EVE Search - Missile & Launcher Overhaul

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Missile & Launcher Overhaul

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.08 13:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Vulkyn on 08/05/2005 14:01:20 Edited by: Vulkyn on 08/05/2005 13:58:37 Well ... EVE is about team work really and diversity. The idea of "adjusting" missiles is valid. And yes a group of interceptors should kill a BS!! thatÆs the whole point! You want to kill interceptors in a BS FIT IT FOR THIS JOB! You want to kill BS fit it for this job!! You never see battleships roaming alone, they are protected and supported by a force group. If youÆre smart make sure you have proper support mix with your BS in battles. Instead of complaining how your BS cant take inties, get a buddy to help!! BS are not designed to hit small fast moving targets, they are designed to pound and decimate heavy ships / structures. That by all means doesnt mean nerfing them. BS SHOULD NOT OWN fast ships / frigs! What the heck do you think destroyers / interceptors / assults / cruisers are there for ? You want to fly a BS alone, kill all ship types in your path then tough! U want to kill interceptors get a buddy in a destroyer or in an inty or fit the proper weapons / modules . Great work CCP , IÆm sure there is a lot of tweaking to be done but this will make things a lot more interesting ! And for all you level 4 runners, after the patch make sure you get some buddies in cruisers / inties / destroyers and BS inty / frig setup to get those fast nimble fighters. Who knows you might actually like the team work ! The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.08 15:15:00 - [2] Edited by: Vulkyn on 08/05/2005 15:32:12 Originally by: Grismara Edited by: Grismara on 08/05/2005 14:49:11 Originally by: Vulkyn BS are not designed to hit small fast moving targets, they are designed to pound and decimate heavy ships / structures. That by all means doesnt mean nerfing them. BS SHOULD NOT OWN fast ships / frigs! What the heck do you think destroyers / interceptors / assults / cruisers are there for ? Explain to em something, then: Why do certain strcutures mitigate my torpedo damage then so well on SISI now after the changes? And what about those MWDing Angel BS...? You know i couldn't break their tank And why do ALL other BS devastate frigs under certain circumstances? I'm talking about the concept not the implementation, which is why this thread is made and why the idea is still being tested. IÆm sure there are a lot of small things to be fixed but in general the idea is very sound. As for why BS devastates frigates, itÆs because frigates / interceptors donÆt use the right tactic. We owned a raven and a geddon with interceptors !! its all tactics. The game is very complex to generalize. Bad setup, uber skills, luck, ships, tactics etcà. all account for. And for a raven, well just fit 2 medium guns and a webber. I cant hit anything with geddon / apoc unless i have a webber or light / medium drones. Now the same Applies to a Raven, u wanna hit use faster smaller guns / use smaller faster missiles. Again the damage figures, ratio's etc.. i still in develpment. CCP will read these forums and will adjust as much as they can. There is no way in the world 2 please every one. So try to look at the brighter side and just enjoy the game. ItÆs all about team work and ship setups. I think twice before going alone in my geddon in 0.0 space, now its time raven pilots do the same ! As for agent runners, well get a friend We never do level 4 missions alone because its fun having corp members doing it together. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.08 15:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Vulkyn on 08/05/2005 15:46:20 Edited by: Vulkyn on 08/05/2005 15:42:34 Well answer me this then? 1) Why go against frigates or interceptors in a BS?? 2) Fit heavy NOS, Fit webber, Fit medium / light guns, fit drones / have escort / fit light or heavy missile launchers etc.. etc.. etc... 3) If you honestly think a Tier 2 BS is designed to take on interceptors and fast frigs u r mistaken. 4) A BS is a BS not an interceptor hunter, what a BS does poorly a 1 Mill isk destroyer does much better. 5) The game is very close to real life tactics. An aircraft carrier will get owned by subs, subs will get owned by destroyers etc... no such thing as an UBER SUB / SHIP / PLANE / everything ship. 6) Raven now has more speed and range against others BS, making them better PVP'ers but much weaker against interceptors / fast frigs. Which in truth puts them right next to BS. Welcome to the club btw 7) Well the raven has 2 slots to fit guns / NOS / etc... i suggest using them ..... So lets all enjoy this great game, yes this requires new skills / tacitcs. I was upset when mega pulses got nerfed but now, i think it was the right move. Same will apply here i hope lol The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.08 18:34:00 - [4] Edited by: Vulkyn on 08/05/2005 18:37:54 Emmm apoc annihilate frigs ??? errr well if the frig stands still at 90 km yes .... anything else will miss. Apoc / geddon canÆt shoot squat at close range if target is moving. Heck u need pretty good skills to actually track and hit a MWD NPC battleship orbiting at 9 km. The only time i ever got owned in a frigate by a geddon was in 0.0 space when failed to move vertically and headed straight towards it (which means no tracking speed involved) and got my behind blown off. Well just look at big guns tracking speed and check the turning velocity and do the mathÆs. So u want a ship that uber owns everything with no sacrifices?? I donÆt see where the problem is really. U want a BS to own BS / Cruisers / inties / frigates ???? LOL !!! come on be realistic. Wanna own inties get a destroyer. Wanna own BS get a BS simple. The only reason I posted in the thread is to share my view that this idea is good. It makes sense and in fact it balances out the game pretty well. Cruisers like carcel will do some pretty good damage and get a better range. Ravens will be much harder enemy at longer û med range and interceptors will be deadlier against pilots who think they can own pretty much anything in a raven. I read the whole thread and im mostly happy with the idea. Lets see how the tweaking goes, some work still need 2 be made though .... lots of work lol The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.08 19:20:00 - [5] Wanna own ANY BS get an inty .... yep .... unless he is properly fitted 3-4 interceptors would pretty much own any BS out there. I still have no idea why people still beleive BS are designed to hunt and kill interceptors ??? BUY A DESTROYER !!! The game is now more team based !! thumbs up !! good point EternalDark i agree The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.09 10:17:00 - [6] Lets do more tests and see how things go. BS should either tank or dish damage or balance in between. Same applies for BS fighting fast nimble fighters, you can have uber damage setup that canÆt shoot squat or you can have lower damage that does much better against those faster enemies. This in reality makes sense is what BS is all about. How it fit a good setup is the key for survival, high speed and lower damage vs low speed and high damage. Ravens although a tough nut to ***** were always disadvantaged in fleet battles due to the slow missile flight and thanks to the new patch they will be much more effective in fleet battles. The idea behind the tweak is not to give a distinct advantage for the raven to do level 4 missions alone and to enhance it vs BS in pvp combat both valid points. CCP's idea is simple balance the game and so far they have been doing a great job. EVE is by far the coolest game i have ever played and i canÆt image the amount of tweaking / work being done to make sure it runs smoothly and as fair as possible, after all we are humans and no matter how hard CCP does there will always be people complaining about something not being fair or wrong. So how about we do some more testing and add facts and figures instead of flame each other? There are people who are unhappy with the idea, there are people who are unhappy with the implementation (figures & values) some like me think itÆs a pretty good idea but still needs work. P.S. Cheer up people! What ever changes are made we will adopt, learn and blow each other up while having fun !! so lets be a bit more constructive. Oh and if u think a raven or BS are becoming useless u either donÆt know how to fly them or want them to do something they are not designed for. :) Thumbs up TomB The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 06:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 06:39:10 Would sombody please test torps / cruise missiles against other BS and cruisers ???? i have no idea why every is testing against interceptor and frigs only? Go against a BS and see how the new system works! BS is best against BS and cruisers, u get bonus to damage using large weopens not for tracking speed to hit small targets. As for med slots, all BS will have to fit painters / webbers for close engagment with fast ship. I have been using them in my geddon and apoc in both level 4 missions and PVP and yes its a trade off, Much less cap recharge for the ability to hit! (20% less cap recharge). Also lets do some test on carcel, kestler etc... dunno why every 1 is trying the raven only?? there are many other ships this changes will effect. Again the system is still under test, so lets give back more feedback. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 07:58:00 - [8] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 08:02:12 Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 08:00:56 Emmm dunno if u ever tried to tank a geddon and still fit good fire power in it. U simply cant, u either have tanker geddons or ganker geddon. The only ship that has that advantage so far is the Raven and maybe the dominix at lower damage due to its drones. Also the geddon has 3 med slots only, so i am sacreficing third of my ship's recharge and still have to run 7 mega beams, hardners and repairs not an easy task. Again no harm done to try and look at the other aspects and ships. I dont have proper torp skills to do the test, but i will give the kestral and carcel a try. great work btw Ridic, is it possible 2 add torp velocity as well ?? The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 09:46:00 - [9] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 09:49:20 Again great work!! but intercepotor will most probably out run all torps now and after the change. Im very intrested to see the same test with rocket / light / heavy and cruise rather than torps !! If some one can give me the missile statues and skills out there i can model the whole thing on excel. I already have sheets that calculate mining rate based on skills etc... and i could do the same for this test. I would however still need the % or value of damage incured based on speed and sig radius, could CCP provide this ? or does any 1 have a clue ?? The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 10:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 10:22:53 If some one can give me the missile statues and skills out there i can model the whole thing on excel. I already have sheets that calculate mining rate based on skills etc... and i could do the same for this test. I would however still need the % or value of damage incured based on speed and sig radius, could CCP provide this ? or does any 1 have a clue ?? My assumptions itÆs based on the data provided by Tomb at the beginning. If the results we are getting is not inline with the data provided then it still needs tweaking plain and simple. As for what role Raven has in 0.0 space Go to 0.0 space and see how many Ravens fly around solo and compare to any other BS and ask why they use a raven to fly solo rather than any other ship. Also please provide data on how the new patch effects Raven vs BS if possible, thats the whole point. My skills in flying a raven is pethetic so i am unable to test properly. Dunno where i claimed a Raven can run a full tank and full damage mods with full weapon outfit including guns?? But at the moment the Raven is by far the easiet ship to do level 4 missions in while tanking and dishing out damage as well I did log in and do some minor tests with carcel and kestler. Will get more data and post them as soon as i can. Finnaly no need 2 get upset about this, I marely point out my view. We might disagree but at least lets respect each others views as much as we can and try 2 be cool about it. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 10:31:00 - [11] Good point Ricdic ..... I still think the idea works well but it might need further tweaking. Maybe decrease the damage for sig radius (like make it 20% effect) and put more weight on speed. So really fast ship have a chance of survival but if they are webbed / slowed they die ..... But i have to admit the idea still sounds very promising though ..... The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 12:36:00 - [12] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 12:41:08 Grismara can u please add any data from your test? Enemy ship speed, type of missile used etc... ?? Im sure this would help dev's in adjusting tweaking. But yah if a Raven cant get passed enemy MWD NPC BS well then this is a problem (How much damage did u do per torp and type?). It is after all a BS. We really need 2 have more info on how the new sig / radius calculation is done... it will help with the testing a lot. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 12:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Originally by: Maya Rkell No dear, mass has nothing to do with missiles hitting right now. Go back and READ, this time. Thanks. I've been to SiSi. I've confirmed you're a flaming lunatic. Thanks. Next. (I made a detailed suggestion quite a few pages back which I believe would address your issues too. Read it?) Dunno if first part was aimed at me, but if so, Im fully aware of what is in atm in the calculations, but i think using mass would give us a lot less problems (if i find out how to deal with the smaller missiles as well) Could maybe just multiply the damage modifier with 2 on heavy missiles and 3 on light missiles... Hmmm i guess if u use mass u wount get mwd or target painter penatly which are both based on sig radiuse ... The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 13:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 13:17:09 Why use torps in the first place against pods / frigs? use cruise or heavy. But still a raven hitting frigs for minimal damage at close range is still better than missing and not hitting anything with turrets. Cruiser missiles bonus 2 speed means they can out run any intereceptor out there. Yes u will need 2 shoot more cruise missiles 2 kill them but they will die unless inty brakes off. Now compare this 2 apco and u can get a feel of the diffrence. Both have same drone space. Apoc will NEVER EVER hit an interceptor at close range but a raven with cruise will. Tomb's post: # hey still work the same in damage against battleships but have been improved in DPS with cruise launcher changes (listed below), but only deal average damage to cruisers & frigates # Velocity has been increased from 1600m/s to 3750m/s base, capable of 5625m/s with skills and 8438m/s with a single ship bonus). So Raven has an advantage against ALL fast ships as well maybe for less damage but they do, not with torps though (a BS weopen mainly) Lots of tweaking needed but i see were dev is going with this. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 13:25:00 - [15] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 13:27:13 Originally by: Grismara Edited by: Grismara on 10/05/2005 13:21:18 Originally by: Vulkyn Why use torps in the first place against pods / frigs? use cruise or heavy. Yep that is, what i said above: Do you honestly believe, a Raven is able to break your Apoc's tank using heavies? A raven pilot now has to dock and get out his/her Ibis or refit his/her Raven to kill that POD. And don't tell me that APoc users have to do the same. I have killed PODs (and Frigs) with the same weapons that devastated their BS. (Btw, cruise have done the same damage to PODs than Torps, iirc.) Hmm so you want the torp to blow up pods / frigs / inties. Have enough speed 2 catch them and make enough damage using torps to blow everything sky high??? Apoc with large tachyoens is useless against close frigs. If u want to kill a frig with an apoc i dock fit mediums lasers and get some tracking enhancers and maybe fit a webber. Same concept will apply to raven. U dont honestly want 1 large weopen to track small ships and make uber damage vs everything now do u ?? The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 13:43:00 - [16] Torps standing still ?? u mean pods?? Ok let me explain my view. 1) Heavy damage weapones (i.e large) should NOT hit fast ship easy. Now this is true for all races except caldari. 2) Solution is the idea of torps to miss / have reduced damage or countered in some way. 3) Missiles are very slow making them mostly useless in PVP and fleet battles. 4) Raven own all ship classes regardless of anything with 1 setup! torps and cruise missiles, unlike all other races which have 2 change setup to counter diffrent enemies (frigates, interceptors, BS etc...) Now CCP has chosen several solution to the about problems. So please lets seprate between concept and implementation so we have less problems. Should Raven hit all ships with equal success <-- Concept My raven does 0.0 damage in tranquilty to pod <-- implementation. I really hope im clear with my view. Again please put figures if possible (e.g i shot 200 torps to kill a pod) like Ricdic's posts The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 13:56:00 - [17] Its still unclear how speed plays its part in damage calculaton. If torps hits a BS using MWD would speed over shadow the large ship radius + the increased sig radius due 2 MWD or not?? If so by how much. Im willing to log in today with apoc or geddon and help test is any 1 is intrested. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 14:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Seramis Originally by: Vulkyn Hmm so you want the torp to blow up pods / frigs / inties. Have enough speed 2 catch them and make enough damage using torps to blow everything sky high??? Apoc with large tachyoens is useless against close frigs. If u want to kill a frig with an apoc i dock fit mediums lasers and get some tracking enhancers and maybe fit a webber. Same concept will apply to raven. U dont honestly want 1 large weopen to track small ships and make uber damage vs everything now do u ?? You miss some things: 1. With a Tachy on your Apoc you do full damage at long range, no matter if it's a frigg, cruiser or bs. Torpedo would do nearly no damage no matter if the frigate is at 10 or at 100km. 2. on your Apoc you have all Medium slots available, because u use an Armor fittting. So u can fit webbifier, sensor booster, ab, whatever you want on medium slots and can tank your ship very well with armor hardeners/repairer/cap power relais. A caldari ship with shield fitting needs the medium slots for their tank, and in low slots it cannot use the cap power relais (best cap recharge rate boost for low slot) because that gives penalty to shield boosting. 3. against close friggs u can use Drones/Smartbombs. So with your Tachyon-Apoc you can Tank very well, fight against targets far away with your tachyon, fight against close friggs/cruiser with drones and kill close bs with torpedos. And that all with one fitting. Be prepared for an Apoc nerf then. Apoc is a sniper so its longe range. If u use a sniper rifle at long range its very effective. Try aiming at close range looking through the sniper scope. Impossible. If you do a small calculation on Techyon and armor repair cap drain u will now why it has 4 med slots and why they are needed. Drones smartbombs can still be used by caldari as well. Both apoc and raven have same drone space. Besides Smartbombs are limited in range and will not kill further orbiting ships. Also to fit tachyoens u need 2 RCU's tech 2 with engin. skill at 5. So that leaves only 5 low slots. Apoc did get radio crystals and mega pulse nerf btw ... The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 19:31:00 - [19] Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 19:48:15 Right here is a rather VERY intresting BS test that was done by Ricdic and myself. I used an Apoc with mwd and afterburner on 2 seperate tests and Redic was in a Raven. Here is the test results. http://sonsofamun.com/Downloads/lvl4/test2.JPG Now I had a very fast Apoc setup. 7 Overdrive injectors 1 named 100 mn MWD and 100 MN tech 2 burner for the burner test with 2 cap tech 2 recharegers. I also added a damage to speed ratio to give an idea on how speed effects damage. Hope this helps. One thing is clear though A LOT of tweaking is needed !!! at 1938 m/s i took only 30.4 damage from the torp !!!! P.S Ricdic is the man behind this!! so cheers mate Also never seen an apoc out run a torp ! LOL !!!!! The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.10 22:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Woopie Edited by: Woopie on 10/05/2005 21:44:51 Originally by: Grismara Originally by: Vulkyn Edited by: Vulkyn on 10/05/2005 19:48:15 Right here is a rather VERY intresting BS test that was done by Ricdic and myself. I used an Apoc with mwd and afterburner on 2 seperate tests and Redic was in a Raven. Here is the test results. http://sonsofamun.com/Downloads/lvl4/test2.JPG Now I had a very fast Apoc setup. 7 Overdrive injectors 1 named 100 mn MWD and 100 MN tech 2 burner for the burner test with 2 cap tech 2 recharegers. I also added a damage to speed ratio to give an idea on how speed effects damage. Hope this helps. One thing is clear though A LOT of tweaking is needed !!! at 1938 m/s i took only 30.4 damage from the torp !!!! P.S Ricdic is the man behind this!! so cheers mate Also never seen an apoc out run a torp ! LOL !!!!! Yep what i told you. Easiest way to kill a Raven after the patch: Get in your apoc and MWD... Raven will not be able to hit you for more than 30ish damage, if at all. And that is with the new skills. On second thought there is one way MWD might go under penalized against missile boats when compared to turrets. There is one tactic that could be exploited and that is using MWD on turret boat to go approach a still missile boat. That gives no or very little tranversal penalties to the turret boat while the missile boat takes big hit to it's DOT. (it would be nice if some people could try actual combat on SiSi using this tactic. See if it is just a matter of the missile boat moving a bit so the turret boat misses as well, I think it will) Intresting idea 2 test Also as mentioned this is was a speed test not actuall combat. It shows the effect of speed on a BS with large sig Radius. And yes at this speed my tachyouns would not hit a station. (if i could fit them that is lol). Big radius fast speed low damage Big radius slow speed high damage Small Radius high speed very low damage small Radius low speed low damage Of course this is based on torps. Heavy missiles etc... are completly diffrent. The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.11 07:28:00 - [21] Edited by: Vulkyn on 11/05/2005 07:31:47 Raven will be like all other BS against frigs / intercepotrs unless fitted to take them out. I think this is not too bad, what worries me though is the vastly reduced damage against my apoc and the figures we posted. Not all BS will fit MWD which would kill cap, but even a bs with tech 2 burner going at 760 m/s will only sustain 77% of the damage. This means that all BS with afterburners will get a bonus tanking ability against the raven's torps. Although the idea is very good im worried about the figures. Another point is Sig radius, the test we made showed that MWD got no penalty with the added sig radius (from 400 to 2500 m) Maybe an added damage for the MWD should be added over the current torp max damage or something. Oh and i just downloaded an eve movie where 7 interceptors & frigate owned all solo ships they encountered Ravens, apocs, BC u name it !! Although the BS is a mighty ship, swarms of fast fighters is deadlier .... The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.12 06:04:00 - [22] Edited by: Vulkyn on 12/05/2005 06:23:31 Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 12/05/2005 00:34:27 Edited by: Wrayeth on 12/05/2005 00:31:47 Okay, not having the time or the peace of mind to deal with reinstalling the game in a separate location so I can download the patches for SiSi and still play on Tranquility, I'd like to ask that more battleship vs. battleship testing be done for everyone's enlightenment. Will the Raven be useful in PvP after the patch? Will it be useful in fleet battles? How does it do one-on-one vs. another battleship, an Apocalypse or Tempest,for instance, at 40km? The nerf to torpedo damage vs. a moving target worries me - a torpedo should inflict full damage on another battleship. Period. (Aside from reductions due to resists, anyway.) Even if it ends up being unable to handle level 4 missions or NPC spawns (as sounds likely), I might continue to play if it meets those three requirements above. (I'm sick of the stuff I'm enjoying getting nerfed in MMORPGs - especially when it wasn't particularly good in the first place.) Here is the test we made on BS speed http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=178109&page=34#677 The Drone Master
Vulkyn	Posted - 2005.05.12 12:14:00 - [23] You see this is why we need facts, we tested the raven against BS with different speed and modules. I tested the carcel with heavy missile launchers (But havenÆt posted results yet). The data we provide IS THE MEANS in which dev can measure and compare. Out of the 42 pages, very little data can be extracted and actually be used to evaluate the current changes and or modify if necessary. I think we should all go back read tomb's first page before we continue this thread. Again letÆs help each other out. We all want a good balanced game so lets make that our objective rather than I want to be able 2 do everything i want with out any changes. Vulk take a long breath ...... and prepares for the onslaught .... P.S Tomb we need some updates from you please The Drone Master

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.