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kieron	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:49:00 - [1] TomB has posted his new Dev Blog with information on the proposed Missile Revision and Overhaul. You can read more in the actual Blog. He has asked that discussion take place in this forum thread and not in the Blog comment section. Please post any comments directly related to the proposed Overhaul in that thread. This thread will remain open for general comment, but will not be used in the discussion on the Overhaul itself. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Skarsnik	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:55:00 - [2] Keiron, it would appear a lot of blogs being made today. Could it be the Company Vaction to Budapest helped But yay for Missile Changes - Although I'm a caldari only pilot I think the changes would be good. --------------------------------- No Slugs were harmed in the creation of this signature ---------------------------------
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Jim Steele on 04/05/2005 16:57:45 Yay two blogs for the price of one, TomB has been buisy with his nerf bat. Death to the Galante
Gungankllr	Posted - 2005.05.04 18:10:00 - [4] Edited by: Gungankllr on 04/05/2005 18:10:44 Edited, I need to read better next time www.hadean.org
Mr Stargate	Posted - 2005.05.04 18:59:00 - [5] ahh man.. a missle nerf :(
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Mr Stargate ahh man.. a missle nerf :( Dear lord selim, can you imagine HAC with these :P UBERÖ --------------------------------------------------
Asestorian	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Mr Stargate ahh man.. a missle nerf :( Actually from what is being said all it means is a raven just doesn't wtfpwn everything, it only wtfpwns BSes... Kestrals and Crows seem to be getting something out of this as well, with missiles going faster they would get even more range and even more missiles into your ship in the same time... But i'm gonna wait till these are on the test server to be tested to see what is going to be done about this i think. ----------------
Brady	Posted - 2005.05.05 08:32:00 - [8] From reading Tomb's post, I think most of the changes sound excellent (I am a missile user myself). These things should've happened along time ago. Only thing that concerns me is the speed thing. On lvl 4 missions some of the angel bs are capable of high speeds. Will torps hit them for much damage? In pvp if ya have a raven versus an apoc, what happens if the apoc fits seven overdrives (theoretically). Would the apoc become invincible?
Orc A	Posted - 2005.05.05 10:19:00 - [9] Will Interceptors still be able to dodje torps? How much faster are we talking about? 10% faster, or 100% faster? -Orky
Alyth	Posted - 2005.05.05 11:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Orc A Will Interceptors still be able to dodje torps? How much faster are we talking about? 10% faster, or 100% faster? Torp speed up from 750m/s to 1500m/s....cruise have gone insane with speeds....I LIKE!
Commoner	Posted - 2005.05.05 11:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Orc A Will Interceptors still be able to dodje torps? How much faster are we talking about? 10% faster, or 100% faster? Interceptors will be able to stand still and passively tank torps :)
Reeperman	Posted - 2005.05.05 13:00:00 - [12] At first I looked at this and thought WTF. But essentialy is good for me... I will be boosting my skills up to be back where I was today. And my Raven BPO will be running overtime producing new ships for those that don't have the skills and are getting their ases handed back to them.. Very profitable --------- Carebear and proud of it ------*---
Ishana	Posted - 2005.05.05 13:16:00 - [13] So from what i understand is that missiles are now short AND long range with the new speeds. With the new skills missiles will do EVEN MORE damage to there size class then before. (which was a bit much to begin with.) Missiles will still hit every ship class in the game. Large missiles will still OMGWTFPWN frigates unless they forget to bring target painters and the frigate isn't set for uber speed. (actually by needing a MWD and probably nanofibs, it probably negates that advantage) Lol and people call it a missile "nerf" I hate to say this because i always flown only minmatar, but i'm currently on my way to buy caldari skills.
Kerosene	Posted - 2005.05.05 15:34:00 - [14] Just a thought... At the moment, target painters don't have a stacking penalty afaik (correct me if I'm wrong, just what I was told). So will this mean every gankaraven will be stacked up with target painters in an effort to do insane damage? This is of course not to mention the fact that missile users will be able to have damage modification modules in their low and mid slots where all turret damage mods are low slot only.
Idara	Posted - 2005.05.05 17:03:00 - [15] Edited by: Idara on 05/05/2005 17:03:20 Torpraven = Blasterthron @ 90km's....yeah...that's balanced... Idara Section Leader - Security & Warfare Member of Metatron Incorporated
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.05.05 18:33:00 - [16] Doesn't look to much of a nerf to me hehe. Get new skills to increase velocity and so on. Sounds good as well balanced. I just like how my frig will take less damage muhahah! Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
sableye	Posted - 2005.05.05 19:30:00 - [17] just tested and while I do thik it sucks some change was always inevitable, but why am I only hitting stationary secure cans for 145 with torps? Ithink though you will seriously need to make the amount of cargo space missles use up considerly lower, itw as already tight before, now it takes me 100 torps or so to kill 2 npc cruisers I will run out of torps way to fast I need to be able to carry more of them, plus now that damage eve against abttleships is lower I think they need there overall damage increased and also to have defenders ect removed from game and also smartbombs should not take them out you have made them do less damage than guns its seriously unfair that people can reduce that even further now.
Alyth	Posted - 2005.05.05 19:54:00 - [18] Ravens are still the kings of short range combat. With only Caldari BS level 2 and torps level 3 I have a max range of 36km (as it should be) and damage of 33 - 37 vs NPC inties. A bit low but a lot more accurate and fairer on turret users. I need to work on my cruise skills a bit but it looks like Ravens will be switching to cruise missiles a lot more now to increase their damage vs small targets. All in all well done Devs and can't wait to test this with the new missile skills in place
dosperado	Posted - 2005.05.06 02:11:00 - [19] Edited by: dosperado on 06/05/2005 02:11:52 I just tested the new missile nerf on Singularity. If that will be introduced on tranquility I'll quit EVE and thats for sure. Never seen such a stupid nerf in the last 2 years!! ____________________ CEO Denial of Service NPC Mass Murderer \| Security Status 6.4
Hellwasp	Posted - 2005.05.06 02:36:00 - [20] all I ask is 2 things 1) plz put the skills in Tq ASAP so we can get training them 2) get the tec 2 launchers on market asap
Fuse	Posted - 2005.05.06 06:32:00 - [21] I am asking the Devs to consider defense from missiles as an option not a free gime. I think you should use point defense systems that do more damage less damage to tech 2 missiles and less damage to ships kind of like a Vulcan cannon. Defense will be an option for ships and not a free gift. This option would require less coding and allow you to concentrate on other features rather then balancing and unbalancing the entire physics of missiles. I also hope you reconsider the siege missile launcher cruise missile nerf. 0.o It's not you... no wait it is you.
Iczdog	Posted - 2005.05.06 09:43:00 - [22] Well, It seems like the insecent whinning has paid off and missiles are now being nerfed...Seems like I need to get a new game to play... O well, it was good while it lasted
lythos miralbar	Posted - 2005.05.06 11:27:00 - [23] THE ONLY THING THIS WILL NERF IS THE ABILITY OF TORPS AND CRUISE TO WTFPWN SMALL SHIPS IN ONE VOLLEY!! why cant people understand that!.. And if your target is dumb enough to switch on a mwd with 6 cruise streaking towards him at 5000 m/s + its still going to get owned!! If anything this is a missile BOOST with missile flight speeds MASSIVELY increased. We are going to get tech II launchers and such now aswell. light missiles will now be usable in frigate combat too!!.. Stop whining that you cant insta gank frigates and small targets. TURRETED BS'S WITH BIG GUNS CANT DO IT EITHER In fact missiles are STILL BETTER THAN TURRETS after ther nerf/balance/boost. At least your missiles will ALWAYS do some dammage to small targets, where as it is possible for large guns to never do any dammage to a target if it is abusing its tracking.
sableye	Posted - 2005.05.06 12:17:00 - [24] Originally by: lythos miralbar Stop whining that you cant insta gank frigates and small targets. TURRETED BS'S WITH BIG GUNS CANT DO IT EITHER I ave seen many a frig/interceptoe go down in one volley from a set of battleship guns all thats needed is distance usually, even some cruisers can do down in one volley.
Rackham LeRouge	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:35:00 - [25] I was doing lvl 4 mission in an apoc ...and ccp nerfed lasers So i jumped in a raven..and ccp nerfs missiles How about that dozens of scrambling frigs in deadspace now, and fast cruisers ?? Purhaps the final aim is to make lvl4 missions unsoloable ? I play Eve since october 2003 but in that case i'll close my two accounts for sure.
dosperado	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:04:00 - [26] Maybe this missile change "nerf" is a step forward with PvP balancing. But for all mission runners it is a step into the stone age!! So how long a Guristas Extravaganza or Angel Extravaganza lvl4 will take then (even with 2 or more players and Raven with Uber-fitting)....6 hours ..8 hours..10 hours to complete??? CCP this is totally stupid...missions are still not DYNAMIC and you are always doing the same stuff...so after the nerf I should do those boring static missions even 20 times longer??? This is a pure joke... Even with the new missile skills you will need about 10 times longer for each mission. Devs pls think about that... And btw...all freelancers and solo mission runners are doomed to hell then... just my 2 cent ____________________ CEO Denial of Service NPC Mass Murderer \| Security Status 6.4
Thyro	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:09:00 - [27] 1. Size Factored Damage: Bigger missiles are now doing less damage to smaller targets; the damage is scaled by the targets Signature Radius using a new attribute on the missile called Explosion Radius. The above is the most idiotic thing that I have seen as justification for a change. DAMAGE = NULL FACTOR INDEPENDANT OF THE SIZE OF THE TARGET. What you are trying to justify is something like... if u drop a nuclear bomb in a city u destroy building and kill all humans, pets... but ants will survice because they are small even if they get a direct impact. Now tell us how to justify this stupid idea! (Relation of DAMAGE vs SIZE of the object)
dosperado	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:11:00 - [28] Originally by: lythos miralbar THE ONLY THING THIS WILL NERF IS THE ABILITY OF TORPS AND CRUISE TO WTFPWN SMALL SHIPS IN ONE VOLLEY!! why cant people understand that!.. And if your target is dumb enough to switch on a mwd with 6 cruise streaking towards him at 5000 m/s + its still going to get owned!! If anything this is a missile BOOST with missile flight speeds MASSIVELY increased. We are going to get tech II launchers and such now aswell. light missiles will now be usable in frigate combat too!!.. Stop whining that you cant insta gank frigates and small targets. TURRETED BS'S WITH BIG GUNS CANT DO IT EITHER In fact missiles are STILL BETTER THAN TURRETS after ther nerf/balance/boost. At least your missiles will ALWAYS do some dammage to small targets, where as it is possible for large guns to never do any dammage to a target if it is abusing its tracking. Hmm..you are only talking about ganking and pvp...why you don't see both sides of the coin? Doing missions (lvl3, lvl4) is also affected...and not in a positive way...PvP will be more balanced after that nerf..that's pretty sure I think..but mission running will get TOTALLY unbalanced..and that's for sure, too ____________________ CEO Denial of Service NPC Mass Murderer \| Security Status 6.4
SinBin	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:23:00 - [29] Edited by: SinBin on 06/05/2005 14:28:38 Stupid forums lost a massive detailed post i just did. This is another lame nerf like EW no ones saying missils are wrong, the battle field tells the best story. After you fixed the tempest we had a nice mix on the field, then you nerfed amarr & scorp & the battle filed is made of ravens & tempest with a few token megas. The new skills will just be to fix the nerf like EW & I still cant jam 150km sniper & wasted loads of time that was for my t2 large guns. A tempest on a gate got my inty down to 20% stuture as i ran a gate at 6kms + he had about 2 secs to do that damage & a raven wouldnt have sratch me even with faster missles. Leave missiles alone or make fof fire on anything you have -5 standing without them agressing first & undo the mwarp nerf so we can outrun missles & not get raped by turrets as we do. The other post was better, devs you wanna get outa jove space & play eve with the rest of us then your be better informed but your die alot at first. Just add I dont fly ravens or any missle boat & I lost an inty 2 a raven via 2x fof & it gave that guy a chance to run as it should. _______________________________________ Ill shutup the day CCP remove bookmarks
Alyth	Posted - 2005.05.06 16:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Rackham LeRouge I was doing lvl 4 mission in an apoc ...and ccp nerfed lasers So i jumped in a raven..and ccp nerfs missiles How about that dozens of scrambling frigs in deadspace now, and fast cruisers ?? Purhaps the final aim is to make lvl4 missions unsoloable ? I play Eve since october 2003 but in that case i'll close my two accounts for sure. Well yes....which part of MMO says single player mission grind to you? I want harder missions, I want this change. I'm bored of being able to wtfpwn anything within 90km in my Raven. I want a CHALLENGING mission for a change.
dosperado	Posted - 2005.05.06 20:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Alyth Well yes....which part of MMO says single player mission grind to you? I want harder missions, I want this change. I'm bored of being able to wtfpwn anything within 90km in my Raven. I want a CHALLENGING mission for a change. Do lvl4 Angel Extravaganza Bonus Stage solo, then you have your challenge... Why CCP does not make lvl4 missions harder (atm they are a laugh) instead of a missile nerf? ____________________ CEO Denial of Service NPC Mass Murderer \| Security Status 6.4
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.05.07 09:46:00 - [32] Why can't CCP STOP BLOODY NERFING EVERYTHING! I appreciate that some things will need tinkering with but this utterly constant "here's the patch and here's the inevitible mega-nerf to go with it" is insane. It screams that you're either totally unable to plan ahead (despite the test server) or unable to come up with any more creative solution than reducing everythign to doing 1 dmg per shot. Anytime a weapon or tactic becomes popular, you can bet every cent you own, your house and the shirt off your back that CCP will nerf it into oblivion at the earliest opportunity. I don't fly a Raven but for god's sake, retire the nerf bat until Kai at the earliest (since it's obvious taht we'll never see the rest of Exodus). _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
Alyth	Posted - 2005.05.07 11:12:00 - [33] Originally by: dosperado Do lvl4 Angel Extravaganza Bonus Stage solo, then you have your challenge... Why CCP does not make lvl4 missions harder (atm they are a laugh) instead of a missile nerf? 1. It's still soloable, yes? 2. One mission out of dog knows how many that has the off-chance of needing a little help. Missile boats need a fix. Their weapons are vastly overpowered at short ranges, almost to the point that using anything else is stupid, but beyond that range they are useless. I wanna see sniper ravens with cruise that can do 80km in under 10 seconds. I wanna see anything else standing a chance fighting a raven (or some of the other missile boats) solo at short range. I wanna see a raven, or the other missile boats, standing a chance solo at long range. This fix brings all that in, just because you can't wtfpwn all without having tried the new skills out to boost the missiles doesn't mean they will suck. They are BALANCED.Ish.
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.05.07 14:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Alyth Originally by: dosperado Do lvl4 Angel Extravaganza Bonus Stage solo, then you have your challenge... Why CCP does not make lvl4 missions harder (atm they are a laugh) instead of a missile nerf? 1. It's still soloable, yes? 2. One mission out of dog knows how many that has the off-chance of needing a little help. Missile boats need a fix. Their weapons are vastly overpowered at short ranges, almost to the point that using anything else is stupid, but beyond that range they are useless. I wanna see sniper ravens with cruise that can do 80km in under 10 seconds. I wanna see anything else standing a chance fighting a raven (or some of the other missile boats) solo at short range. I wanna see a raven, or the other missile boats, standing a chance solo at long range. This fix brings all that in, just because you can't wtfpwn all without having tried the new skills out to boost the missiles doesn't mean they will suck. They are BALANCED.Ish. ...They are NOT balanced my dear, and will not be even with the relevant skills learned up to 4 each. Why? Because they cannot defeat Interceptors any more. I will accept they used to be 'too good' at NPC hunting in missions or belts, but the changes as proposed are at least a factor of TWO too harsh. If implemented like this, the Caldaris will be without an effective tier one or two BS... strange for the most powerful military force on the map!
pringprang	Posted - 2005.05.07 14:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Rackham LeRouge I was doing lvl 4 mission in an apoc ...and ccp nerfed lasers So i jumped in a raven..and ccp nerfs missiles Please!! Don't start using a megathron!
Xendie	Posted - 2005.05.07 15:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Alyth Originally by: Orc A Will Interceptors still be able to dodje torps? How much faster are we talking about? 10% faster, or 100% faster? Torp speed up from 750m/s to 1500m/s....cruise have gone insane with speeds....I LIKE! dont look at the travelspeed of the missile, look at the explosionradius speed a interceptor is immune to both cruisemissiles and torps with the current changes on sisi i mean 100% immune as in laugh your butt off and sit and orbit at 15k with mwd on missiles cant hit you on top of that you got the fact that a light missile does more dmg to a cruiser then a torp does. raven/scorp=recycled minerals
Xendie	Posted - 2005.05.07 15:04:00 - [37] Originally by: dosperado Maybe this missile change "nerf" is a step forward with PvP balancing. But for all mission runners it is a step into the stone age!! So how long a Guristas Extravaganza or Angel Extravaganza lvl4 will take then (even with 2 or more players and Raven with Uber-fitting)....6 hours ..8 hours..10 hours to complete??? CCP this is totally stupid...missions are still not DYNAMIC and you are always doing the same stuff...so after the nerf I should do those boring static missions even 20 times longer??? This is a pure joke... Even with the new missile skills you will need about 10 times longer for each mission. Devs pls think about that... And btw...all freelancers and solo mission runners are doomed to hell then... just my 2 cent not only that, they will need 10 times as large cargohold as they will have to shoot 10times the amount of ammo to kill anything.
Alyth	Posted - 2005.05.07 16:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Citizen Angstrom ...They are NOT balanced my dear, and will not be even with the relevant skills learned up to 4 each. Why? Because they cannot defeat Interceptors any more. I will accept they used to be 'too good' at NPC hunting in missions or belts, but the changes as proposed are at least a factor of TWO too harsh. If implemented like this, the Caldaris will be without an effective tier one or two BS... strange for the most powerful military force on the map! 1. Please don't call me 'my dear' 2. Hence the ish. They are about as effective as turrets are vs smaller craft in that they always hit but its for reduced damage when compared to the rare hits but higher damage of the turrets. They do need a bit of a boost vs small targets but only a small one. A webbed inty will still take far more damage than a non-webbed inty and light him up with a target painter, well thats just gonna plain hurt if he's webbed too.
Odessy	Posted - 2005.05.07 19:36:00 - [39] Edited by: Odessy on 07/05/2005 19:36:42 Ive got to say i dont agree with this nerf. But the idea of a point defence turret / chaff / decoy /fixed defenders would be much better imho. Torps / missiles should be targetable objects. This would depict true missile behaviour. Instead of what is being planned: Its like droping a nuke and all you had to do was get in your car to be safe. Its the same scinario, except on a bigger scale. The way all the BS nerfing is going soon a rookie ship will be able to kill a 120mil BS
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.05.07 19:49:00 - [40] Sorry, I won't say 'my dear' if you don't like it. If you came from Derbyshire, you wouldn't be so upset... Now then. I agree that we can still kill frigs with countless torps, but the problem is, CCP have set the first 'cut' of the missile nerf too high. I would be content, if pressed, to fire up to two whole salvoes of ZW-4100 launched Juggernaut torpedoes, aided by my Cross-Bolt Linked Array, and very high skills, to kill an Interceptor... ...If it goes beyond that, then I shall not get into my half billion ISK tier 2 battleship any more...
Alyth	Posted - 2005.05.07 20:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Citizen Angstrom Sorry, I won't say 'my dear' if you don't like it. If you came from Derbyshire, you wouldn't be so upset... Now then. I agree that we can still kill frigs with countless torps, but the problem is, CCP have set the first 'cut' of the missile nerf too high. I would be content, if pressed, to fire up to two whole salvoes of ZW-4100 launched Juggernaut torpedoes, aided by my Cross-Bolt Linked Array, and very high skills, to kill an Interceptor... ...If it goes beyond that, then I shall not get into my half billion ISK tier 2 battleship any more... Heh it's less that I'm offended and more that I'm a 6'4" bloke from Manchester From what TomB said it looks like cruise may be the weapon of choice now for the missile battleships. I don't have the skills to test them myself (working on it though on SiSi, 6 freaking days ) but if someone could do a torps vs cruise test vs all 3 target classes webbed, unwebbed and webbed and painted and post the results I'd be very grateful. I just checked the stats on a cruise missile on SiSi and compared them to that of a torpedo. A torpedo has both a larger explosion radius and slower explosion velocity meaning that it is only marginally useful vs anything thats not a battleship. However it does appear that even with less damage a cruise missile could be more effective vs frigates and cruisers. Again if someone could test this and get back with the details I would be much obliged.
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.05.07 22:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Alyth Originally by: Citizen Angstrom Sorry, I won't say 'my dear' if you don't like it. If you came from Derbyshire, you wouldn't be so upset... Now then. I agree that we can still kill frigs with countless torps, but the problem is, CCP have set the first 'cut' of the missile nerf too high. I would be content, if pressed, to fire up to two whole salvoes of ZW-4100 launched Juggernaut torpedoes, aided by my Cross-Bolt Linked Array, and very high skills, to kill an Interceptor... ...If it goes beyond that, then I shall not get into my half billion ISK tier 2 battleship any more... Heh it's less that I'm offended and more that I'm a 6'4" bloke from Manchester From what TomB said it looks like cruise may be the weapon of choice now for the missile battleships. I don't have the skills to test them myself (working on it though on SiSi, 6 freaking days ) but if someone could do a torps vs cruise test vs all 3 target classes webbed, unwebbed and webbed and painted and post the results I'd be very grateful. I just checked the stats on a cruise missile on SiSi and compared them to that of a torpedo. A torpedo has both a larger explosion radius and slower explosion velocity meaning that it is only marginally useful vs anything thats not a battleship. However it does appear that even with less damage a cruise missile could be more effective vs frigates and cruisers. Again if someone could test this and get back with the details I would be much obliged. Alyth... I'm sorry, I have a cold. It's just that, from behind you looked- Anyway. Thing is, as a fully paid-up Caldari torp user, I can tell you right now that Cruise Missiles are not going to work. Thing is, the current status of the nerf means that the best you get is shooting at a BS-sized target with whatever you currently have. Torps can break a tank, with skills and kit, but CM are hopeless. Fine for frigs and cruisers and so on, but hopeless for the BS threat. What I'm saying is, there is no need to analyse whether a CM fit will work against a range of BS targets post-nerf, because currently it won't. And there is no use looking at it's anti-frig capability, because if it can't beat a BS, what's the point of fitting it on the tier-2 Caldari BS? ...I mean, if the Gallente come knocking on the Caldari door again, who you gonna call... Ghostbusters? ...Hope they don't fly Caldari ships!
Trepkos	Posted - 2005.05.08 05:05:00 - [43] If what I hear is correct, crows are going to horribly imbalanced with these changes. Eventhough I do fly crows I dont wanna see them overpowered. ------------------ What can I lose? My dignity...every single inch of it.
Edania	Posted - 2005.05.08 09:19:00 - [44] From what i follow of the argument so far it seems that the extremes, light missiles and torps are the point of contention, thus this patch may actually bring back some worth to cruisers and battlecruisers in combat if medium missiles become usefull, somthing i personally am eager to see
Ordais	Posted - 2005.05.08 17:50:00 - [45] medium missiles dont become useful.....150 missiles for a 25k frig?....oh plz..... heavy missiles do the same dmg as light missile on frigs = nerved like torpedos
Maestra Jsun	Posted - 2005.05.08 23:21:00 - [46] Originally by: Asestorian Actually from what is being said all it means is a raven just doesn't wtfpwn everything, it only wtfpwns BSes... Ah yes...this new approach on missiles just adds a monumental degree of realism... Imagine..."Your F-16's Sidewinder does 0.01 damage to the Cessna" (if only it was a bigger target...that bigass missile might have actually destroyed it in one shot...) Damage should not be reduced simply because of size. A direct hit is a direct hit. If it is a small ship taking a large missile, well, it is a dead small ship. Who am I to talk such sense in the face of impending Eve-light? Carry on. kisses his Ibis Pretty soon, it will be utterly invulnerable...Bring on your "armed-to-the-teeth" BS. You and your uber massive torps can't touch meh! neener neener neeeeener. -A n00b tired of fluffy padding ________________________________________________ 0.0 Come fly with us...
Icarus Starkiller	Posted - 2005.05.09 02:51:00 - [47] IMO Missiles were never broken. They were just as they're supposed to be: Self-driven explosive payloads, just like they're supposed to be. This whole idea that a TORPEDO, a huge massive explosive payload on a slow drive, can't blow up a tiny little ship that it hits is completely idiotic. For that matter the same goes for a cruise missile, which was designed to engage small, fast targets. BIG engine, smaller payload. This new change completely defies logic, not to mention physics, making small targets almost completely unvulnerable to great big explosions. Heck, with logic like this every human should have walked out of the Twin Towers because they're too small to be hurt by 200 tons of high explosive. If any 'fix' was needed it should have been to make missiles MISS, not to castrate them. How, then, does a Raven expect to survive a rat spawn in 1.0? Death by arrogator because missles have been utterly neutered. We will adapt, we're being forced to, but this is one of the Devs' dumber ideas, really.
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.05.09 11:05:00 - [48] im sure if things become to unbalanced then it will be rebalanced. That said bringing missiles down to a reasonable level - actually allowing more counter measures against missiles would he been more acceptible ie ECM weapons, missile defenders making defender missiles work. Remember though this is just part 1 of a 3 part missile rebalancing push - next 2 pathces after this one will add further elements to missiles. Perhaps a few new all new weapons classes - making mines work again perhaps ? semi drone missile ? drones capabale of launching small missiles ? anti drone missiles oh well keep discussiong - and please illogical elements first this might have the opposite effect of getting some rational moves from CCP
I'm''Sofa''King''Ugly	Posted - 2005.05.09 12:20:00 - [49] I'm kinda new to eve but I have played many MMORPG'S. and this is nothing but a big old nerf to missles. points as follows 1. Size should have nothing to do with damage.i.e. if you hit a chicken egg with a bat it is destroyed. if you hit a ostrich egg with a bat it is destroyed. 2. from what I have gathered from the info in game about ships is that destroyers were made cause of frigs, cruisers where made cause of destroyers and battle cruisers were made cause of cruisers. and BS's were made cause of BC's. erm.. isn't this a MMORPG if the storyline says that these ships were made because of the growing fleets of the smaller ships then doesn't common sense say a BS should be able to take out any single ship under it with ease. It's kinda like saying that a MK-19 automatic grenade launcher can't do any damage to a transport vehicle but a 9mm pistol will blow it away. Not realistic at all. Just Plain common Sense CCP. You offer a product the product is EVE online a very good game. However it is supposed to be realistic and it is atm You have a perfect balance. And all the whining about which race has an advantage is boulderdash. We all created our own character. We all had the chance to train what skills we wanted to train. So if you think a ship is more uber than the other why don't you train for that ship. This is a MMORPG which means that there should be differences in which ships are better and which have an advantage. It is like Real Life You make the decisions to what direction and what abilitys you will have. So Live with your decisions or do something to change it. When you looked at the BS or the Frigate you were training for you seen the attributes for that ship. There should be no gimmes. 3. If you are going to change something it has to get better. Technology does not get worse it gets better. So find another way to balance things. 4.We all pay for a product the product clearly states its a MMORPG. So everytime you nerf something you loose the realism of the game. therefore moving away from the MMORPG base of the game and moving to change the needs of those who post and whine about there decisions. hope you get ahold on yourself before you loose your base players. You can't please everyone. So stop bothering with stuff like missles do to much damage and fix what is actually wrong with it i.e. work on the bugs such as eve mail lights up everytime i logg in with no new mails. and the hundreds of other bugs out there. don't mess with what we have fix what we don't have. "When I get off =v= I go and play Real Life
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.05.09 12:23:00 - [50] then give us rails (tech 2 ammo) with up to 100km range (just under missiles) but still capable of hitting a elite frig if one say had a MWD on baord a cruiser or battlecruiser. Might help with blowing up a few gate campers at choke points adding some risk to their gate camps before i get blown up myself and podded. More of a fine balance and a more random outcome.
ElDiablo	Posted - 2005.05.09 15:31:00 - [51] Quote: IMO Missiles were never broken. They were just as they're supposed to be: Self-driven explosive payloads, just like they're supposed to be. This whole idea that a TORPEDO, a huge massive explosive payload on a slow drive, can't blow up a tiny little ship that it hits is completely idiotic. For that matter the same goes for a cruise missile, which was designed to engage small, fast targets. BIG engine, smaller payload. This new change completely defies logic, not to mention physics, making small targets almost completely unvulnerable to great big explosions. Heck, with logic like this every human should have walked out of the Twin Towers because they're too small to be hurt by 200 tons of high explosive. If any 'fix' was needed it should have been to make missiles MISS, not to castrate them. How, then, does a Raven expect to survive a rat spawn in 1.0? Death by arrogator because missles have been utterly neutered. We will adapt, we're being forced to, but this is one of the Devs' dumber ideas, really. ------------------------------ Exactley, I personally am going to try to adapt, but to think I spent all those days training cruise to 5 and torps to 5 just makes me sick in the stomach now that they are deemed useless. This is by far the the Devs' lamer ideas......I can see me firing back up my EQ account and leaving this game unsubscribed
LOPEZ	Posted - 2005.05.09 17:56:00 - [52] OMFG..... so let me get this, if im in my car sitting still and a cruise missle hit me it doesnt completly blow me up? and if im moving full speed at 100+ kph and the cruise missles hit me it only scratches me? the reason payload weapons even explodes is because they come into contact with its target. IF it was a proximity thing then yes you should be able to out run a explosion if you are going full speend and some what survive. But in space there is no object missles run into except there targets and the main reason why frigs get hit by torps is because they get nossed or is not going fast enough in the first place, SO WTF this makes no sence what so ever, so please pull your heads out of your @$$, if you wawnt to give ceptors and frigs more chance to survive against a raven. Then make noss so that it isnt as effective on a object that is moving very fast, like turents that dont hit very hard on a small fast moving oject
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.05.09 18:46:00 - [53] Something the devs said makes me think that the effectiveness of a large missile on a small target may be proportional, to a degree, to the speed at which the target is moving. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
General Murder	Posted - 2005.05.09 19:07:00 - [54] My point of view: 1.This game is a simulation. By definition it is a abstraction of reality. 2.In reality missiles esp. large heavy missiles like torps do not autohit every target, like it is in EVE now. 3.The perfect solution would be to give missiles ship like attributes like mass, inertia, acceleration to simulate a realist behaviour. But itÆs not possible, because of lagg. So the dev have made a abstraction that allow a tolerably behaviour of missiles (Torps do not hit everything anymore!) Every abstraction of reality or physical laws leads to illogical situation. (EVE is full of this situations, as every other game!) But in my opinion the announced missiles rebalance is very good compromise. Most people that have problems with this change are the "no brainer raven solo level 4 missions torps kill everything" powergamers.
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.05.09 19:26:00 - [55] Assault launchers will now serve their original purpose. A Raven with named assault launchers and 2 heavy Nos will be a frigate's worst nightmare in PvP....just one BS could take on 4 or 5 frigs or even inties that way. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.05.09 20:09:00 - [56] Originally by: Corvus Dove Assault launchers will now serve their original purpose. A Raven with named assault launchers and 2 heavy Nos will be a frigate's worst nightmare in PvP....just one BS could take on 4 or 5 frigs or even inties that way. So? I have no problem with a BS killing, easily I might add, 3 to 4 frigates. Why should people in 1 mil isk worth of hardware be able to seriously challenge someone with 175 million worth of hardware, other things being equal? Now if you're talking larger friggie ganksquads, then that's different. I would say 6 or more frigs should pose a serious threat to a Raven or any BS. But anyway, to a degree it's irrelevant. The Raven and the Scorp will be completely gimped now and frankly I could care less because their most serious weakness has nothing to do with missiles(wherever the nerf goes or doesn't go). Their fundamental weakness is cap and the fact that cap slots compete with shield tank modules for mid slots. Take a decently and competantly setup armor tanked tier 2 BS with a few neutr on them against a Raven with stock setup and the Raven will WTF get pwnded. Modules will begin to shut down before the Raven gets halfway through armor.
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.05.09 20:22:00 - [57] what is needed is counter measure weapons or modules that make it harder for missiles to hit BS - ECM, perhaps some sort of smartbomb to fizzile missiles a % of the time based upon skill and other factors. If lag is a problem with some features get another server or upgrade existing backend equipment. Even a projectile on BS that shoots some sort of flack that can shoot down missiles or shot range counter missile interceptors - heck even drones that can intercept missiles x% of the time. Some sort of countermeasure designed to make missiles just slightly harder to use - or extend the use of some rails (low hit chance) but effective up to 100km
Derran	Posted - 2005.05.09 20:24:00 - [58] Originally by: ElDiablo Quote: IMO Missiles were never broken. They were just as they're supposed to be: Self-driven explosive payloads, just like they're supposed to be. This whole idea that a TORPEDO, a huge massive explosive payload on a slow drive, can't blow up a tiny little ship that it hits is completely idiotic. For that matter the same goes for a cruise missile, which was designed to engage small, fast targets. BIG engine, smaller payload. This new change completely defies logic, not to mention physics, making small targets almost completely unvulnerable to great big explosions. Heck, with logic like this every human should have walked out of the Twin Towers because they're too small to be hurt by 200 tons of high explosive. If any 'fix' was needed it should have been to make missiles MISS, not to castrate them. How, then, does a Raven expect to survive a rat spawn in 1.0? Death by arrogator because missles have been utterly neutered. We will adapt, we're being forced to, but this is one of the Devs' dumber ideas, really. ------------------------------ Exactley, I personally am going to try to adapt, but to think I spent all those days training cruise to 5 and torps to 5 just makes me sick in the stomach now that they are deemed useless. This is by far the the Devs' lamer ideas......I can see me firing back up my EQ account and leaving this game unsubscribed Actually, I think the point is that missiles weren't working the way they envisioned them to work as so they are adjusting it to what was originally planned. Most software never works once it is in the hands of users, who find ways to work around or abuse it. And this should also be looked at it from the other side of the coin. You are Joe-newbie is flying along in his interceptor alone. Big-bad 2year veteran like me (happy eve b-day to me, btw, 2 years this month) comes along, and thinks 'I don't like you', and launches a full spread of cruise missiles. With my caldari BS skill at 5, my cruise missiles go at 2240 m/s. So unless he has a MWD, he can't possibly defend against that so he's toast unless he reacts quickly and warps out before those speady missiles hit him. Chances are he is dead. The same is true of torps but even with only a AB, you can probably outrun them no matter who you are unlike cruise missiles. It sucks to be a newb but that happens and it isn't quite fair and really true to the way Eve was planned if you ask me. It is better to think of the missile change as a way to put them to come close to turret functionality. While turrets can often do the same thing to smaller ships that missiles can, missiles also have a much slower rate of refire than most turrets do and have a fair chance of missile small targets when it is a large turret. Missiles hit 100% unless speed is a factor regardless of the target's range, unlike turrets, and do consistant damage. No glancing or excellent hits. The whole formula used for hits is non-existant for missiles so you got to do something for making them on par when they are one race's primary weapon. I'm fully trained on all Caldari ships up to Level 5 and have all missile skills up to almost 5 (Torps is 5 already) but I won't be shedding any tears or quitting because now my ship is no longer king of the castle. Anyone happen to remember when they said L4 missions would not be possible to do alone when they first came out? I sure do. Well guess what? I do them alone all the time and I can sleep through most of them. I'd rather not be doing the grind all the time. Heaven forbid they should make it, you know, not easy anymore. The only concern I see about small ships is that you can't take them out on L4 missions as easily which goes with what I just stated, they weren't supposed to be able to be done alone anyway. Well, that was the original intent anyway, people just found something to work around it and have been doing that for awhile. For against player pilots in interceptors and frigates, well, it would take one player's interceptor a very, very long time to even come close to even scratching a battleship's shields if that battleship pilot wasn't a complete imbecile. If I wanted to be able to throw the beat down on every single thing that crossed my path and do it alone, I'd go join WoW, become a level 60 character, and go pick on stuff much lower level than me, both NPC and PC. But I am not going to do that because I got bored of the grind. That game lasted about 2 months for me.
Trepkos	Posted - 2005.05.09 21:15:00 - [59] I see where CCP is going with this, the raven battleship was the only battleship able to counter frigates. But now we will balance the game so that our 60mil - 150mil pieces of equipment will be completely useless vs. ships that costs 100k-15mil....I love the logic and balance in this idea. ------------------ What can I lose? My dignity...every single inch of it.
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.05.10 11:37:00 - [60] well i hope to see a gallente battlecruisre capable now of having at least one missile slot on board. How about a peice of equip that is racial specific that boosts the range of rails up to 110km. Dont think it will happen but a thought. Dunno we need a compeltley new weapon type to fill the void that seems to be misisng here as well as new counter missile measures
Pablos Ine	Posted - 2005.05.10 12:31:00 - [61] Why fix what was'nt broken, sure make it harder to hit a frig.. but a hit is a hit.. why would a torp do less damage when it scores a hit ? Seems like CCP are trying to make the game easier for noobs. Doesnt matter what race you are, all weapons will eventually be the same.
Devious Kain	Posted - 2005.05.10 17:03:00 - [62] Hey, I'm not too big on talking on forums but this topic has me very worried. I've played for 2 yrs now and have never seen such an idiotic nerf. Currently on the test server it is almost impossible to kill interceptors and assaut frigs with missles. However turrets at range own any frig/cruiser. I think the bigger issue is the time it takes to learn turrets and be effective compared to missles. And yes the raven is pretty mean 1vs1. But at range 70km+ any turret user with decent skills can take on a raven. Torps take too long to travel the distance compared to the damage over time by turrets. Right now you can warp in 90km from a gate and kills frigs/cruiser b4 they can warp, however the raven must be closer. As for the new missle upgrade/nerf i think that the devs are doing a great job trying to balance the game but with the new assault frigs/cruisers battleships are becoming less common pvp ships. Battleships are supposed to be these huge ships of massive firepower but are getting killed by 2-3 assault cruisers? In my opinion they need to revamp the hitpoits/damage of lrg turrets/missles to compliment this. But for a quick fix a point defence turret would be great. Kinda like what you see in movie and whatnot, big ships have all this firepower but no small turrets for defence? Dosn't seem practical to me. I would like to see a turret class that can only be equiped on BS and only one can be equiped that is uncontrolable by the pilot but automatically fires on frig size ships that are attacking it. This turret would fired on more than one ship very rapidly but not cause significant dmg unless the ship was only under attack by 1-2 frigs. I just think it is a little unrealistic that battleships have no way to defend themselves vs frigs. Or perhaps if drones really were able to do dmg to frigs it would be nice for a chang. But 1 cruiser and 3 frigs should not be able to destroy a BS in my opinion. Anyhow hope you guys like my ideas or at least expand on them, and if you have your own ideas I would like to read them on this forum. In my opinion I don't think the devs wanted this to be negative forum but a look at how the players feel about the change and possibly get ideas on how to make it better. Thx
Trepkos	Posted - 2005.05.10 20:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Devious Kain Hey, I'm not too big on talking on forums but this topic has me very worried. I've played for 2 yrs now and have never seen such an idiotic nerf. Currently on the test server it is almost impossible to kill interceptors and assaut frigs with missles. However turrets at range own any frig/cruiser. I think the bigger issue is the time it takes to learn turrets and be effective compared to missles. And yes the raven is pretty mean 1vs1. But at range 70km+ any turret user with decent skills can take on a raven. Torps take too long to travel the distance compared to the damage over time by turrets. Right now you can warp in 90km from a gate and kills frigs/cruiser b4 they can warp, however the raven must be closer. As for the new missle upgrade/nerf i think that the devs are doing a great job trying to balance the game but with the new assault frigs/cruisers battleships are becoming less common pvp ships. Battleships are supposed to be these huge ships of massive firepower but are getting killed by 2-3 assault cruisers? In my opinion they need to revamp the hitpoits/damage of lrg turrets/missles to compliment this. But for a quick fix a point defence turret would be great. Kinda like what you see in movie and whatnot, big ships have all this firepower but no small turrets for defence? Dosn't seem practical to me. I would like to see a turret class that can only be equiped on BS and only one can be equiped that is uncontrolable by the pilot but automatically fires on frig size ships that are attacking it. This turret would fired on more than one ship very rapidly but not cause significant dmg unless the ship was only under attack by 1-2 frigs. I just think it is a little unrealistic that battleships have no way to defend themselves vs frigs. Or perhaps if drones really were able to do dmg to frigs it would be nice for a chang. But 1 cruiser and 3 frigs should not be able to destroy a BS in my opinion. Anyhow hope you guys like my ideas or at least expand on them, and if you have your own ideas I would like to read them on this forum. In my opinion I don't think the devs wanted this to be negative forum but a look at how the players feel about the change and possibly get ideas on how to make it better. Thx Ever thought of looking at CCP for a job? I actually see logic in your ideas. ------------------ What can I lose? My dignity...every single inch of it.
General Murder	Posted - 2005.05.10 21:24:00 - [64] Ah the old argument that stuff that is more expensive (ISK-wise) should auto-own every smaller (cheaper) stuff, because it is ôlogicalö or realistic. From a point of view of the game balance and the ôrealisticö argument this is argument is wrong. 1.The real world is full of examples when big, expansive BS, the proud of their nations, where badly damaged or destroyed by smaller stuff (planes, subs) which where much cheaper (1/10000 of the costs) in costs and manpower. (e.g. BS Prince of Wales) 2.The Dev. want a more tactical (last Dev-Chat) game play with mixed fleets. Nothing is more boring in a MMORP when every one and its dog use the same uber ship (class), characters, equipment etc. Therefore the BS must be really expensive and the lose of one should hurt the wallet of the player or the BS must have some weak points against certain weapons or ship classes. 3.The most precious resource in EVE is not ISK, Minerals.. Its the players. On player can only fly one ship! If CCP (and I too)! want mixed fleet, there must be some reasons for a corp of e.g. 5 member, if they have the choice between all ships classes, not to choose 5 BS but to choose a mixed tactical flexible force. 4. The ISK argument is also weak as almost every player is able to earn the 150 mil in 1-2 months (normal equipment) to buy that BS and insurance it. After that point a loss of a BS donÆt hurt much. (I had 5 BS!) In addition a player can earn even more ISK at this stage of the game. 5. A lone Frig has not the firepower to destroy a BS, so i realy dont understand the concern here. A BS cannot hit them, a lone frig cannot destroy the BS. Whats is the problem? 6. Assualt frigs or heavy assault need much more skill points to fly compare to an BS. A loss of an heavy assualt is relay a loss for the players wallet (as a BS loss should be). You need much more time and expensive tech II componets to build an heavy assault so why shouldnt they not possess the same firepower as a BS? 7. No defense? A heavy NOS and weber still own every frig, interceptor and cruiser. If a BS pilot has some problems with frigs? Get a buddy with a frig or destroyer to give you protection. This is how it works in the "realy world"
Gan Howorth	Posted - 2005.05.10 22:15:00 - [65] Word! times seven.
Azrael Maxim	Posted - 2005.05.11 04:10:00 - [66] Originally by: General Murder Most people that have problems with this change are the "no brainer raven solo level 4 missions torps kill everything" powergamers. Indeed, the problem though is that its a lot of people, and all those people actually enjoy to play that way, as do I. I just like to make lots of isk and pimp out my navy raven with expensive stuff :) I dont feel like pvp I avoid 0.0 with a reason i dont like it there. This game is/was absolute bliss for me as long as I can do my own thing, do lvl 4 missions make lots of isk buy expensive stuff. Basicly what this nerf is gonna come down to is that I wont be able to enjoy my way of playing eve anymore. The bone ccp has thrown to us will be taken away, leaving me wondering what Iam gonna do. For now I am ignoring the fact that the nerf is coming up and making a few bill before its there. Call it a whine call it a rant, but it for sure is the truth.
Antic	Posted - 2005.05.11 06:39:00 - [67] As changes currently stand on Sisi its riskfree for intys cruisers AND battleships to go full MWD straight at the raven. Its even good tactics to do so cus teh increased speed means ravens torpedos or cruise only do 10 to 30 damage each. Even to battleships. While said battleship goes MWDing towards hte raven he will get max hits with his turrets on the raven. The raven will die. No way to avoid it as new missiles dosnt take transversal/tracking into account its just a straight down cut in damage. Divbombing ravens will mean PVPing in a raven is even more useless now. Theres so amny new ways to avoid a ravens damage from missiles now that its hard for even a n00b to not accidentaly use one of them. In PvE the NPC that use MWDs dosnt even get a sig bloom. So it dosnt matter how fast they move towards you, your missiles still only do 10 to 30 damage. You will need a full cargohold of torps or cruise to even get rid of the npc friggs. But to do more than 0.1 damage to said NPCs you will need a web and a painter fitter wich means you need to cripple your ravens tank. leaving only 4 slots for a tank. So the chance that you survive long enough to fire said cargohold of missiles is pretty much null. on Sisi 2 750k rats is even prooving to be too much. Cruise dosnt break their tank for staters and dont get me started on torps. This is with the new skills. So no the current system is far from balanced as it stands so i hope CCP works harder on making it work. There has been several good suggestions in the module forum thread, especialy one from Tul'Kas (page 35 or so) where you could add a simple trigonometric calc onto the explosion radius of the missile meaning if someone goes straight at the missile he takes more damage than if he tires to move away from it. I hope CCP tests good suggs like that.
muttley	Posted - 2005.05.11 17:42:00 - [68] does this mean that my pod is now invulnerable to missiles
muttley	Posted - 2005.05.11 17:43:00 - [69] Originally by: muttley does this mean that my pod is now invulnerable to missiles in guns we trust
Takrolimus	Posted - 2005.05.11 23:38:00 - [70] I get so angry reading this thread. OBVIOUSLY THE NUMBERS ARNT SET IN STONE. IF ITS NOT WORKING YET, THE NUMBERS WILL BE TWEAKED The point is, Missles WERE broken: They raped all smaller than a BS instantly, NOTHING could kill a raven short of BSs. This is unfair on the other BSs. ONLY a raven can solo ALL Agent missions, no other BS can. That is the DEFINITION of unbalanced. Furthermore, Ravens were USELESS at long range. This fix sorts out both of those problems. I have no doubt that when the fix is finished, it will take 3 or so volleys of cruise to kill a frig. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? In a turret ship YOU CANNOT kill a frig closer than 25km away. The whine at the end of the day comes down to this: Ravens were overpowered, SO EVERY LAST AGENTRUNNER flys one. Tell me this isnt true: Why are there so many ravens if they arnt overpowered? Now all these peopel who have gone with the flavour of the month are ****ed, because they cant make 30m an hour soloing lev4s anymore, despite the fact that the changes WILL balance ravens with the other classes. (although they havnt tweaked the numbers yet). Adapt, team up, or find some new way of doing it, or failing that: Go play a single player game with god mode on.
Azrael Maxim	Posted - 2005.05.12 03:47:00 - [71] Heheh , you could use an angry management course. Id say take it easy get yourself blown up in pvp a couple of times, have fun. Indeed the numbers arent set in stone yet why do you think so many many people are posting about it. Maybe they will go with the flow think about all those people that enjoy doing lvl 4 misions maybe not, who knows? We shall see.
Admiral Pieg	Posted - 2005.05.12 03:51:00 - [72] Originally by: Takrolimus I get so angry reading this thread. OBVIOUSLY THE NUMBERS ARNT SET IN STONE. IF ITS NOT WORKING YET, THE NUMBERS WILL BE TWEAKED The point is, Missles WERE broken: They raped all smaller than a BS instantly, NOTHING could kill a raven short of BSs. This is unfair on the other BSs. ONLY a raven can solo ALL Agent missions, no other BS can. That is the DEFINITION of unbalanced. Furthermore, Ravens were USELESS at long range. This fix sorts out both of those problems. I have no doubt that when the fix is finished, it will take 3 or so volleys of cruise to kill a frig. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? In a turret ship YOU CANNOT kill a frig closer than 25km away. The whine at the end of the day comes down to this: Ravens were overpowered, SO EVERY LAST AGENTRUNNER flys one. Tell me this isnt true: Why are there so many ravens if they arnt overpowered? Now all these peopel who have gone with the flavour of the month are ****ed, because they cant make 30m an hour soloing lev4s anymore, despite the fact that the changes WILL balance ravens with the other classes. (although they havnt tweaked the numbers yet). Adapt, team up, or find some new way of doing it, or failing that: Go play a single player game with god mode on. what he said ______________________ Pod from above.
Azrael Maxim	Posted - 2005.05.12 04:41:00 - [73] Edited by: Azrael Maxim on 12/05/2005 11:37:50 Okay seriously, to the guys who get really angry because of people voicing their concerns about the upcoming missile nerf. In what way have raven driving lvl 4 mission running people ever hampered your game ?How exactly did they manage to make your game less fun ? Iam really curious, you have given me your opinion on missiles why they need to be changed etc, but that doesnt explain what exactly makes you so angry ? I like lvl 4 missions its what I do most of the time. What do you guys do most of the time in eve ?
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.05.12 11:38:00 - [74] Hey goto the a2 gate camp going down into delve and go up against up to 20 ravens at the busiest time - get youreself podded and a BS smashed in 10 seconds - its all fun = hey if ravens are left as king of the hill (no missile defenses aer put in place as a counter balance) then perhaps lets see more caldareri spaceship skills given a reduction to get more players into ravens and then things will balance out if everyone has one this is a balance overall. That said i like the idea of enhancing the in depth details more skills class and veolcity basis in the next patch. Perhaps some ship defenses for us poor gallente ie anti missile weapons i know smartbombs can knock missiles out (so carry a smartbomb if youre running a PVP gate camp) then youll blow those missiles before they can touch you.
Takrolimus	Posted - 2005.05.12 13:46:00 - [75] Quote: Edited by: Azrael Maxim on 12/05/2005 11:37:50 Okay seriously, to the guys who get really angry because of people voicing their concerns about the upcoming missile nerf. In what way have raven driving lvl 4 mission running people ever hampered your game ?How exactly did they manage to make your game less fun ? Iam really curious, you have given me your opinion on missiles why they need to be changed etc, but that doesnt explain what exactly makes you so angry ? I like lvl 4 missions its what I do most of the time. What do you guys do most of the time in eve ? -Inflation: More than half the isk enterring the game is from aqgent missions and bounties associated with them. Prices are rising due to this. -Undercutting of POS/High end miners: You can get all the high ends you need refining loot / rewards from lev 4 agents: This keeps high end prices lower than market equilibrium would otherwise be and kills 0.0 mining. Until recently, Components also dropped ***** the POS market. -Differentiated Wealth structure. To anyone who has been running lev 4s for a while, a billion isk, while not inconsiderable, is not a ridiculous sum. EVERYONE else on the other hand, requires an inordinant amount of luck or risk to make anything close that much isk. This means prices for rare mods are ridiculous and only get bought by agent runners or people with agent runner alts. -Exodus from 0.0 space. CCP has admitted this one. Pre-Shiva, there were TWICE as many people in 0.0. Dont blame it on chokepoints and all that **, because thats not the point: Look at alliances like XETIC that pre-shiva had 2000 people in 0.0 out of 4000. When we attacked it was more like 200. Why? Cos everyone went back to Rens. -Anyone who didnt fly a raven was massively outpowered by a Raven pilot when PvEing. This is shown by the fact that 90% of agent runners fly ravens. So thats my arguement against agent missions, but They arnt the ONLY thing affected by the missle changes. THE MISSLE CHANGES ARE ESSENTIAL FOR BALANCING PVP. - Missles own all ships smaller than BS, including HACs (which cost, effectively, a lot more). Guns dont. - Missles are useless in long range PvP. This fix, if the numbers are correct, will sort everything. You want your cake, and you want to eat it to. You want to have minimal risk, maximum reward, and to be the richest in the game. This game isnt "Agents in space" any more than it is "gank in space". IT HAS TO BE BALANCED ACROSS THE BOARD.
Degarion Soth	Posted - 2005.05.12 15:28:00 - [76] Well said.
Ezri	Posted - 2005.05.12 16:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Admiral Pieg Originally by: Takrolimus I get so angry reading this thread. OBVIOUSLY THE NUMBERS ARNT SET IN STONE. IF ITS NOT WORKING YET, THE NUMBERS WILL BE TWEAKED The point is, Missles WERE broken: They raped all smaller than a BS instantly, NOTHING could kill a raven short of BSs. This is unfair on the other BSs. ONLY a raven can solo ALL Agent missions, no other BS can. That is the DEFINITION of unbalanced. Furthermore, Ravens were USELESS at long range. This fix sorts out both of those problems. I have no doubt that when the fix is finished, it will take 3 or so volleys of cruise to kill a frig. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? In a turret ship YOU CANNOT kill a frig closer than 25km away. The whine at the end of the day comes down to this: Ravens were overpowered, SO EVERY LAST AGENTRUNNER flys one. Tell me this isnt true: Why are there so many ravens if they arnt overpowered? Now all these peopel who have gone with the flavour of the month are ****ed, because they cant make 30m an hour soloing lev4s anymore, despite the fact that the changes WILL balance ravens with the other classes. (although they havnt tweaked the numbers yet). Adapt, team up, or find some new way of doing it, or failing that: Go play a single player game with god mode on. what he said Agreed. And for all those people complaining it's illogical for an interceptor to outrun a missile blast - I disagree: Your flying your interceptor, say (just for example) 500m/s. You then get hit by a missile, point blank. The Missile has a blast radius of say 500 metres. The Missile takes a half of a second to blow upon impact. The Interceptor has safely outrun more than half of the blast from the missile - therefor it would endure muchly reduced damage. That's the way I see it anyway. Ez.
Antic	Posted - 2005.05.12 19:33:00 - [78] Nerfing missiles or lvl 4 missions wont get you more people to 0.0 (or rather, more targets wich is the reason people want an exodus to 0.0). That will never happen with forced tactics. People rather quit than feel forced to go to 0.0. Instead if you want your exodus you need to make people _want_ to go there. And moving all the isk income sources there does not count as a "want" due to no safety or infrastructure. To improve the environment in 0.0, Make it less of a c3w1 d3wd pvp arena and more of an actual player empire where theres more stuff to do than get ganked by bored pvpers having hardons for killmails. All battleships can solo lvl 4 missions. Raven is popular due to how missiles work against small targets now on TQ. it can do it easier and with less skill training. So to claim that its the only battleship that can is a complete lie. After this missile change it will be totaly unable to do even lvl 3 missions. But all other BS still can solo lvl 4s. Of course you dont care, so im wasting my breath here, but go to sisi and try for yourself. People npchunting in 0.0 and selling their loot on escrow in empire sets a majority of the so called inflated prices. So dont go blaim mission runners in empire. For many casual gamers in eve, missions _is_ eve. Not everyone have 10 hours straight a day to brave gatecamps to 0.0, get escorts from corpmates whos online once every blue moon etc. There is no dedicated system for promoting grouping in eve like for example the one in Anarchy Online, so finding a group when you go online isnt easy. And due to no grouping mechanics it would be hard to find one you could trust even if there were people available. Mining veldspar in yulai isnt apealing to everyone. But why do i even try? im training amarr battleships now. So by the time the nerf hits i can go gank ravens easily solo just by exploiting the new missile system with my MWD.
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.05.12 23:56:00 - [79] Originally by: Antic Nerfing missiles or lvl 4 missions wont get you more people to 0.0 (or rather, more targets wich is the reason people want an exodus to 0.0). That will never happen with forced tactics. People rather quit than feel forced to go to 0.0. Instead if you want your exodus you need to make people _want_ to go there. And moving all the isk income sources there does not count as a "want" due to no safety or infrastructure. To improve the environment in 0.0, Make it less of a c3w1 d3wd pvp arena and more of an actual player empire where theres more stuff to do than get ganked by bored pvpers having hardons for killmails. All battleships can solo lvl 4 missions. Raven is popular due to how missiles work against small targets now on TQ. it can do it easier and with less skill training. So to claim that its the only battleship that can is a complete lie. After this missile change it will be totaly unable to do even lvl 3 missions. But all other BS still can solo lvl 4s. Of course you dont care, so im wasting my breath here, but go to sisi and try for yourself. People npchunting in 0.0 and selling their loot on escrow in empire sets a majority of the so called inflated prices. So dont go blaim mission runners in empire. For many casual gamers in eve, missions _is_ eve. Not everyone have 10 hours straight a day to brave gatecamps to 0.0, get escorts from corpmates whos online once every blue moon etc. There is no dedicated system for promoting grouping in eve like for example the one in Anarchy Online, so finding a group when you go online isnt easy. And due to no grouping mechanics it would be hard to find one you could trust even if there were people available. Mining veldspar in yulai isnt apealing to everyone. But why do i even try? im training amarr battleships now. So by the time the nerf hits i can go gank ravens easily solo just by exploiting the new missile system with my MWD. seconded, they all really just what more targets to shoot at, too bad it probably wont happen. sigh, why couldnt they just have made lvl 4 harder instead of nerfing missles, i feel like thats what it comes down to. wonders how he will kill frigs now without having his setup 0wned this here's mah sig': My Quote: "You can call me a carebear all you want, but your still an arrogant slimeball"
Silver Bird	Posted - 2005.05.13 00:01:00 - [80] To all those saying anyone who does not like the missile changes as porposed are just lame caldari agent runners please rethink that idea. Missiles do kill anything smaller then the ship shooting them way to easly, that is a given. The main problem people have the the missile overhaul as it stands now is the crude brutish way it has been implemented. A stright across the board damage nerf agenst smaller ships. As the overhaul stands now missiles are nothing but a 4th turret that has delayed damage and you can stop them from hitting you altogether. They have moved even more to a mindless sprey and pray becuase their incressed speed granties that they will hit the target %100, if not killed by a defender or a smart bomb, there is no out running them there is no outsmarting them there is no brain power required at all. The best to fix missiles would be to make missiles behave in a way that is similer to real life missiles or torpedos on some level. The way I would say to make missiles behave would to give them some sort of tracking restriction. Now it has been trived before with missile agility and they failed to get that workingm, but since when has anything good come to those that gave up trying to achive their goal? We would all still be in the dark if Good Ol'Tom gave up after his frist attemp at making a light bulb. Why not try something simple like once a second the radial velcity of the target to the missile is calculated and if it is beyond what the missile is capable of handeling the missile would have a chance of losing its lock on the target and missing. Missiles that miss you say? yeah that sounds like what happens in missile or torpedo combat in real life. Notice I said nothing of missile agility in this idea. Making missile miss is the best solution to the missile problem we have today, any other solution is just going to cause more problems then its worth, as can be attested to by loggin into the test server, which I have, and actually testing these changes. Many have been kind enough to post their results and all show the same thing, these changes are bad becuase Its makes missiles into a gimped 4th turret and competely elimiates the uniqueness of missiles. Please CCP do not release this change to tranquility. P.S to those of you who would accuss me of being a raven loving lvl 4 agent runner let me tell you most of my skills rest in frigate, assault frigates, and interceptors, and I have tried 1 lvl 4 mission since they came out and that was with 4 other people, so I'm as much in favor of fixing missiles as the next guy But not at the expense of losing any uniquness missils had left.
Captain Blight	Posted - 2005.05.13 01:45:00 - [81] I disagree for to the changes for mostly the same reasons and most other people, so i wont get into them again. A lot of people enjoy running lvl 4 missions (myself included) because that's where i find the fun in the game. I think the potential missile change makes them next to useless, (and GOD forbid inty/assault frig tacklers have a weakness, god forbid they cant destroy everything.) Then i was sitting here trying to think of what i would do if the missile nerf hit. I dont like mining or trading, i dont have skills and funds yet to pvp, the only thing i really enjoy is mission running. So not to grief about it, but really what would i do? Nothing fun for me so why would i play? So i was trying to come up with a few potential balancing things about missiles. The first one i came up with is maybe just tone the damage on all missiles like 10% or whatever you guys would deam "balancing" most battleships can fit siege launchers, so use missile as a way to stop tacklers, (its the way now). So the raven is a good tacklers stopper, good, so maybe they hav to avoid them and just destroy everything else. The second one i came up with was to impliment a little bit better missile defence system, that way people who really want to kill ravens in pvp or such can fit to do so. The third one i came up with would be to add new skills in and tone missile a bit but add the skills in to make up the difference, IE make torps do 600 or something and have a skill to make them get faster like... lvl 4 would put them back at the normal 750 and lvl 5 would put them at 800 or something. Also give missiles a chance to miss, not a big one but a chance to miss dependant on the size of the ship they are firing at. like you have a 95% chance to hit a battleship but only a 50% change to hit a frig, and even less like 20% chance to hit a MWDing frig. Then implement a skill that gives your missiles like a 25% better chance to hit, maybe target painting or a completely new skill. Anyway those are my 2 cents, please dont take the one thing i enjoy doing in this game ( agent running ) and leave me with nothing i really enjoy. Blight
Origins	Posted - 2005.05.13 01:49:00 - [82] I've been testing the missiles for serveral days now.. My only real concern is that rogue drones are suddenly demi-gods :)
Specops	Posted - 2005.05.13 06:18:00 - [83] Its nice to see you Devs are working on missles but there is something I must say. With these changes missles will be more and more like turrets. It seems to me missles work in a different way but have similiar factors to consider. The problem I belive is missles are losing there uniqueness. These changes are nice and all but it looks like you guys are trying to balance a turret class as oppose to something different. Missles should be unqiue and completly the oppostie situationally from turrets or else another turret is what is essentially being made here. ~Specops~
OdinPrime	Posted - 2005.05.13 16:07:00 - [84] I agree with Capt. Blight a much better salution would be missel defence, like jammers or Chaff. Jyro destabelizers, Guiedence disrupters to jam, or drop metal chaff or plasma for them heat seakers.
Freyett	Posted - 2005.05.14 11:29:00 - [85] Edited by: Freyett on 14/05/2005 11:29:23 Biggest problem i have with the patch is that if i web or nos a frig so he moves slow i still have a degree of chance to hit a frig with a turret, but if i web the hell out of a frig now missles still do crap for dmg.
Bohoba	Posted - 2005.05.15 14:41:00 - [86] I think the inability to switch from torpedo's to FOF is going to shut down the raven could make FOF torps then :) with skill of coarse when the patch comes out Anybody want to buy a raven 150 mill :) Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
LOPEZ	Posted - 2005.05.15 14:43:00 - [87] ok ok lets take thing from a pvp piont of view.. most scorp pilots not dont fly scorps, only the few who planed ahead and can now jam 3 4 bs with on scorp cuz of their high skills, personly i never flew the scorp. It was always raven of mega for me. and ever since the patch i only fly my raven for npc hunting or the odd chance i feal like flying my raven into pvp. But since the mega is now the new uber bs i fly it more cuz it more enjoyable and requires more skills to be very good at it (tech 2 blaster ) . Now then if you havent noticed.. Its all about GANK GANK GANK, and n0o0ooo0o tank. the only bs you need to tank to have a chance to survive is the raven, i mean its not like you can setup a gank setup with no defence and expect to own a bs 1 on 1 its just no going to happen. and most pilots jump at the chance to face a raven 1 on 1 cuz they know for a fact there gank turent ship with own a raven before its first set of torps hit you. now then.. not only is a raven now the cannon fodder of a fleet but its also useless against frigs... WTS RAVEN and get a second mega , i mean if a ceptor moving at high speed gets only glazed by a torp because it got nossed, then ima get a 30k scrambler fit it on my hawk and go out and WTF onw a raven alone cuz a normal noss only goes about 20 k and with 30k scramb i can stay out of range and shoot it to death
LOPEZ	Posted - 2005.05.15 15:20:00 - [88] lol omg. i cant load fofs nor cruise missles in my siege launchers.. maybe this wouldnt be a bad thing if there was a thing called fof torps.. good one ccp
Shut up	Posted - 2005.05.15 22:13:00 - [89] Just remove all missiles from the game and give all ships nothing but turret slots. Problem solved all the way around. BTW. I love my Raven.
Zandramus	Posted - 2005.05.16 16:21:00 - [90] Edited by: Zandramus on 16/05/2005 16:23:09 this change to missiles is nothing but a very heavy nerf. It is an affront to all Caldari pilots in the game. Missiles are not turrets and shouldnt be made to be the same as turrets. Missiles and turrets do differing types of damage and the attempt to make missiles like turrets are wrong. You are basically taking everyone who has trained Caldari in the game and telling them now you have to train these extra skills so that you ship does less damage than it does at the moment with no skills. these are also high level skills that people are saying are similar to gunnery skills, but Caldari pilots now have to train both fields. so now I need 7 mil sp in gunnery and 5 mil skillpoints in missiles to get decent damage. Ravens while not great pvp ships atm had their uses in anti frigate defense and electronic warfare. by changing the way missiles work you have eliminated the need for any Caldari missile boats in fleet combat. Turret ships at least can have wrecking shots, missiles cannot. I can still kill a Crow in 1 shot with a Sniperpoc if he is MWD away from me at optimal, a Raven now can not do this. as a matter of fact a turret assult frig outside of nos range with a named scrambler will kill a Raven now by himself. You should not be able to kill a capitol ship with frigates , how this ever got so screwed up in this game I dont know BS cost 10 times what a frig costs to build , why should 1-2 frigs be able to kill one. Zandramus Parking Violations Officer Geminate Division S.A.S
Johnny Zed	Posted - 2005.05.16 22:28:00 - [91] Sorry if this idea has already been mentioned. Just an idea, maybe a half baked one, but, if you are going to use sig for the determining factor why not do sig = chance to hit. IE the smaller the sig the less chance to hit with a missile. But when a missile does hit it hits for the full damage. Maybe tie sig in with some skills as well. The better a ships agility the smaller its sig. Simulating a pilot being able to out manuever a missile.
Recluse XXX	Posted - 2005.05.17 00:16:00 - [92] Originally by: Bohoba I think the inability to switch from torpedo's to FOF is going to shut down the raven could make FOF torps then :) with skill of coarse when the patch comes out Anybody want to buy a raven 150 mill :) FoF:s are useless anyways...if u get a Raven jammed. Lets say that u are in an ubergankscuad consisting of 3 Tristans, u just sick 6 Warriors on the helpless Raven and laugh yourself silly as his FoF:s tryes to hit the fast litte buggers. Now, whit the changes FoF:s (as all the other missiles) will travel faster, actually hitting these pesky warriors and wtfpwn them for 0.0 damage... All this talk about an "anti-missile" module is kinda strange cus it allready exist one...they are called "jammers"....They work on a Raven aswell as on a Geddon...and if u sick your heavy drones on the Raven guess what the FoF:s will chase while the Geddon eats thru your ship like a fat kid at MacD.... I love my Raven, I think that these changes are good(in a PvP point of veiw)I truly feel sorry for all the agent runners that now actually have to be at their comp when they do missions. So, I have to gimp my tank a bit to fit a webber and a targetpainter, so what...when I fly in a fleetbattle in my Mega I dont have any tank at all like most insta dmg ships these days. And to sum it up, I thougt it was funny to passivetank 2 torp Ravens on SiSi in a Harpy :P //Rec -
Bohoba	Posted - 2005.05.17 11:34:00 - [93] Edited by: Bohoba on 17/05/2005 11:35:24 Originally by: Recluse XXX Originally by: Bohoba I think the inability to switch from torpedo's to FOF is going to shut down the raven could make FOF torps then :) with skill of coarse when the patch comes out Anybody want to buy a raven 150 mill :) FoF:s are useless anyways...if u get a Raven jammed. Lets say that u are in an ubergankscuad consisting of 3 Tristans, u just sick 6 Warriors on the helpless Raven and laugh yourself silly as his FoF:s tryes to hit the fast litte buggers. Now, whit the changes FoF:s (as all the other missiles) will travel faster, actually hitting these pesky warriors and wtfpwn them for 0.0 damage... All this talk about an "anti-missile" module is kinda strange cus it allready exist one...they are called "jammers"....They work on a Raven aswell as on a Geddon...and if u sick your heavy drones on the Raven guess what the FoF:s will chase while the Geddon eats thru your ship like a fat kid at MacD.... I love my Raven, I think that these changes are good(in a PvP point of veiw)I truly feel sorry for all the agent runners that now actually have to be at their comp when they do missions. So, I have to gimp my tank a bit to fit a webber and a targetpainter, so what...when I fly in a fleetbattle in my Mega I dont have any tank at all like most insta dmg ships these days. And to sum it up, I thougt it was funny to passivetank 2 torp Ravens on SiSi in a Harpy :P //Rec - Funny although I have heard of this I have never had this happen to me :) probably cause I usually get ganked by 3-5 geddons lol A lone Raven ..... Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
assclown	Posted - 2005.05.17 11:51:00 - [94] Edited by: assclown on 17/05/2005 12:01:23 Originally by: I'm''Sofa''King''Ugly I'm kinda new to eve but I have played many MMORPG'S. and this is nothing but a big old nerf to missles. points as follows 1. Size should have nothing to do with damage.i.e. if you hit a chicken egg with a bat it is destroyed. if you hit a ostrich egg with a bat it is destroyed. 2. from what I have gathered from the info in game about ships is that destroyers were made cause of frigs, cruisers where made cause of destroyers and battle cruisers were made cause of cruisers. and BS's were made cause of BC's. erm.. isn't this a MMORPG if the storyline says that these ships were made because of the growing fleets of the smaller ships then doesn't common sense say a BS should be able to take out any single ship under it with ease. It's kinda like saying that a MK-19 automatic grenade launcher can't do any damage to a transport vehicle but a 9mm pistol will blow it away. Not realistic at all. Just Plain common Sense CCP. You offer a product the product is EVE online a very good game. However it is supposed to be realistic and it is atm You have a perfect balance. And all the whining about which race has an advantage is boulderdash. We all created our own character. We all had the chance to train what skills we wanted to train. So if you think a ship is more uber than the other why don't you train for that ship. This is a MMORPG which means that there should be differences in which ships are better and which have an advantage. It is like Real Life You make the decisions to what direction and what abilitys you will have. So Live with your decisions or do something to change it. When you looked at the BS or the Frigate you were training for you seen the attributes for that ship. There should be no gimmes. 3. If you are going to change something it has to get better. Technology does not get worse it gets better. So find another way to balance things. 4.We all pay for a product the product clearly states its a MMORPG. So everytime you nerf something you loose the realism of the game. therefore moving away from the MMORPG base of the game and moving to change the needs of those who post and whine about there decisions. hope you get ahold on yourself before you loose your base players. You can't please everyone. So stop bothering with stuff like missles do to much damage and fix what is actually wrong with it i.e. work on the bugs such as eve mail lights up everytime i logg in with no new mails. and the hundreds of other bugs out there. don't mess with what we have fix what we don't have. "When I get off =v= I go and play Real Life I agree these other pilots knew what they were training for Caldari pilots shouldn't have to pay for making the most logical decision. However unlike popular believe the Raven already is a useless pvp ship. And this is just a scam doesn't even classify as a nerf. We paid money to aquire skills that offer an effect in game. Now if CCP goes through with this.They should give us our money back ,or our investment in these skills i.e. Time isk spent to gain them. Its not ok to let someone pay for a product and then alter the outcome of the product. CCP don't forget this is a business. I have tested the Missles on SISI and it takes a 75% decrease in the productivity of the skills that have been aquired. This is not acceptable You need to come up with a more reasonable solution. And I won't be surprised if this gets edited cause god forbid that we act like customers. Plain and simple either make it more reasonable or loose customers. CCP you have done a great job so far don't push us away.And for those that think oh your just whining think if it was your money and time invested getting flushed. Thats all I have to say before I loose my cool.
Shemaul	Posted - 2005.05.17 14:23:00 - [95] I never put a word in theese kind of post when the discussion was about turret. Why people that NEVER use missiles keep talking about this nerf, telling is a good thing, that is not a nerf and so on? Why people don't understand that some things said here are absolutely nonsense? People that say: "interceptor like crow gain great advantage by new missile system". Awesome...did they miss to read that standard missile now have double powergrid needs and rocket is 4 times more than before? Try to fit a crow with 3 Standard and tell us if the fitting is still competitive as before. People that say "Before Raven can blast everything" are maybe the Uber turret users that refuse to fit an assault launcher with defender cause they love to make 800hp damage with each cannon and they want to use all highslot with lasers? Wanna talk about the new sniper mode lasers, allowing an apoc to make insta damage from 150KM killing everything that warp at a stargate in less than 0.5 S.S.? As u can see turrets still do lot of things that missiles never do, before or after this nerf. I can say that maybe this nerf will change stuff. I cans ay that not all of the news are crap. But to read turret users to say "allelujah" just because they love to hear missile nerfing, thinking that now they are again the gods of damage is a bit sad.
Antic	Posted - 2005.05.17 16:00:00 - [96] Edited by: Antic on 17/05/2005 16:07:49 Amen shemaul. This considering that turret ships with missile slots can fit assault/heavy launchers in their spare misisle slots to have an effecitve anti NPC frigg/inty/cru weapon on the side of their 6 main turrets for large targets. This means that turret ships has a very high diversity in wich launcher and missile type they choose for those 2 spare slots depending on the job they wanna do. However pure misisle ships like raven do not have this flexibility. Because their launcher slots already are their anti large target slots. There is no gun thats effective against npc intys or friggates at short range. Wich is why turret ships are fitting launchers instead of small turrets for anti small ship combat in the first place. But said missile ships can not do this due to lack of launcher slots without having to remove launchers from their main anti BS weapon setup, crippling their ability to break NPC BS tanks. something turret ships do not have to do. Let me add that NOS is a waste of a slot for PvE. Draining cap on NPCs dosnt affect their capabilities and tests have shown that the Nos will only get you cap for about one cycle then nothing. Finaly a point that i find very remarkable. Why do turret user people keep telling us missile ship pilots who understandably have low gunnery skills, to fit small guns for anti frigg combat, when they themselves, who have very much higher skills in gunnery than us, are fitting assault or heavy launchers to deal with small ships? anyone else who have a problem with seeing reason in this? Because where i live thats called hypocricy.
Kraven Kor	Posted - 2005.05.17 18:30:00 - [97] It really should not be so complex. First off, all missiles are EXPLOSIVE devices. They should all do explosive + whatever damage, say half & half, except for current explosive missiles which would do explosive damage entirely. Secondly, MISSILES CAN MISS. Each missile class should have a "manueverability" rating, rockets and torpedoes having the lowest manueverability, light missiles the best, with heavy and cruise in the middle. Rockets: Should work equally well damage wise on any ship, but should be low manueverability and short range. Best DPS that a frigate can hope for with missiles. Like real rockets. T2 Rockets should simply add guidance and allow for multiple damage types (1/3 each of three types instead of 1/2 each of two types.) Light Missiles: Anti-Frigate. Fastest guided missile, no ship should be able to outrun them. T2 adds multiple damage types and maybe "shield penetration" or just extra dmg / speed or something. Should remain short range. Lower damage vs. cruisers and above, though still capable of being used vs. any ship. Heavy Missiles: Anti-Cruiser. No cruiser should be able to outrun, though fast frigates can. Medium Range. Best damage vs. cruiser, less vs. frigs or bs. Cruise Missiles: Anti-cruiser/bs. Frigates should have little trouble out-running or at least out-manuevering cruise missiles. Best damage vs. cruiser or bs, less vs. frigates but again still dangerous to them. Torps: Strictly Anti-BS or Station. Very low manueverability, low speed, insane range. No BS should be able to outrun torps but even a cruiser should have little trouble doing so. TORPS SHOULD HAVE AE or "SPLASH" DAMAGE -- yes, we know it can cause problems, but they are essentially tactical nukes. There should be multiple varieties that offer larger damage and "splash" radius right along with it, making torps difficult to use safely. Best damage vs. bs or larger, reduced damage vs. cruiser or smaller, but still dangerous to them, even if only the "splash" hits. However, any ship sitting still should take FULL DAMAGE from ANY MISSILE that hits it. Size and speed should maybe play a part in the damage calculation, but not the primary role. Missiles should also have a chance to miss (a low chance) and that chance should be affected by the optimal / max range -- rockets should be like blasters, but torpedoes should actually miss more at short range than long range. Finally, there must be multiple options for defense vs. missiles. High Slot point defense turrets (in all three turret varieties, and made so that gunnery skills help improve their performance), defenders (and there should be defender rockets that best handle small missiles, and defender missiles that best handle larger missiles), and chaff/decoys as well (mid or high slot.) Plus, of course, the smart bomb option. As an aside, there should be an "evasive manuevers" option for pilots, where the ship becomes harder to hit but also applies penalties to your own weapons or modules. A frigate doing "evasive manuevers" should be immune to all but light missiles or rockets, where a BS doing the same would be hard for torps or large turrets to hit. Cliff notes: 1. All missiles should do explosive + whatever damage. 2. Missiles should be able to be outmanuevered / outran, based on missile type vs. target type. 3. Rockets = steady short-range dps vs. all ships, limited manueverability, can be avoided. 4. Light Missiles = vs. frigates primarily. Best speed and manueverability, limited range, less damage vs. large targets. 5. Heavy Missiles = vs. cruisers. Medium range, speed, manueverability. Less damage vs. bs or frigates, best vs. cruisers / bc's. 6. Cruise Missiles = vs. cruisers/bs. Long range, high speed, medium manueverability. Best vs. cruiser to bs range, less vs. frigates / destroyers. 7. Torps = vs. bs / station only. Frigates should have no problem avoiding them, nor should fast/agile cruisers. They should do best damage vs. bs or larger objects, and less to cruisers or smaller, but still be dangerous. SPLASH DAMAGE even if it will make them difficult to use. 8. Any stationary object should take full damage from any missile that hits it. 9. There must be multiple options for missile defense, see the paragraph above for details. Point defense, chaff, decoys, multiple types of defender missiles, etc. 10. As a side point, there should be an "evasive manuevers" flight mode which makes you harder to hit but also severely penalizes your offensive options.
Buraken v2	Posted - 2005.05.17 23:39:00 - [98] Originally by: Mr Stargate ahh man.. a missle nerf :( nay, its a BALANCE (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
sallyr	Posted - 2005.05.17 23:52:00 - [99] balance smallance tis what i say am i the only one that likes eve the way it is? all ccp are doing is making more and more skills to train as people are just getting to good! i say we should go back to the days when any old noob could EW while going at 12km/s in a thorax using cruse missiles! those where the days! support my cause! devolve EVE 4tw oh and the missile thing sucks bum now i will have to train my missile skills god dam it tell u what i was an amiture ew scorp captan then gess what they nerf ew and now torps what next,shield tanks ? (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Shut up	Posted - 2005.05.18 01:47:00 - [100] Originally by: sallyr what next,shield tanks ? Probably. Seeing as how i just found a good shield tank, CCP will turn their sights to it now.
xonerator	Posted - 2005.05.18 16:48:00 - [101] Unless all skills are trained to max, the missile nerf is going to pretty much make all missile boats useless. On test server, with a Raven, I took on the mordus mission. I have Caldari BS at lvl 4, Cruise missiles at only lvl 3, Heavy missiles lvl 4, rockets lvl 3, I trained up warhead upgrades to lvl 3, Missile Bombardment to lvl 2, Missile Nav at lvl 2, Guided Missile Precision at lvl 2, Target Navigation at lvl 2. For the Mordus bounty hunter, I tried Paradise Cruise, Devastator, Thorn Rockets, Thunderbolt and Havoc heavy missiles. The cruise missiles did from 24 to 30 damage, the Heavy missiles did from 12 to 18 damage. The thorn rockets did 20 damage. I loaded a target painter and tried it and damages did not increase. Webefier with 87% reduction in speed did also not increase the damage. Overall, it took over 300 missiles and rockets to kill a 30k rat.... Even an 8k rat took less missiles and had higher damage for each missile type. Like others, I dont really care for pvp and run missions. I have trained this character in all of the caldari skills and it will not really be cost effective to continue to do missions with the raven. I have not yet tested the caracal with missiles, nor the ferox, but, that will be my next task. If the missile nerf is just as bad with those ships, they will be useless in anything because they have no survivability with the nerf is it is currently configured. Guess I will have to look for another solution short of just taking my money elsewhere.....
xonerator	Posted - 2005.05.18 16:55:00 - [102] BTW devs, Why is the accelerated training no longer in effect on the server so we can train these skills up to test them. there is no way we will be able to train any of the skills to lvl 5 so we can test the advanced skills, or to see the difference say from lvl 2 or 3 in any of the new skills from taking them to lvl 5. It sure would be nice if you re-implemented this
goeroe	Posted - 2005.05.18 22:20:00 - [103] Dont u see CCP that we dont like the idea and that we dont want to have the missiles nerfed like that ...
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.05.18 23:53:00 - [104] Originally by: Johnny Zed Sorry if this idea has already been mentioned. Just an idea, maybe a half baked one, but, if you are going to use sig for the determining factor why not do sig = chance to hit. IE the smaller the sig the less chance to hit with a missile. But when a missile does hit it hits for the full damage. Maybe tie sig in with some skills as well. The better a ships agility the smaller its sig. Simulating a pilot being able to out manuever a missile. Thats a good idea, once the missile reaches the range/position it is meant to detonate at run the calclation to determine a hit or miss. Some code obviously exists that make missiles fly off harmlessly since when the target ship is destroyed or warps out the missiles start flying off in random directions harmlessly. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
goeroe	Posted - 2005.05.19 06:43:00 - [105] I just liked the idea of 'missile defenses' better. I like soloing L4 missions, yeah, in my raven. And i am a solo player who seldom waits for my corp to help me. I HATE doing L3 missions (boorring, even in cruiser or BC) and they get u no loot what so ever. So what's the reason for taking away the pleasure for doing missions. If it is only for PVP reasons, well make some T2 chaff or flares or whatever. If the missions are too easy - hell we all know that there will be L5 or L6 or L25 misions in a few (insert self)days-weeks-months. But please dont nerf it like this or a lot of peeps will be disappointed .. or worse.
Bohoba	Posted - 2005.05.19 11:26:00 - [106] Originally by: goeroe I just liked the idea of 'missile defenses' better. I like soloing L4 missions, yeah, in my raven. And i am a solo player who seldom waits for my corp to help me. I HATE doing L3 missions (boorring, even in cruiser or BC) and they get u no loot what so ever. So what's the reason for taking away the pleasure for doing missions. If it is only for PVP reasons, well make some T2 chaff or flares or whatever. If the missions are too easy - hell we all know that there will be L5 or L6 or L25 misions in a few (insert self)days-weeks-months. But please dont nerf it like this or a lot of peeps will be disappointed .. or worse. Ya worse they could lose my 3 accounts hum mm any other space games out there oh well have to wait and see Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Icarus Starkiller	Posted - 2005.05.20 03:45:00 - [107] I agree with Goeroe entirely. I do missions to pass the time waiting for my corp mates to log on and we can go do some PvP. I don't wait around for them to log on JUST so I can run a mission. The loot, rewards, loyalty points, and standing changes have already been nerfed to a complete standstill to the point where I finally just gave up on my L4 agent and went down into 0.0 to hunt rats... suddenly that became as profitable, but a hel of a lot more boring. Again, down in 0.0 I had to wait for my corp mates to go do some PvP, usually (though there were local corps to aid in that endeavor usually). So, nerf missions yet again with this truly idiotic change to missile mechanics. WTG, CCP.
Zandramus	Posted - 2005.05.20 19:01:00 - [108] Edited by: Zandramus on 20/05/2005 19:01:50 I will say this now CCP if this is brought in the way that it is on the test server now I will not continue with this game. The game has been fine the way it is and I am tired of all the nerfing that has been done to skills that I have spent time and money training for. by implementing the changes that you made to MegaPulse lasers and Radio Crystals you wasted my time and money that I spent training for them. Doing the same to Missiles I feel will proably be the last straw in a long line of nerfs to the skills and time I have spent training my character based on the way I felt it should be trained 6 mos ago when I started. there has to be some accountability for actions so you will lose me as a customer with these changes, and that goes for my second account as well. And before someone asks no my stuff will not be given to anyone it will be just lost to the universe. Zandramus Parking Violations Officer Geminate Division S.A.S
Arain	Posted - 2005.05.21 03:44:00 - [109] The proposed changes to missles are way overkill. It seems these changes are made to make the PvP players happy with no thought given to those players that would rather run missions and do things with a single partner or solo. Currently its possible with the proper skills and outfitting to do level 3 and 4 missions solo or with a partner in a ship such as a Raven. After the changes it will not be possible. You will either have to set the ship up special to kill frigates and then wont be able to take out the battleships or you will not be able to do the mission as the frigates will web you and let the other ships close on you and take out your ship. I think level 3s will actually be harder in a Raven then level 4s simply because there will be more unhitable frigates to deal with. Currently the game is fun to play the level 4 missions are fun and somewhat challengeing depending on the mission. Ruining that just to make a few people happier when they PvP seems stupid. I take it no one has never noticed that the most successful online games are those that are primarily non PvP? I mean its was a banner day the first time EVE had more then 12k people online at one time. Thats a small fraction of what you will find even now in EQ, or in thier latest competition EQ2 and WOW. As it is you force those who don't wish to PvP to play mainly in high security areas. Leaveing a lot of the map totally in the hands of those who want to fight over it. So now with the nerf which is mainly needed to balance PvP you reward that minority even more.
Zandramus	Posted - 2005.05.23 01:26:00 - [110] Edited by: Zandramus on 23/05/2005 01:28:32 Originally by: Arain ... It seems these changes are made to make the PvP players happy with no thought given to those players that would rather run missions and do things with a single partner or solo. Currently its possible with the proper skills and outfitting to do level 3 and 4 missions solo or with a partner in a ship such as a Raven. After the changes it will not be possible. You will either have to set the ship up special to kill frigates and then wont be able to take out the battleships or you will not be able to do the mission as the frigates will web you and let the other ships close on you and take out your ship. I think level 3s will actually be harder in a Raven then level 4s simply because there will be more unhitable frigates to deal with. .. Well, I have come up with a new setup for my Geddon ,and have to say prepatch it will melt a Raven shooting me with torps from 30k before I get hit with the third volly. and this is with only 2 mil sp invested in gunnery . So tell me how are Ravens superior at pvp vs turret ships? Turret ships are far superior atm to a Raven, its all the people that dont pvp that cry when they get ganked by a Raven that are causing this. Pre patch the Raven is a good anti frig ship, Post patch the Raven is dead period it will no longer have a use pvp and will not have a use npc. My current geddon setup will instapop frigs as well , looks like this is my new primary ship. Zandramus Parking Violations Officer Geminate Division S.A.S
Antic	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:04:00 - [111] Our tests on sisi has shown the same Zandramus. Maybe it will change. But as it currently stands missiles as a weapon has delayed noninstant defender/smartbomb stoppable damage and even without being stopped it does less damage over time than turrets. Logic would rather say that the weapon that has so many weaknesses would do the most damage when it hits. But its not so right now. So that brings us to the point. Why missiles in PvP when turrets are better in all ways? CCP have promised to add an MWD sig bloom to NPC rats but that isnt at sisi yet as far as i know so we cant test how that will affect missile NPC hunting yet. But as it stands now without that sig bloom, missile ships have problems NPC hunting. would be useful if the ammo capacity was atealst doubled (make cruise and torp ammo half size) but not sure if even that will be enough considering the amount you gotta spew out now to kill even one enemy ship. So its room for improvement.
Lig Lira	Posted - 2005.05.23 08:06:00 - [112] It'd be nice to have a dev chat about this subject seeing as how it will affect a large number of players. I fired a volley of juggernaut torpedos at a stationary shuttle and they hit for 24.6 each. I didn't have any of the spec skills but I do have torpedos 5. If I had been in a turret battleship I could've popped the thing with one gun. Which PA character are you? That's no flying saucer, that's my ass!
Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.05.23 13:23:00 - [113] CCP you doing a great job. Keep it up!!! -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies

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