and multiply ways of doing the same thing.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.09 15:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/05/2005 18:18:27
Edited by: Pottsey on 09/05/2005 20:00:33
ôHas anyone tried passive shield tanking with increased HP of shield extenders (currently on Test Server)?ö
I did a few days ago. Has anything been changed since then?
Old skill and old extenders = 71.4 hp regen
New skill and new Extenders = 68.4 regen
Old skill with new extenders = 90.8 hp regen
The above was with my current setup which isnÆt a pure HP regen setup.
EDIT: At work at the moment so the below is form memory I will edit it with the precise numbers when I get home.
The extra hit points are very nice but are partly cancelled out by the loss in regen. EDIT2: DidnÆt get chance to test my max regen ship out but I did test a cruiser.
Old skill and old shield extenders 54 hp/s
New skill and new shield extenders 54 hp/s but with more hitpoints.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.11 07:31:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/05/2005 07:32:53
ôIt's been proposed before that the 2.4 or 2.5 number might be off.ö &
öIf it is, it's possible that the higher shield cap may make this more obvious because of a greater shield recharge than expected.ö
The numbers could be off but if they are its only by 0.2 perhaps 0.4 but for sure no worse then 0.4.
Even if we are off it will not make any difference. My base Hp/s with the old skill are 28.56 with the new skill its 27.36. So as you can see it doesnÆt matter if the correct number is 2.0 or 2.8 the old skill will always end up with more regen.
For those that are still a little confused lets assume the real number is 3 way over what it could be. We get the basic regen and times it by 3 so.
Old skill 28.56 x 3 = 85.68
New skill 27.36 x 3 = 82.08
The above numbers are based around shield extenders as the extra hitpoints counter acts most of the loss form the skill. As someone else pointed out some setups are based on shield recharge modules to save powergrid and they lose out a lot. Amour tankers who took the skill for the few extra hp/s also now have a useless skill.
I just thought of another solution boost the shield extenders hitpoints by another 20%. ItÆs still unfair for the amour tankers and none extender builds that took the skill but the shield extender setups wonÆt find out they have less hp/s regen.
EDIT: When I get home tonight I will do some testing on shield recharge modules and setups without extenders. Has anyone got any testing they want me to do?
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.12 18:40:00 -
[15]
ôI'm wondering if the greater shield cap doesn't extend your curve enough that the actual total number of hitpoints you regenerate over time doesn't exceed what you get now by a significant amount.ö
Your right it does and for some ship setups the extra hitpoints are good. My cruiser benefits a lot from the extra hitpoints as the shield curve is longer so instead of 1 volley knocking me down from peak to just below peak it might take 2 or 3 volleys. Not only does my curiser not lose any shield regen but the extra hitpoints do mean it lasts longer. But my Battleship is still worse off.
It gets a little complicated to work out but if you simplify the numbers you can do it. Well you can do more complicated numbers but it take to long, I did it once before and that was enough for me.
Assuming average recharge over all the battle is 1.5x (in a real battle this number changeÆs form 0.5 to 2.5)and using the hitpoints Mayarka posted we can make a very rough guess at the length of time a ship would last.
Tranquility 5440shield / 311sec => 17.49 hp/s x 1.5 = 26.235
Singularity : 7543shield / 495sec => 15.23 hp/s x1.5 = 22.85
Now assuming the enemy was doing 100 DPS after resistance we can work out the length of time the ship will last. 100 û 26.235 = 73.76 damage leaking though the shield regen. So 5440 / 73.76 = 73.75 seconds or 1.2mins
100 û 22.85 = 77.15 damage leaking though the shield regen. So 7543 / 77.15 = 97.77 seconds or 1.6 mins
Tranquility: 73.75 seconds or 1.2mins
Singularity: 97.77 seconds or 1.6 mins
ItÆs a little more complicated then the above as if the Tranquility peak recharge is higher then Singularity and the enemy is doing less DPS then the Tranquility peak but more then the Singularity peak then the Singularity ships dies while the Tranquility ship holds. ItÆs only when the enemyÆs damage beats the peak recharge that the Singularity ship lives longer.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.17 18:17:00 -
[16]
ôI didn't bother reading alot more: my tempest with my scout 800 repeatings, would bbq anyone doing a passive tank in maybe 15-20 seconds. one your passivesheild tank hits armor, if your not aligned to warp out, you die, simple.ö
So you have a DPS of 2000 to 2500+? IsnÆt that over twice the current record?
With my lowest resistance at 50% itÆs going to take a DPS of 1809.8 to take my shields down in 15 seconds with 0 regen so I assume once you take into account regen the number goes up above 1809.
I would clearly lose as my PvP skills are rubbish but donÆt see how you could kill a passive tank in 15 to 20 seconds due to the shear amount of hitpoints.
Note:
Has anyone looked at the new hybrd setups possible on the test sever a passive tank with 1 shield booster? My Dominix has 21,977 hitpoints with a 173.8 regen when using 1 extar large T2 shield booster. But no hardeners, I wonder if the extra hitpoints make up for the lack of hardeners. You could always lower the regen to 164.3 and stick in 1 EM hardener or 1 Shield AMP.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.18 16:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Pottsey on 18/05/2005 16:03:28
öNever actully seen a passive tank on sheilds. I mean, isn't your cap nerf'd to hell and back when you passive tank, and at peak, whats the absolute hitpoints recharged in 1 second. Also, what is your resistances?ö
There are two methods of passive shield tanking one useÆs Shield relays which gives more shield regen and kills your cap regen. But at the same time you donÆt need as much cap as you donÆt have a 40cap/s drain from a large shield booster or 120 cap/s drain from an extra large booster. The other method is to use Power Diagnostic System modules which boosts your cap regen and shield hitpoints but gives less overall shield regen. You also have to take into account regen might be less then a shield booster but have extra hitpoints and someone using nos or other cap draining modules donÆt knock out your defence.
At peak my current record is 115 hp/s recharge but with no shield hardeners so I donÆt tend to use this ship layout.
Edit: I forgot to say. Both the below setups are on Dominix battleship with drones as the primary weapon and railguns as secondary weapons.
Right now I am playing around with T1 active hardeners as I decided my cap was going to waste. I could boost this a fair bit by swapping to T2 or named modules. My cap holds steady at 45%.
EM 38.35%
Explosive 75.34%
Kinetic 63.01%
Thermal 50.68%
18098 shield hitpoints and 44.3 regen. This is my new PvE setup the idea is to last long enough to kill everything. I guess if I wasnÆt so lazy I would swap in hardeners only on the resistanceÆs that the rats shoot at. Right now I boost everything.
My older setup is with passive hardeners T2.
EM 38 %
Explosive 60%
Kinetic 40%
Thermal 50%
12862 shield hitpoints and 80.79 regen.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.24 17:43:00 -
[18]
ôPottsey will be pleased... :Dö
Pleased doesnÆt cover it. My corp now has to put up with me running around our POS like a excited little kid who wonÆt shut up about passive shield tanking.
Thanks devs this is by far the best change you have done in ages and the best patch. At lest for me. Now do I post my new Hp regen record now or after the change has made its way to the live server 
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.24 19:15:00 -
[19]
The skill on the test sever has been changed back.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.24 20:57:00 -
[20]
Anyone having problems on the test server? I was trying to test the new skill and shield changes but the sentry guns refuse to shoot back at me. The billboard are perfectly happy to shoot me though, never even new they had weapons.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 06:48:00 -
[21]
The sector is Ouelletta and I tried again today. The guns still refuse to shoot back at me. Bug report sent.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 07:15:00 -
[22]
2100 for the large shield extender T2.
840 for the mid shield extender T2.
150 for the small shield extender T2.
105 for the micro shield extender T2.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.27 06:49:00 -
[23]
"just wish that the shield operation skill stayed the same and they had created a new skill to cover recharge."
The skill, has stayed the same. A new skill has been made for the -2% capacitor.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.27 11:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Pottsey on 27/05/2005 11:31:54
ôWith the skill not changing, what are the adjusted numbers to your tanks?ö
All 7 low slots and all 5 mid slots used up give me 20k ish shields and 154 hp/s no shield hardeners and my skills are at level 5 with shield implants. So I get more HP regen then an extra large shield booster T2 and I can run my setup for longer but with a far less flexible ship. Once you start adding in shield hardeners, afterburners e.c.t the HP regen drops a fair bit and I guess the active tank could fit a amp module to boost there HPÆs.
A realistic passive shield tank doesnÆt use up all their slots and tends to leave 3 mid slots for other things. When I get home I will post my regen with 3 empty mid slots.
ôWhat I was saying is I wish they had kept the 2% boost reduction on the shield oeprations skill,ö
Sorry I misunderstood.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
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