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LONG RANGE FIGHTING anyone else bored to tears?.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
darth solo	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:38:00 - [1] Afternoon. As many of you will know, the flavour of the last few months has been getting a large gang together, and trying your best to snipe ur opponent at ur maximum range. all of you do it, including us. This is practically no risk warfare... All you need to do is call the nearest target, make sure your guys are up to speed and alligned.. barring lag or pilot stupidity, u will mostly always get your ship out. Seems to me that the changes that CCP have made to the game have had this effect.. 1400s and 425s are good now.. doing something about low slot damage mod stackers would maybe help i think (im one myself, and the new changes were good for me).. The map change was a good idea, but what it has given us is no1 moves alone,everyone is scared to fly themselves, and i understand fully. im not *****ing, as we now do this also... but what happened to the good old days of 20k or less fighting that got all our hearts pumping, and sometimes resulted in AMAZING fights of skill and setups.. Now it just seems to me that all the turret ships have sensor boosters and tracking comps in medium and damage mods in lows, and never fit warp dis. Fleets are also coming with less support. so what we have now is 20 bs V 20 bs head to head at 120k, and 1 ship being destroyed:(.. im amazed when i see some videos where the entire enemy fleet is destroyed yet the enemy have NO catch. surely these ppl are alligned and up to speed?. i miss the days of seeing the whites of your enemies eyes:)... anyways, just some thoughts.. i know many ppl are feeling the same, but its always nice to talk bout it;). d solo.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:42:00 - [2] Yup, its boring, at least compared to warping a gang into the enemy at 10km One thing I'd like to see is Covert Ops with the ability to use an MWD while cloaked. Moving a Cov Ops into position near a fleet thats 100+km away and not in line with any warpable objects is just pants. Half the time they don't even stay in place long enough to get to them. Gimme fast Cov Ops!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:49:00 - [3] The thrill of flying 120k in a frigate towards an enemy fleet with 10 of them shooting you is awesome though. You should try it. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Shocknawe	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:49:00 - [4] Originally by: mahhy One thing I'd like to see is Covert Ops with the ability to use an MWD while cloaked. Gimme fast Cov Ops! What he said
Gift	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Gift on 06/05/2005 13:57:32 EDIT - since I've never seen the tactic I'll keep my mouth shut
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:58:00 - [6] Originally by: mahhy Yup, its boring, at least compared to warping a gang into the enemy at 10km One thing I'd like to see is Covert Ops with the ability to use an MWD while cloaked. Moving a Cov Ops into position near a fleet thats 100+km away and not in line with any warpable objects is just pants. Half the time they don't even stay in place long enough to get to them. Gimme fast Cov Ops! Nah that just works boths ways for both sides effectively negating itself. Quote: <Oveur> also negative effects for too large gangs A fine place to start. Snipeloadouts came into play when smaller forces needed a way to handle blobs. So people started coming in from a distance wiping the support out and then fighting vs the blob became safer... and eventually evolved into what we have today. So the best way to start curing this is to handle the original problem... the blob. After your cure the blob one needs to cure the gank > tank situation: Quote: <Hammerhead> yeah Logistics cruisers are getting a big boost next patch as TomB mentions <Hammerhead> that as well as the armor plates and shield extenders are getting a boost * Redundancy wants to stay in frigates in the future too, since they're much more fun to fly. (imo) <Hammerhead> so hopefully we can see longer engagments instead of the 1 minute gankings we see <Hammerhead> and when we're designing modules we're looking at beefing up defenses more than beefing up damage Pain is meant to be felt
V2GBR	Posted - 2005.05.06 13:59:00 - [7] I have to agree, i have always been a Caldari through and through but now due to ppl sniping i have had to switch to amaar BS to have a chance. Its a good and fair point you have made. Bring back the up close and personal fighting. ---------- http://guc.webinventions.co.uk <-- GUC Site. www.webinventions.co.uk <-- My eve history.
Dracolich	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:11:00 - [8] I can only agree with my corpm8... the short range fights are so much more appealing. ________________________________________
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Elve Sorrow The thrill of flying 120k in a frigate towards an enemy fleet with 10 of them shooting you is awesome though. You should try it. Don't I know it. /me cant wait for fraps of recent FIX fight. I tackled like 5 BS in my uber incursus of doom, and the fleets were about 80km away from eachother.
Gan Howorth	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:27:00 - [10] When missile changes come in, wont there be smaller battles of frigs and cruisers around each battleship cluster where the tide of battle will decide which side gets warp jammed by tacklers and ultimately loses?
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:32:00 - [11] Pfft sif this is new, F-E were the first i saw using, this insured that a) they could fight with less numbers and not get owned 2) battles lasted longtimes, sometimes hours, you try a 30vs30 at 20km it'll be over very fast
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Gift Edited by: Gift on 06/05/2005 13:57:32 EDIT - since I've never seen the tactic I'll keep my mouth shut Sat in empire shooting indies/frigs/shuttles you wouldnt :P
darth solo	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:36:00 - [13] yeah good point bout the caldari ships.. i know a few of my corp mates have had to change the last while as being there "just to kill the frigates", isnt filled with glory:).. surely this cant be good for the game. d solo.
Risiru	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:38:00 - [14] Originally by: darth solo [...] all of you do it, including us.[...] I think I need to hurry with my new vid about 2 close-midrange range slugfests.
SinBin	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:38:00 - [15] Nice post man i was about to repost on the EW nerf & this is a side effect of that nerf. Sniping tempest are now everwere in 0.0 now & the old defence was to undock jam & undock ya small stuff now there is simple no defence, you cant use mwarp to get there only a covert can but he has to be undocked before the snipers online. As you saying its all trading damage at long range & everyone warps out with nolosses pointless & extremly boring. _______________________________________ My First Forum kill, shame a good guy but he agrrest others.
darth solo	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Sun Ra , you try a 30vs30 at 20km it'll be over very fast ya, but least then i can get targetted first, lose my ship, then get to bed early or do something usefull with my life.. this each fleet warping in and out taking pot shots at eachother for hours on end is killing me or not if u forget the pun.:(. d solo.
DeGrand	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:41:00 - [17] Edited by: DeGrand on 06/05/2005 14:44:49 Me no likey longrange either...you got peeps camping stations/gates at 150-200k and popping anything upto cruisers or even BS`s in these freaks of nature called tempests (sorry Strad, don`t p0p me pls ). By moving a cov ops in you can sometimes catch one...but its hard work usually... In fleetlike situations it shouldnt be such a big prob. But sadly theres often no way your gonna get the cov ops near them fast enough for you to warp in close and wreak havoc..A skill to allow mwd or ab on cov ops would help a lot here..I think that would basically mean the end of longrange fights. Which I got absofrigginlootly no prob with. Never really understood the need for peeps to combat longrangefighters with longrangefighting. You wanna get in close, stay out of their optimal and hold the buggers down..But somehow ppl tend to freak out when u mention the word `shortrange`. Oh...I heard theyre gonna up HP`s or at least up tanking so you`ll last longer..maybe that will help a bit..
darth solo	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Risiru Originally by: darth solo [...] all of you do it, including us.[...] I think I need to hurry with my new vid about 2 close-midrange range slugfests. close range fighting was my corps thing, we loved it.. now i wouldnt even think bout fitting my tempest with 800s or EVEN a warp dis:(. in fact im sure im losing my sight straining my eyes to see the enemy:). d solo.
Risiru	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:44:00 - [19] Edited by: Risiru on 06/05/2005 14:44:45 Originally by: darth solo Originally by: Risiru Originally by: darth solo [...] all of you do it, including us.[...] I think I need to hurry with my new vid about 2 close-midrange range slugfests. close range fighting was my corps thing, we loved it.. now i wouldnt even think bout fitting my tempest with 800s or EVEN a warp dis:(. in fact im sure im losing my sight straining my eyes to see the enemy:). d solo. Dunno why ppl always want to use their tempest at long range. They work best at 15-45km with EMP L and you can actually kill ppl.
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:45:00 - [20] Originally by: darth solo Originally by: Sun Ra , you try a 30vs30 at 20km it'll be over very fast ya, but least then i can get targetted first, lose my ship, then get to bed early or do something usefull with my life.. this each fleet warping in and out taking pot shots at eachother for hours on end is killing me or not if u forget the pun.:(. d solo. Well you need a balance of dying to fast and not dying at all hehe, increased hitpoints? i not sure what would make it better overall
mahhy	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: mahhy Yup, its boring, at least compared to warping a gang into the enemy at 10km One thing I'd like to see is Covert Ops with the ability to use an MWD while cloaked. Moving a Cov Ops into position near a fleet thats 100+km away and not in line with any warpable objects is just pants. Half the time they don't even stay in place long enough to get to them. Gimme fast Cov Ops! Nah that just works boths ways for both sides effectively negating itself. Yes and no. Of course both sides will be able to do it, but it makes "camping" a bit more dangerous. We've up against some forces lately, generally larger than us, that were quite good at sitting 100+km away for some reasonable amount of time and waiting for us to engage. Problem is without a good set of bookmarks around every single object, it was next to impossible to get a Cov Ops into position. Faster Cov Ops would give the smaller more nible groups a bit of an edge in engaging larger less mobile groups... I'd love to see it personally.
Renox	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:53:00 - [22] I have to agree with this. I find long range fighting boring but am pretty much forced to do it. Short range battles are more bloody, hectic and generally just more fun. I enjoy flying my blasterthron but it's been ages since I last used it in a fleet cause blasters aren't much good when the enemy is 90 km away. As some suggested faster covert ops might help a bit. " While Celestial Apoc is filled with smack talking, safespot hugging, gate cudling, empire war exploiting
anter	Posted - 2005.05.06 14:54:00 - [23] Originally by: mahhy Yup, its boring, at least compared to warping a gang into the enemy at 10km One thing I'd like to see is Covert Ops with the ability to use an MWD while cloaked. Moving a Cov Ops into position near a fleet thats 100+km away and not in line with any warpable objects is just pants. Half the time they don't even stay in place long enough to get to them. Gimme fast Cov Ops! Thats good idea without nerfing anyone.
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.06 15:02:00 - [24] I agree that the dominance of long range fighting is boring.
slip66	Posted - 2005.05.06 15:09:00 - [25] Its near impossible to remove the human trait of gathering together and forming a blob.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.06 16:26:00 - [26] I hear ya Darth, some of the most fun fights I've ever had were toe to toe, taking the blastathron right up in to the middle of it and having a go. High loss, high kill, high risk and godly amounts of fun. Problem is we, like you, often have to fight outnumbered - close range for us nowadays is about 40km (/me strokes his 425's) and often against snide loads of support. If we had numbers we'd be all over close range, but without them it's just suicide. The extra damage dealt by blasters / autocannons / megapulse just isn't worth the extra risk involved with warping in at 20km and pretty much guarenteeing you're gonna get scrambled.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.05.06 16:56:00 - [27] You simply fight bigger battles, but in the 5v5 or less that I usually fight in, blasterthron isn't too bad. 95% of all my fighting will be under 20km cause when you don't have huge gank fleets to rely on for insta-death, you actually have to scramble the target so he can't warp shotgun fighting is loads more fun than long range, cause it pretty much guarantees one of you WILL die. close range fighting theres no such thing as infinite dual rep tanks nor does it matter as most good pilots can break them aside from being in a raven, having a blasterthron charge at you is probably one of the single most frightening things you can experience as a battleship pilot _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Shidhe	Posted - 2005.05.06 17:13:00 - [28] In the new devchat, there was talk of hit point increases. The reason this was sunk last time was because of the detail - the proposed increases favoured those races who specialised most in shield/armor tanking. If there were a +50% (maybe more) on both shield and armor for everyone, I expect that it would find support. Why long range - its easier. I dont have to worry about both tanking and getting my turrets to hit anything - upping tracking a fraction on all short range turrets might help a bit here. [Expect some flak here - not too sure about this myself...]
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.05.06 17:46:00 - [29] Originally by: DigitalCommunist You simply fight bigger battles, but in the 5v5 or less that I usually fight in, blasterthron isn't too bad. 95% of all my fighting will be under 20km cause when you don't have huge gank fleets to rely on for insta-death, you actually have to scramble the target so he can't warp shotgun fighting is loads more fun than long range, cause it pretty much guarantees one of you WILL die. close range fighting theres no such thing as infinite dual rep tanks nor does it matter as most good pilots can break them aside from being in a raven, having a blasterthron charge at you is probably one of the single most frightening things you can experience as a battleship pilot Or two blasterthrons roll in on you. Or two tempest come out of gate cloak at point blank with emp loaded and zero transverse velocity for AT LEAST the first three to four salvos from each ship....more than enough time to seriously damage any BS, if not outright kill them. Only time I use long range tactics are with ships than can readily switch ammo like tempests and there is a need to possibly pop a EW cruiser or maybe catch a tackler offguard if they are stupid enough to sit still around a gate. Plus pyschologically it feigns your opponent into thinking that you are there to execute a long range plan of attack. Often what I do after popping one of the smaller ships in a group is change ammo back to emp and then manuever the cov ops into position for a gank if they either try and get smart and move one of their BS's out at range to "ambush" me OR I'll watch them at the gate to see if they are offsetting too far one way or the other in which case again the cov ops will do the positioning and I'll warpin at 15 and invariably get an easy kill because either they make the mistake of thinking that I'm insta-ing to the next zone or they simply grossly misjudge where I'm warping to and assume I'm headed to another sniper spot. Obviously the way to guard against long range tactics are to SS your BS and have your tacklers at the gate and moving alot. Or possibly better, offer whatever you want at the gate as bait and have your own cov ops out and about looking to reverse the tables on someone like me. One of things I love about Eve is that tactics sometimes resemble playing a Quarterback in American Football and attempting to read defenses so that you can take whatever the opposition gives you and no more. The key is to get them REACTING TO YOU, not the other way around.
Hotice	Posted - 2005.05.06 18:16:00 - [30] Long range sniping is the least risky type of combat, that is why people like it so much. It is pretty boring for the receiving end of it but good for the sniper. To fix this you have to change how ew/damage mods/sensor booster work. Move all EW modules to high slots and make them take massive amount pg/cpu to fit and use large amount of cap to use. Make it 1 damage mod and 1 sensor booster per ship. These changes will means that a ship that is going to use EW will not be able do much damage. It will also take 3+ frigates or 2 cruisers to jamp/web/scramble a BS. There wouldn't be as much of ganking setup ships and lead to more balanced tank/damage build. Thus make fights last longer. 1 sensor booster per ship means no more 140km range snipers but ships with long range weapon and pilot with good gunnery skills can still shoot far enough. There is really no other way to fix ganking/sniping/single frigate tackling and shooting for good damage without the above changes. Yeah, those changes will means people have to bring larger force to be effective. Just I think it is for the better to the pvp part of this game than what it is now.

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