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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10586
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:People don't see the problem with DC being an active module? Really? No. I see some issues with making it passive though.
Pitrolo Orti wrote:Damage control really needs to be passive. I forget to turn it on every time I go PVP... That is indeed a good reason to keep it active. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10589
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Diamond Bull wrote:Of course Tippia is opposed to making it passive so that can only mean there is some way to use it being active to be a jerk. No, it can only mean that I see issues with it being passive (most notably the massive non-penalised omni-damage multi-layer EHP improvement it provides and that, while it's difficult to get the timing right GÇö it's mostly luck, really, you can neut it). There's also the interactivity of it, as illustrated by the poor fellow above who forgets to turn it on.
In contrast to these reasons not to do it, I can't think of any good reason for making it passive. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10593
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:I think there is a logical fallacy involved here. Not really. ECCM, hardeners, sebos, TCs and the like all match those reasons for why you want DCs to be passive: they're an annoyance to turn on every time; it's not like there's a good reason to have them off. So why should they stay active and not DCs?
Quote:How about we make all passive mods (ALL mods, shield extenders, etc etc) active, and they have a 30 sec timer and cost 1 cap. That must be great, yeah? No. They all have penalties, limitations, and requirements that make up for their passive status. So really, the question should rather be: if the DC was made passive, how do you propose to nerf it to make up for this improvement? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10593
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:They all have "comparable" modules which are passive. No. They all have much less capable or much more costly modules that are passive. There's the difference.
Quote:I think rather, since this was supposed to be passive in the first place, add another module which is all so slightly more powerful? Power creep is bad. If you want a lazy-man's DC, ask for one that does what you'd expect a passive module to do: less or the same at a higher cost.
Since GÇ£the first placeGÇ¥ happened before the current game balance was put in place, it is not a good target to aim for.
Quote:So it's about time they rebalance the DC too then. Why? What's wrong with the way it's balanced? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10593
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Do you really find it that much of a reward, having to activate this module so much? I think that a 13% / 15% / 60% damage resistance is a pretty huge reward, yes.
Quote:It's an extra click, and it's unnecessary. Only in the sense that it's a click that is often not needed, same as with all other active modules. Beyond that, it's a click that can mean the difference between life and death GÇö hardly unnecessary.
Emu Meo wrote:DC should quite obviously be a passive module. The test of whether a module should be passive or not is if there is any point in having the module switched off. There is a point in that it can be switched off: it makes the ship much weaker (especially when the ship least needs that to happen).
Quote:As for the argument that it is some kind of an elite skill to click a module on everytime,,, really? The only one making that argument is the OP. Apparently, the heroic effort required is nigh unbearable. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10594
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Posted - 2012.12.06 21:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Emu Meo wrote:Is this a serious argument? It's not an argument GÇö it's game mechanics. It is not about intention, but about effect: the difference a DC makes means there's a point to turning it on and point to trying to get it to turn off. It may not be easy, but it can be done and it makes a world of difference.
The fact that it's there as a mistake for the pilot to make (or for the enemy to induce) means that there is a point to its being an active module. The herculean task required to turn it on is also rewarded by the pretty astonishing benefits it brings with it (which would have to be removed or reduced if it were ever made passive).
Quote:But as others have said I think the actual module is a little badly implemented and would like to see it reworked someday. In what way?
Emu Meo wrote:Its not difficult, but it serves little purpose. Also it gets annoying if your doing multiple jumps and have to keep switching it on everytime. Good news: you don't have to switch it on every time. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10595
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Emu Meo wrote:And so making the module properly active would aid these goals you are setting out above. As luck would have it, it's already properly active GÇö no change needed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10595
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:It's about as properly active as a passive module that draines 1 cap every 30 seconds is properly passive, lol. Since those two are each other's opposites, nope.
Emu Meo wrote:Are you just trying to troll now or what? Nope. Why would I be?
Quote:Adding a noticeable amount of cap use to the DC and giving it a small cycle time should make you happy if and alleviate the problems of AFKing and not being able to nuet it off you were complaining about above? You're confusing me with someone else. I haven't complained about AFKing or about not being able to neut it off, so I have no idea what you're on about.
I just see no reason why it should be made passive, much less a reason that outweighs the problems with such a change. At the same time, I see no reason why it should be nerfed GÇö it's not like it's horribly overpowered in its current state or causing any real issues. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10595
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Emu Meo wrote:The reason it should be changed to one or the other is to improve gameplay. In what way?
Quote:But I agree with the OP's notion that it would benefit from a change in the future if CCP get that chance. How so? Why does it need either a buff or a nerf? What's wrong with its current state?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10596
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Emu Meo wrote:The reasons are obvious if you think them through. Ok, so what are they? What's wrong with its current state? How would changing it improve gameplay? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10596
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:For one, you don't have to push a button every time you sneeze. GǪa problem that doesn't exist to begin with.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10597
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 07:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:This is not a fact, it's your opinion, and it brings nothing to this discussion really. GǪexcept that it is indeed a fact. You do not have to push a button every time you sneeze. Not only because the EVE UI isn't sneeze-sensitive, but also because nothing in the game requires you to keep pushing that button.
You need to turn your DC on at one point and one point only: when it's about to get ugly. This is not the same as GÇ£alwaysGÇ¥. Thus, you don't need to push any buttons at every opportunity. You don't have to activate your DC any more often than you do, say, a missile launcher. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10598
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:You don't leave your guns on and forget about them until the fight is over. That all depends on what kind of target you're engaging and how paranoid you are about the lag monster.
The point remains: you do not have to Ctrl-F1 your DCs anywhere near as constantly as some seem to suggest. The OP tries to paint it as something have to keep doing over and over again every time you do anything, when the fact of the matter is that you usually need to do it somewhere between once and never per outing.
Quote:Except jumping. And undocking. Neither of those mean you absolutely must push a button activate your DC, and yes, the situations that require you to do so are rare indeed and are completely decoupled from gate and station usage.
Quote:Hardeners are situational. ...exactly like the DC. If the situation doesn't call for it, it's pointless to turn it on, and complaining about your decision to repeatedly do something that is pointless only provides an argument for not doing those pointless things. Your inability to keep your fingers off the module is not a reason to change that module. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10604
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:You think the DC is situational in a fight? No. I think it's situational, period. Therefore, this whole idea that you have to turn it on after every jump or undock is bunk.
This entire thread hinges on the notion that you have to keep turning it on. The fact of the matter is that you don't. Thus the complaint becomes one of people being annoyed that they keep doing pointless things. The solution to this problem is not to alter the module they are obsessing over - it's to stop doing those pointless things.
Quote:The fact remains, there are no situation where you explicitly do not want your DC to be on. And the other fact also remains: there is a point to it being on (and having to remember to do it) and to being able to turn it off (just because someone else makes the decision doesn't mean the ability becomes pointless). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10604
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Quite clearly you have never camped two gates in nullsec with several characters at once before. Sure I have. That was one situation. Setting aside for a moment that there is no need to turn the DC on after every jump even in that case, it's still just that: a situation -- one among many. It doesn't change the fact that the DC is situational. If anything, it just further illustrates it.
Quote:Try understanding the situation of others before stating opinions as facts. Try understanding what "situational" means before ignoring facts just because they clash with your opinion. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10605
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:You mean other than the need to activate it every jump because the only reason you jump is to fight? In other words, you don't have to activate it every jump. You only have to activate it situationally when you're preparing for a fight -- a situation that is completely decoupled from jumps and undocks.
Quote:"Position or status with regard to conditions and circumstances." "of, relating to, or appropriate to a situation" Good. So, in other words, DCs are situational. Depending on the conditions and circumstances, you may or may not want to (or need to) turn it on. Depending on the situation, it may or may not be appropriate to activate it.
Quote:By definition, there needs to be a situation where it is inappropriate. By definition, any situation where it's not appropriate - i.e. it's the default situation.
Quote:Every module I can think of in this game has an advantage to being either off or on. On, it does it's job, off it will save you cap, or in speed terms, let you align faster. The damage Control has no advantage to being off. Ever ...and yet, there is a point to it being possible to turn it off.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:You have to turn the DCU on every time you uncloak to enter combat. You have to turn the DCU on every time you jump through a gate or portal or cyno and enter combat.... There are many times you have to turn this module on when "entering" combat. Now note what the defining characteristic is of those situations when you should turn it on and what is not. The key factor is exactly that: when entering combat. The key factor is not "every time", or "when jumping" or "uncloaking" or "undocking". The DC is a situational, as are indeed all the modules in EVE. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10605
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If you start taking damage before you can get your DC on, then you fail at EVE. What are smartbombs? You mean those things that you can predict and avoid if you don't fail at EVE?
Quote:Is it not a fact that there is no reason not to have the DC on? Nope. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10606
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:]Situational is not simply "it can be on or off, so it's situational". ...and as luck would have it, no-one is claiming anything of the kind.
It's situational because there are situations where it's useful and situations where it's not.
Quote:You still have not given any reason for why you would want it off. ...aside from the ones you've provided, you mean? Also, you keep ignoring the fact that there is a point to being able to turn it off. You are not the only one with any say in the matter, and there are plenty of reasons for people to want it to turn off.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10606
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:And what point is that? Neuts? Give me a break, when did that ever happen Oh, pretty much all the time.
Quote:There are no situations where it is useful not to have it active. ...aside from when you don't need it, and aside from when it's useful to try to turn it off.
Quote:Oh except when trying to safe log-off, which happens(in my opinion) to be another reason to make it passive. Nah, that's a good reason to keep it active: to ensure that safe log-off is something you do with care. If all you want to do is log off, closing the client works just fine. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10606
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:What? I don't even... "It is useful to not have it active when you don't need it". Are you serious? If it is of no use when turned on, then no, it's not useful to have it turned on. This seems like quite the tautology so I'm not entirely sure why this is such a shocking revelation to you? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10606
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Then why do you online your shield extender before undocking? Because of the massive cap cost if I try to do it after I've undocked.
Quote:Activating passive modules for 1 cap seems to give you so much satisfaction. No, but turning them off sure does, and since they they're easy enough to ignore until you really need them, it's not like turning them on is a huge chore.
Quote:Really man, quote the whole sentence I quoted the full question that I was answering. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10606
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 14:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Neither is switching security every time you log on. Actually, it is, because you know your intent before you even log in and its setting has no impact on people around you -- only you. Unlike the DC, which is situational and which has actual game-mechanical effects.
Quote:Nor is opening ships and inventory when you dock. Or resizing the info window when you open it. For these, the chore is zero, since you can already make their appearance persistent and automatic, so exactly what you're trying to illustrate here is quite beyond me. Opening inventories or info windows are not a chore so therefore we should not have to make an active decision to turn on a critical module?! Huh?
Quote:Or having to drag all modules from a wreck to your cargo (pre loot all). The difference here is that it's actually supposed to be a bit of work, so that the nimble-fingered can get the stuff before the competition does. Automation in this regard would be a bad thing.
Quote:Or activating every ungrouped gun (pre grouping). And finally, this one was done because it had beneficial consequences for the servers and because it was such a consistent "do everything the same every time" that people had it (legally) macroed -- putting it into the client rather than relying on external software was just a sensible fairness move.
None of these particularly correspond to the (significant) game impact of having the DC as an active module, and the balancing considerations that would have to be taken into account should it be changed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10607
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 14:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Yet again Tippia, this is getting tiring, you do not respond to the issue, but make up a fictional and respond to them and win a fictional argument. Incorrect, yet again. I respond to the issue by demonstrating the difference between a module (and the effect it has) and various UI tweaks that may or may not have been put into place to deal with completely separate issues.
Quote:Those things are/were not huge chores (respond to the damn argument *for once, please*) but Eve is a better place because we are rid of those small issues. ...and the DC being active has nothing to do with it being a chore no matter how much you want to paint it as one (after all, this is pretty much your only argument for making it passive).
The game improvements, or lack thereof, with the examples you chose also had nothing to do with removing chores (except for in the window persistence example, where this kind of detail is exactly what good UI design does). Instead, they are all utterly and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand because they all have different purposes and because none of them have anything resembling the game balance considerations of an active module. The safety is a misfeature because it deals with intent; the UI persistence is meant to remove such busywork; looting is the exact opposite and is meant to require a bit of work; gun grouping only accidentally makes shooting easier; none of them have have to do with making your ship perform better or worse. They are all completely separate, unconnected issues.
Making the DC passive does not make EVE a better place even if it removes a (non)chore and no amount of irrelevant dissimiles changes this. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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