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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 16:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
The problem right now is that drones appear to be something CCP wants to make a consumable, like missiles for missioning purposes.
But they are a built in weapon system with limited capacity that makes them PART of their mothership. 2 things need to change if this is to be the new order of things:
1. Drone cost, this will have to be brought down to closer to where missiles are, not necessarily as low since they are not "theoretically" dead the first time they are launched, but under this new system their odds of survival are historically low now.
2. We need to be able to carry compliments of them similar to missiles, so their stored size will need to be significantly reduced, as well as have the ability to load more drones from our storage to our drone bays in space. A rattlesnake or domi without surviving drones is one in dire straits.
If these two problems were addressed almost no one here would have a problem with losing drones at an alarming rate, as long as the cost of losing them was in line with the cost of what a Tengu uses in missiles for the same mission.
If this is not the intention of CCP then I believe that the next best solution is to do what the majority is demanding, set back drones to not be agro switched to ONCE they have established agro on at least 1 player ship. Meaning they can agro drones when a wave spawns etc. so you have to pay some attention, but not when they "should be" being utilized as a combat mechanic.
Right now my Domi and Rattlesnake are on standby because the cost of using them is greater than the use of other vessels. Likewise I am also using a Tengu for exploration again instead of my (Icursus? The T2 frigate that looks like a Jousting frog with the big drone bonus.) My frigate is more fun to fly but cost of resupply on drones especially on what is sometimes a income neutral/opportunity cost negative venture already.
I just thought it would be prudent for me to weigh in on this as well as everyone else who has contributed to this 20 page long THREADNAUGHT. I encourage those of you reading who have not posted to also make a quick way in with a post to say that this is something that is also important to you.
ALSO.... this needs to be dealt with post haste in some fashion as well because it appears that more and more races are getting drone heavy systems (see amarr ships and new plans for the Prophecy.) |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
So what your saying Mund is that other than light drones, sentries, and Heavies in a very narrow, functionality windows are broken in a different way; additionally that they cannot be used effectively in their current form and that the targeting of these larger drone types just further exacerbates this problem?
After current form above read.... due to your description mediums, "Mediums... well, they cost twice the bay/bandwidth than lights, are slower, track worse, their resolution is cruiser-sized, but their damage ain't twice of the lights."
Could you please provide some advice to help alleviate these problems and make them more useful? What would you like to see, them moved down to frigate size or better damage? Or would you do something else that would give them better functionality in this new age of drone murderfest.
Would you say that as it stands now, your ships should field either sentries or light drones that stay very close to your ship and deal with frigates, otherwise your additional bandwidth means nothing because you have stated mediums are lacking and heavies were always a disappointment. (I agree with you profusely on these points and I never bothered to train T2 heavies, since T2 mediums did the same job and were fast enough to get back for warpout/ new spawn and the heavies never were.)
I appreciate your input. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Afraid I can add little to what you said, due to it being correct, except to nitpick one little thing that I am sure you thought of but went ahead and said anyway.
Making the heavies immune to webbing would be a major boost and give them a shadow of a hope of getting back to you after snagging agro, but it would also make them viable/dangerous in pvp (not terribly so due to the reasons already covered but still something to consider)
The most logical fix I could come up with I posted about decreasing the prices of the drones horrendously and using them like missiles.
But now you have brought up other points that make me think another solution that might need to be tackled as well is in each drone catagory scale their damage accordingly, while you are fixing them anyway.
(Or of course the other thing people are asking for don't let the NPC mission or exploration ships turn on them.)
Additionally:
I have used Gallente drones, and Warrior IIs, and the Occasional Bouncer Sentries. Oh oh and ECM drones, and a wide assortment of shield and armor repair drones. And at one time I used to use 4 heavies and a webber drone trying to make the heavies useful :-(
But the other drones (not counting the other sentries from time to time) the other lights and mediums suffer from the wrong damage types or damage projection issues to be useful... in my opinion.
Unfortunately if a Gallente Light drone can't do it then you have a problem.... but that is a sad state since many ships obviously are designed to have a much better compliment of drone damage. But right now they are in a bad place.
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Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Bedlin wrote:Afraid I can add little to what you said, due to it being correct, except to nitpick one little thing that I am sure you thought of but went ahead and said anyway.
Making the heavies immune to webbing would be a major boost and give them a shadow of a hope of getting back to you after snagging agro, but it would also make them viable/dangerous in pvp (not terribly so due to the reasons already covered but still something to consider) I did say NPC EWAR. Immunity could be just a script that checks if the target is a player ship or not.
I am pretty sure CCP has a reasonably strict policy against making a mechanic work differently on an NPC vs a player. They are actively working right now to simplify down their code as evidenced by the large work unifying and redoing the crime watch systems. It is unlikely they would add in a if then, else in the code to cover mission and exploration NPCs. More likely they will either do it across the board or search for a different solution. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Bedlin wrote:Mund Richard wrote:I did say NPC EWAR.
Immunity could be just a script that checks if the target is a player ship or not. I am pretty sure CCP has a reasonably strict policy against making a mechanic work differently on an NPC vs a player. They are actively working right now to simplify down their code as evidenced by the large work unifying and redoing the crime watch systems. It is unlikely they would add in a if then, else in the code to cover mission and exploration NPCs. More likely they will either do it across the board or search for a different solution. Not quite understanding what you mean by that strict policy. In one direction: Zor is immune to all EWAR effects for instance. In the other: NPC EWAR and weapons, heck cap works quite differently from that of player's, such as unnerfed citadel cruise, torps or webs... Also, light drones are strictly not engaged except elite cruisers/frigs, and so on.
Allow me to clarify, they don't have any trouble allowing the NPCs do do horrible horrible (stasis tower) things to us from 100km...
but they seem to shy away from introducing mechanics that allow our skills to operate differently on the NPCs. (by design)
The reason the cap drains and energy neuts etc. do not work properly on them is because they were designed very differently than player ships. I don't want to name any other games but in some games NPC characters can cast spells without having a mana pool, because they were set up in their data objects to be able to do that, I theorize thats how the eve NPCs are, they can use their attacks but don't have any capacitor to drain.
When they change something they try to do it across the board and when they see its going to create a problem say... in an exploration site with a certain ship they may make a change as simple as adding your ship type on a restriction list for a gate to go in.
I know this wasn't the best description, as I can't think of a specific case off the top of my head if anyone here can volunteer a specific case I would appreciate it, but it got us a bit off topic already anyway...
So drones... need.... help... discuss. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 22:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:
Does not quite clarify still.
But as said a post ago, I'm sleepy, might be something I am missing.
I'm not talking about skills, or even modules, but NPC targeting preferences.
Mainly: non-elite rats are not allowed to target small drones.
My suggestion: Rat EWAR not allowed to target any drones.
I don't quite see what's the difference between hard-coding total target preferences, and EWAR target preferences.
Okay you are STATING: "NPC Frigate 1: "I can shoot his drone if I want to, but I am going to keep my web/target painter on that big Dominix"
I didn't understand that was what you were going for... yes that does seem like that would HELP the situation, but it won't fix the problems. I do like it as a start though. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
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Posted - 2013.01.22 19:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Forgive this, not intentionally trolling or ranting and a bit off topic but if you want to talk about things not being tested or understanding how they are used.... the best example was the "inventory system overhaul" that they FINALLY just got back usable recently with opening cans in space again and ship inventory as well and now with persistent and logical windows in the stations again.
(Also see, removed ship spinning debacle)
... back on topic,
The drones were never intended to be targeted unless a spawn got you wrong that's why they are so weak and expensive, that was your check against doing a mission without paying attention to them.
Earlier in this topic I posted what I think would help out and had a discussion with another Gallente about the nature of the problem I would encourage people to refer back to it. I do not think I or We were radically off on what we were saying. (page 20ish?)
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Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
14
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Posted - 2013.01.22 23:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well really the purpose of this thread it to have (THE COMPANY) look at it and rethink the issue, they could use some of the ideas here or come up with an even better fix or give up like the original poster wants and roll it back.
It's not my place to see what is the best to fix the issue, but I do hope they are "adamantly concerned and actively looking into it, with hopes to have it fixed "soon"."
(Hey devs if you would post in here you can even use my quoted comment there to give us some feedback.)
 please?  really?  something?
okay  |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
14
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Posted - 2013.01.24 19:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote:Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)
Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.) |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
15
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Posted - 2013.01.25 16:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
disturbed Rin wrote:well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer
just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones!
I just want to point out from earlier in this thread and from personal observation it appears that the only drones we can use that have any hope of survival (and thus not being a net loss of money) are the Hobgoblin light drones. Even they are in danger if you aren't killing off frigs as fast as you can and get lucky. So.... |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
16
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Posted - 2013.01.28 20:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: if your drones are more than about 10km out, they're dead already on a target switch.
If they are light and you are really paying attention... they got a chance. So to reiterate, again, this change very clearly illustrates that medium and heavy drones are completely obsolesced (its a word, but I cant spell it) by the changes. Sentry drones are just fine, and light drones have a margin of usefulness.
So lets take a look just to Illustrate back one of our cases, not for drone ships but for missions (all types, so counting explorations etc...even though you wouldnt do them with this example ship just stay with me fellas, dont flame) and for this example I am going to use a Raven.
The raven's main weapon compliment is cruise missiles, "good" for battleships, "fair" for battlecruisers, middling to poor on cruisers sans target painter. Borderline worthless on frigates.
Raven's drone compliment: 75 m3/ 75m3
Everyone has always used light drones to take out frigates.... so we can say you keep one flight of light drones.
75-25= 50 remaining bandwidth.
Since the anti-cruiser assistance you desperately need should be facilitated by medium drones it would be logical to carry 5 of them to fill that remaining bandwidth AND what I believe it was initially designed to fit in that area.
T2 mediums would just be fodder for cruisers to blow up so your light drones now have to do double duty.
so do you just get 2 more flights of light drones to replace ones lost in the course of the mission? Counterproductive, you start losing drones and you are cutting into your income. Secondarily if you load 2 sentries it will give you a bit more umph but that just goes in to point out the idocracy we find ourselves in. This is not a drone boat but it has little options.
Effectively as it stands now you could make it just have 25 m3 bandwidth and give it 75m3 storage if you want it to only launch lights now and for that matter the person will probably be better off in a heavy missile drake. Way to force people back toward a drake, since at least it will be able to bring more firepower to bear on cruisers, frigates, and battlecruisers.
Thanks to Morrigan LeSante for helping me make this point. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
18
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Posted - 2013.01.30 18:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.
What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?
Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)
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Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
23
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Posted - 2013.02.22 21:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shadowschild wrote:I think the current NPC AI is still in it's infancy. I'd like an actual challenge from them. You know some logistical cruisers, a mix of dampening / ecm / target painting & alot more warp scrambling not just from frigates.
*squints eyes* Not sure if trolling....
Right now they need to reduce the cost to build drones down to close to what missiles cost and give us the ability to load them into the drone bay from the cargo hold if they want them to get killed in these numbers to make it "more challenging or entertaining" for us.
Not that most care but I did go and cancel my account last month, still running out my time training, but there is a place there so you can tell them why you canceled.... felt good. I kinda hope they fix the drone homicide before my account time runs out. |
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