Distribute plex spawns throughout the day.
Have the same NPC spawn for every factions plexes - easy fix and balances them out remove ECM from NPC, this is just silly..

Also, fix FW and I will redo my portrait so you don't have to keep looking at my shaven testicle.

No you're not the alone.

Allowing alliance into FW will do several things:

1) Large alliances will start to farm FW missions or any other means of getting LP, destroying LP item market for the rest of us. Most people in FW rely on missions to support their PvP. Take away this income from people and watch FW die.

2) Destroy small corp warfare: How can a 20 man corp compete with nulsec alliance, that can drop caps on you at any time. Well someone might then say that it will force people to join or form alliances of their own. However a lot of active people in FW right now are in it precisely because we don't want to deal with all of the alliance drama. We fell absolutely fine being a loosely associated bunch of gun-ho lunatics connected only by our desire to kill stuff and talking smack on TS. There is a reason why FW alliances do not last. FW as it is right now is a Wild West of EVE. It's harsh and inhospitable, it's largely empty but if you're willing to stick around and learn few tricks it gives one an ultimate freedom of not giving a **** about politics, dramas and attitudes of basement dwellers who somehow manged to get to position of power in an alliance.

3) It will lead to bigger blobs: Even right now if someone decides to put their carriers into combat the risk of getting hot dropped is very high. Combined with fact that you cant really get rich in FW it leads to largely low-scale action, where fighting is not just about who can get larger blob out ( though sometimes it is), but about how well you know the area and your opponent. Large alliances will bring nothing, but blobs of players in expensive ships (not a bad thing on its own), chasing around newbies in rifters. No thank you. I feel fine, when we have to deal with their roaming blobs right now, but i don't want to deal with them every-time I undock.

Perhaps to spawn more PVP fights in FW a simple change in rewards is in order. Make it far more profitable and rewarding to blow up hostile ships than just getting something tasty on the killboards. This very simple change of adding a larger isk reward to blowing hostiles up would encourage players to actually fight each other.

PROs
-gets people to focus more on PVP, since its an income source.
-Money gets people modivated to organize.
-More fights = better!
-Encourages people to join milita's to make PVP a job!

CONs
-'noob farming' may become more legitimized

Scaling rewards can always work nicely... IE scale the rewards with the effectivness of the person you killed, IE they are worth more pending on their kill/loss rates. An alt who dies alot wouldn't be worth jack ****, a person with 2000 kills on their belt would be.

But you are right, there is still room for exploitation. Still, some rewards > none

- Plexes are a mix of not only sizes but goals. Hacking, Archaeology, straight up red-cross popping etc. are all represented, most of them should be designed to disallow solo capture (see below).
- *Hacking example* Goal can take the form of a mini-game contests where one side is trying to break into data nodes while the other tries to encrypt/secure them (think DeusEx:HR hacking minigame). By requiring twin nodes to be accessed at a time for it to work the solo-frig can be eradicated.
- Time to complete for attacker should aim for roughly same as now while time for defender is shorter .. locking a door is considerably easier than breaking it down. .

- Missions remain as they are with hopefully an increase in difficulty. Getting paid 40-50M for five minutes work just shouldn't exist in Eve regardless of travel time or "risk".
,,,,.

The missions should remain lucrative (or else no one will run them), but I also agree with Cearain that the challenge needs to be stepped up. The AI is pitiful, and with all the other AI changes in the game, there seems to be some simple tweaking to the mission system to encourage GROUP tackling of missions, not solo work. ..

Hey guys

Great feedback in this thread. I'm taking a few notes and getting a few ideas.

One thing we might be able to do very easily is remove the faction NPCs, letting you freely travel in other factions space. How would you guys feel about that change? I've always found it a bit sad that we've isolated FW in low-sec when it could be done on a much larger scale.

For me, there are several smaller improvements that would entice me back to FW:

* Removal of NPC's from Plexes. The racial EWARs are not balanced - Caldari jamming is not balanced by Gallente lock range nerfing.
* Plex spawn mechanics becoming independent on DT
* No more losing Factional standing when repping a -5 or GCC FW mate.
* No more losing Factional standing when a FW mate dies in your bubble when roaming nullsec
* Occupancy starts to mean something
- possible change to FW mission income based on occupancy, either at the global level or system level (nerf or boost)
- no docking rights, or substantial docking fee
- access to, or cost of, station services.
- market tax breaks?
* some alert system for plexes being run by the enemy. If they are supposed to encourage and enable PVP, then please give us the intel required to engage the enemy!

And both of us have had Pandemic Legion crawling throughout our warzone like a bad case of pubic lice whether we like it or not. My philosophy is that if you fix the mechanics to encourage gameplay that restricts ship or fleet size (the plexing system) than alliance participation is a non-issue, we can still fight each other without the really big stuff getting in the way.

The problem now is the fighting happens on stations, on belts, on gates. Nowhere else. This is prime hotdropoclock territory, and the reason the Alliances have access to us. ....

why would they run away. if they know their mission can be completed by an enemy. why would they run away? wouldnt they fight for their mission? with an actual gang of people? new dawn of fighting in militia, over those stupid missions everybody keeps complaining about LP farming. As a bonus to not let you just let your mission expire, it would count as a disadvantage in VP for the system its in to let the enemy take it. And a obvious corresponding advantage for the VP in the system, if completing the mission

as for implementation be something like, an incursion style log in your journal say Faction warfare tab> current missions in system tab. and other tabs would be missions and an overview of what needs to be accomplished. and it will say what you as the enemy need to accomplish or the friendly needs to accomplish, when said mission pops on overview.

just a thought is all.

I disagree. My presumption is not slanted.

IMO, people don't like to do plexes because orbiting a button is boring when there is no opposition. .

They'd rather go hunt for WTs with their free time. Missions are better n that respect because if nobody opposes you, you complete the task and are done. Put a poison pill into missions and you'll allow griefers to upset them.

I still have to use 3 Sensor boosters to be able to target in a mission. Locking a battleship rat can take up to 40 seconds in some scenarios due to damps. Remove all NPCs ECM/damps and reduce their dps to such **** that I can bring a pvp ship rather than a pve one if this "poison pill" concept is to have any merit. Everyone that wants to make isk making a pvp activity just want to gank pve fitted ships with their pvp fitted ship. Mixing pvp and pve has already proven to be a bad idea (see FW plexing).

An increase in the population that can supply faction items such as navy scorps, domis, etc will infact drop prices further. Implementing more items (such as the customs office BPCs, other faction ships) available to spend the LP on will help alleviate this though. I was really hoping for that "iterative cruiser balance" to fix a lot of the navy faction cruisers (the lower teired ones in particular) which would make them appealing, giving them more value.

The militia is supposed to act like a loose alliance anyhow, so I personally don't see the reason to allow alliances to join....

I hate to write a giant media site promoting FW in its current state. ...

Docking rights to hostile stations should be removed right away tbfh, there is no logical reason why you would accept that ppl you are war with to dock in your stations

Keep in mind that you are well and truly screwed without something as simple as services .. have fun waging a war of attrition when all you can do is change ships, no fitting .. no repair .. no nothing.
Only "problem" with that limited approach is the possibility of using alts to do the servicing, but holy hell that is going to drive some people to suicide me'thinks.

In short: Docking rights don't need to be revoked as all the power lies in the services.

For completeness, the 'rules' should apply not only to ALL stations in hostile space but to hostile stations everywhere (ie. Amarr will never be able to dock in NPC matar station no matter where it is).

it will accomplish that if you do venture into hostile space, then you better be ready to fight if hostiles show up, rather then just docking up. At least with the changes to log off mechanismes.

Is of no consequence since they are making destroyers as powerful as cruisers .. minor's and FW in general will not see a single frigate ever again if the destroyer changes go through 'as is' .. going to be pure dessie spam.

This

1.
There is couple things that have made FW plex warfare unplayable.......

Removing npc from plexes is not solution, it just adds possibility swarm alts and cap plexes afk, only change needed is to ensure that npc attacks all who can capture that plex. Some balance maybe needed for npc to make it fair for all militias, npc should be so powerfull that afk 60k skillpoint alts cant handle those. Doing co-operation with two guys or more with smaller ships to speed tank those npc:s should be possible as it is now. Maybe change npc agro only if you touch timer, then you can snipe afk defending alts without npc interference..

Notifying does not really help anything, i can spam those notify messages with my alts in other systems when i really take another plex somewhere else..

Do your scouting and find where enemy is. Map tells it anyway if you know how to use it.

Those alts were my notification channel

Anyway you want that CCP does the most important part of EVE game play automatically. We did not have any problems to follow who was plexing and where he currently was, we hunted him down until he quit plexing. It is all about creating player network or organization who can achieve something.

You just want easy ganks.

You are clearly guy who have no idea what FW plexing is, go and try to get systems back that minmatar has taken, and i am sure you will find that PVE is not only thing that prevents you.

No one bother to hunt you down because you do not make any threat in system occupancy war.

Something like that, so if we think we could end whole FW, it has been dead for a long time.

This.

Update on FW: I have contacted the CSM about the FW review and they say it is one of the subjects that will be a topic at the december summit. That means it will most likely not appear in the winter patch, but shortly afterwards (hopefully with the AF 4th bonus).

why would they - they are all null sec. . .

It seems that RvB is right place for you.

I do not know what you are talking about, we took all systems and i we were using only pvp fitted ships.

We did not have any problems to know where plexes were or who did those and when.

If you will send notification you have to still wait enemy to show up. And if you are too power full it will take several hours for militia to form up something that can beat people in plex.

10min 15min and 20min are not enough to make 15 jumps with proper sized ships, so if you want to take systems you have to keep some kind of control in area all the time.

You need organisation that can handle all this, intel, plexing, pvp, logistics etc...

We even told several time to gallente where we were plexing, but most of times they just did not show up. So notification hardly does not solve anything.

Cearain, even you must realise that a notification will not solve everything .. it can-will at best be a small part of a comprehensive revamp of the whole she-bang. If it was added as a stand-alone fix you'd instantly put at least Amarr at a stupidly big disadvantage due to geography/layout of FW area.
Amarr has 15 jumps from hub to furthest system going through 2-3 literal bottle-necks whereas Matar has at most 7 jumps with multiple routes available .. won't matter in the long run or in Eve terms as Amarr is obviously the one destined to soldier on when all others have been vanquished, but still.....

The mere fact that it is being farmed as heavily as it is proves beyond doubt that it is not what was intended .. it is the single highest source of income for an individual anywhere in Eve .. that should belong in blob-land not Empire according to risk/reward system. ...

I think its enough with the silly mission stuff, back to pew pew :)



I have to change this list because of the coming winter patches changes to dramiels (nerf) & destroyers (buff). I don't think pirate frigs are gonna be that overpowered in minor plexes after that...

Yes, we did plex in Old Man Star (1 jump from Villore, gallente ex staging system.) several times, and we told gallente that we take plex in OMS and what ships we had and that they will have 30min time to form fleet and come to kick our ass, we even stopped timer and waited.

No one ever came.

Listen to this guy. If one side has a clear superiority in a plex, the other side will likely not bother engaging. With PERVS, they had a reputation of fighting only to win, and therefore everybody thought they had something up their sleeve in any plex fight. Therefore, no fight.

You can do anything you want with the plexing mechanic, incentivizing people to fight in plexes, whatever. If one side decides to not lose ships (only engages with a 95% chance of winning), then you're not going to get fights in plexes.

...you'd get fights in plexes if they were worth fighting for.

I think the worthless VP should be LP. Once there is a small incentive to plex, more people will do it. I don't worry about things becoming lopsidded because most people just want a fight anyhow, so if it gets too unbalanced I think people would join the opposing faction- because I've already seen that happen a lot. At least on the Minmatar/Amarr front.

Frankly, there's no easy way of fixing Faction Warfare or FW missions. Both are inherently easy to abuse.

• The Plexing mechanic (the problem):
Let us assume, for a moment, spawn-timers were fixed to evenly distribute them throughout the day and the tiny standings boost was increased and matched with a LP payout that gives an incentive to run them.
Sounds great, doesn't it? I'm all for it, too. Can't wait to see it implemented.

Now, how long exactly do you think it would take for people to use all their alts to see-saw systems? Use Minmatar alt to make system vulnerable and get LP, use Amarr character to capture one Plex, get LP, rinse and repeat.
But wait, maybe we should use a notification system so other people interfere? Great idea!! Except.. no matter who comes to interfere GÇô one of those characters is in the right faction....

Rewards for PvP (a proposal):

I think it would be good to offer greater rewards to people who actually manage to shoot down opposing faction members. Unfortunately, what this means is that we first need a working Insurance system, that correctly calculates a ship's worth (yes, that should include t2 and t3). And then we deny FW players access to it, because no insurance company would want a customer who's actively engaged in warfare with thousands of other maniacs. O_o
What we give them instead is bounties for opposing faction members rated at 80% of a ship's worth. Say a fleet of 5 people kills an Abaddon worth 140 million ISK. 80% is about 112 million, divided by 5 makes an ISK payout of 22.4 million per player.
Again, Incursion mechanics could be utilized to ensure only eligible members of the main contributing fleet are rewarded in this fashion.

Not receiving insurance sounds harsh, at first, especially for new players. In fact, I think it is the other way around: New players flying frigates will have a much easier time replacing them, while having the opportunity to fund those doing actual PvP. This overall encourages the idea of flying ships that offer a nice bang for your buck.


If these changes are implemented, FW missions could be balanced in terms of difficulty and LP payout somewhat reduced, and things would be peachy. Why? Because now there would be added incentive for people to be out Plexing all over the place, and killing opposing faction members, both of which increases pressure on mission-runners. Problem solved.
[/list]

The problem is you only need one character (say Amarr) and one alt (Minmatar). You run a complex for rewards, and a notification goes out. Now three things can happen:

1. No one comes - you cap the plex and get the reward.
2. Minmatar come - you use your Minmatar alt and get the reward.
3. Amarr come - you use your Amarr character and get the reward.

In theory, both Amarr and Minmatar could come and fight each other. Even if that happens, all you have to do is wait until the fight is over, pick the character of the side that won, and get the reward.

If they don't want you to be there, sure, they could kill your insured t1 frigate - but how often do they do that before they're locked out of high-sec? Not to mention GCC makes moving the fleet more dangerous.

......On the other hand, as you said: It would encourage smart piloting (and I don't just mean "blobbing" here, I mean good scouting in small-scale warfare and such) .....

When we defended caldari systems i used 6 accounts at same time.

All were paid accounts.

Better imo is just to let T2 frigs into minor plexes. Especially since CCP has indicated they consider faction frigs to be 'better' than T2

No. This will just ruin things. If you take sov, everyone will be flying your ships (offensive or defensive) and when you lose it the other race's ships will be used. This will REMOVE variation to the pvp...

Never experienced ECM abuse as a major problem while plexing to be honest, a lot worse in "open space" fights but that is the Eve norm I reckon.

*UPDATE* - .... NOTE - This is a list of issues, not a list of solutions. I think we all agree on the issues - so let this be the concrete message that gets sent, even if we don't all agree on how it should be fixed.

I will continue to update this trend list, as a resource for the CSM to bring with them to the summit, in a concise form they can present to CCP on our behalf. Please continue to share feedback if you want something bumped onto the trending issues list.

Top Trending Faction Warfare Quick Fixes - "the little stuff"

.....
2.) Pirate frigates widely considered too powerful to be included in a plex designed for tech 1 frigates and destroyers. Faction Frigates make sense for Faction Warfare, but if interceptors are banned than Dramiels and Daredevils should be as well. ......

......
2.) Capping plexes is too easy. Circling a button is boring, and doesnGÇÖt lead to engaging combat.

......

Caerain - I updated the blurb about plexing to better reflect the views of the greater FW community - upon reviewing the relevant threads most are split on how to fix the plex situation, roughly half favor beefing up or balancing the NPC difficulty, adjusting the AI to avoid speedtanking, others like yourself favor elimination of PVE entirely.

Either way, the mechanics inside the plex are clearly something that needs attention, everyone agrees on that.

I could care less whether FW is fixed to my liking at this point, I just want to see progress as soon as possible and am trying to work with the CSM to give them what they've asked for going into the summit.

The five points each under "little fixes" and "big ideas" are among the most repeated suggestions for improvement that have been shared, though obviously there will still be some individuals that don't feel those are issues, even amongst the most vocal on the forums. Everyone's feedback here is valuable though, so definitely keep sharing your thoughts. It's impossible to obtain a 100% consensus on any given talking point, but that doesn't mean there aren't some common themes amongst the fix suggestions. NPC issues in plexes / missions are one of the oldest items on the to-do list, and even had a CSM resolution backing it historically, so I've included it on the list for now.

I refuse to be swayed by the idea that we are an obscure minority, and that Incarna somehow trumps FW in terms of fan popularity. I really think that most players have simply given up speaking up based on CCP's history of ignoring the issue, and that there is a huge base of players like Kinis Deren here that would welcome a healthy, functioning, FW system in lowsec. The past CSM resolutions were all passed because of huge player support for FW fixes, back when you could vote in support of proposals. Eventually the situation got so bad that the proposals were no longer about what to fix, but about the lack of attention and more importantly total lack of communication with players about FW.

I think now, its not a minority of players who want FW fixed, its a minority of players who are willing to fight for such fixes. And when we give up, that is the moment it really will become an abandoned feature.

This.

From earlier estimates made a week ago or so the estimated dps was around 700 for a full gang cat and around 600 for a coercer. It goes down from there, but suffice it to say, they are going to ****.

Although they will be a great deal stronger, look forward to the new fad in fw frig fits, TD's on EVERYTHING.

One more thing that bothers me is that I can go deep in enemy territory and do plexes there. Borders should have a meaning. Limit defensive plex spawn to 3 jumps from nearest enemy occupied system. So that fighting will occur at border systems and you need to push borders to advance in enemy territory.

Whats wrong with making dessies stronger? They're cheap, and more accessable to newer players, everyone can fly them. What FW needs is new blood and not 100 bitter vets that ignore all the new players who end up leaving the militia because everything thinks said person is a spy, or isnt worth taking into their fleet.

...
Basically MANY neutral people come into Minmatar low sec systems. Most of these people are either sekret Amarrian sympathisers or just look at us funny. For self defence reasons, many of these people are pre-emptively killed to preserve the security of our systems and/or prevent them supporting the Amarr.

Learn to humour

It's sounds lovely, but can't ever make a reward for kiling opposing players apart from loot.

If this idea was ever implemented anyone wanting to repair their sec status would just join the militia, make an alt in the opposing militia, then kill the alt over and over again.

All systems that reward players for killing members of the opposing faction are open to this abuse.

This is why the reward system must be plexes or missions

Everyone, please speak out in opposition to the CSM's handling of our discussion here.

Apparently, we are a "little thing" to be tacked onto a discussion about wormholes. If I am mistaken about the CSM's attitude about us, than I hope they clarify.

I won't say much more than that, I'm pretty upset at the moment. But please, focus your efforts on asking the CSM to make Faction Warfare a seperate and focused discussion, not a tacked on accessory to a thread about something else. Their handling of the topic belittlles our cause, and will not give it the gravitas necessary to convince CCP that is important enough to be talked about on its own merits once again.

Also, please do NOT fill this thread with a list of fixes. That work has already been done. If the CSM hasn't read the thread I am posting with, there's no point wasting your keystrokes repeating yourselves there.

What we need to do now is rally and convince the CSM to seperate FW from wormholes, and give the subject its own discussion.

Thank you all for your support.

From today's patch notes, which can be found here:



We'll have to wait to see how this works in practice, but if this is what it sounds like it's awesome! At last we're getting something, even if it's only a start!

I've created a post about how we are going to engage with CSM/CCP post crucile that can be found here.

Please continue to use this thread around improvement ideas - the other thread is to address the lack for CSM/CCP understanding/interaction with the FW community...

Which part of I am intending the new thread to focus on engaging with CCP/CSM post Crucible and to discuss getting a FW CSM representative do I need to explain. This isn't the same ground. The same ground would be discussing the broken features...

They merely increased the amount of plexes available so systems will be flipped in droves by the people who have alts/manpower to burn. With one simple change they have managed to make the plexing scene even more of a travesty in a way that favours the use of alts to an even greater degree .. although not if you happen to be Gallente or Amarr because the missile spam they face still requires gangs to clear/survive in most cases..

Plexing activity increase is temporary. The system itself is still very much broken so the massive dis-/-advantages that were present before are still there .. just more cases now. In a few months they will be used to farm standings for the various freebies and alts will likely be recycled after payout of said freebies.

One character .. ONE BLOODY CHARACTER can now make TWO systems vulnerable PER DAY (if unopposed and an insomniac). Compare that to the silly null monkeys who have up to two full days or more of buffer for just about everything .. governments/empires are not known for their efficiency but holy crap, taking it a bit to the extreme don't you think?

They have pretty much made occupancy more pointless than before. .

Having now played with the 30m respawn 'fix' to FW, I think this may finally push me away from plexing completely. Until actual fixes or atleast some balances are applied, there is no point.

One of the biggest problems with the plexing, pointless as it is right now, is the huge glut of plexes that spawn after downtime. That has not changed, all they did was allow for a thin amount of fighting to continue later in the day. It is still an issue of have a strong post DT crew or do not bother. Hours of pre-DT work end up being completely being undone by a handful of alts.

System occupation has at this point stopped really representing anything. Atleast pre-'fix' it showed the dedication of those few FW players that still put some measure the little bit of pride that could be gained.

It will taper off in a few weeks and return to alts-online for most systems. The only place where I can see it maintaining a higher than before plexing activity is in central/key/pipe systems .. but then again the overall PvP activity will not be increased as it is already there, it will merely move into plexes and away from gates/stations.

Yes Cearain, the 50+ plexes in rotation in the DT-shuffle are still around so it is still a matter of controlling the 2 hours post-DT .. only difference is that some of the VP damage done can theoretically be repaired before next DT.
In reality it is playing out exactly as I feared, whomever has the alts/pilots to burn can flip systems at a ridiculous rate with no real counter available as manpower is everything ..

They stuck a Wunderbaum into the turd to mask the stench, but it is still a turd.

Nope, not hand wringing at all. The list posted at the beginning of the thread is simply a summary of the topmost issues, as presented by the players, over the years they've been providing feedback. ....

....lots of ideas of how things spawn....
PS: Still keen on the border concept, just not relevant to spawn mechanics which you asked about

Oy! I made my snide post AFTER you made your Huola blurp!!!

Someone suggested a boarder mechanic, where at least one adjacent system would need to be owned before that system could be taken. Similarly, if a system was cut off from all adjacently owned systems, properties in that system would change (like reduced enemy plex timers).

I have to say that I really like this idea because of the potential for concentrated fighting. And at the same time, I don't think it would concentrate it to the point where it would generate problems. With the size of the FW battlefield, there would still be several fronts, and each of them could shift in interesting ways and keep tactics fresh. Mix this with some form of Hans' proposal to affect stations, and the war could get exciting... imagine that!!! heheheh.

One other comment I had was on players changing over to the winning side if they are given advantages in owned ststems...

I really don't foresee that being an issue. Sure I've seen some people change sides for ***** and giggles, but the VAST majority of players I've interacted with have been loyal to one side, just because of the nature of the play-style involved. You create enemies and friends, and those generally don't change because you'd prefer basic advantages.

This also speaks to blobbing. It was commented that people will flood the winning side and steam-roll, and that if you change the plexing timer based on players inside the plex, that people will just blob up. Aside from the fact that I don't think it will happen nearly as much as is feared, I say "who cares!".

If I don't want in a blob, I don't join it. If I don't want to be blobbed, I avoid it..

Players will do what they want, and as long as there are opportunities to stay small, people will take them and that style will stay active indefinitely. That's really what we're talking about here, promoting the small stuff.

....if you really want to get into FORCING anti-blob play, we need to discuss limiting the number of ships from each opposing side that are allowed into a given plex. Which is something I brought up recently, and think it could be really good.

A few things here, and a few things from Hans' proposal I wanted to comment on:

PvE is still an issue, but I don't think the solution is very complicated. The problems are simple:
-PvP ships (particularly passive tanks) are not ideal for plexes
-individual alts can speed-tank them

To fix both problems, rebalance the NPCs. Make there be ONE set of them to clear out, and balance their total EHP so that (for example) 2 players with PvP ships, appropriate for the plex size, could wipe them out fast enough to avoid screwing up their tanks. Also give them webs, or some other anti-frig buff.

If done correctly, the result should be that:
-PvP ships can steam-roll the NPCs without changing out your fit, and then be free to PvP
-the rebalanced NPCs prevent single alts in cheap ships from running larger plexes

Also (depending on balance) it could promote small groups by keeping it practical as a solo'er, but making that much more smooth with a partner.

Remember that if we remove NPCs entirely, that it will be even EASIER for alts to run the plexing war. It needs to be harder for them, and easier for PvPers. This may not be a flawless proposal, but I'm sure many will agree on the results that need to be achieved.

Ok I agree that the npc part is tricky. I think ccp can do away with them completely, but I agree your concerns are valid. I like the idea that the missiles would have increased explosion velocity. Along the same lines consider these ideas.

1) Have an "alarm beacon" spawn say at 3minutes and 6 minutes for a minor and say 3 times for a medium 4 times for a major. f th alarm is not destroyed in 2 minutes the rats as described below will spawn. The minor alarm will tank 50 dps. The medium wil lank 150 dps. The major (bc and down) will tank 350 and the major open will tank 500. These are rough numbers. They are pretty low because not all fw pilots have top skills. Moreover some pvp fits do not do allot of dps. For example a merlin might have 2 neuts insead of rockets launchers.


2) Make it so the all the rats have *lots* of target painters and missiles. *No other ewar* (edit I suppose webs would be ok) The target painters and missiles would mean that they can not be speed tanked by fast frigates.

This would make it so pvpers could still kill the rats without having to fit a lame pve tank. Yet noob ships and t1 frigates would not be able to tank the npcs and run the major sites.

I think there are many ways that NPCs could be rebalanced to make gameplay better. The problems are simple enough. Don't penalize PvP fits, and nerf the effectiveness of alts. Any method (be it one of our visions or not) that will make this happen, will be welcome.

As far as timer speed, number restrictions, and boarders go... I feel that you (Cearain, and maybe others) have a somewhat irrational fear of blobs... You manage to find fault in many suggestions because blobing could theoretically get in the way of fun. While you may have had more experiences than I that validate these concerns, I just can't believe that it's enough of a problem to completely invalidate the ideas. And in the case of the last few posts, I only see ways of reducing blobbing, not promoting it.

As examples:

In the theoretical boarder mechanic, I can not imagine that one militia will be able to blob up all boarder systems for hours on end and be invulnerable, AND completely squash all small gang activity (especially if number-restrictions on plexes were in place... see next).

In the theoretical number-restricted plex, if your small gang is inside, then what does it matter that the enemy is blobbing the accel gate?.... isn't that an example of how it PREVENTS blobbing? The large numbers that the enemy has can not all enter the plex and BLOB you. Your smaller gang can easily sneak around them and enter subsequent plexes, and remain safe from being blobbed. Their only option would be to match your numbers and give you a more reasonable fight.

I do have to comment that your ideal fight-per-hour statistic sounds unrealistic to me. Not by a whole lot, but your desires could only really be fulfilled by a genuine, dedicated, alliance-tournament-style arena mechanic (which I actually think there should be some form of... not for FW though). Personally, I'm satisfied by one truly quality fight in a 2-hour session, or a few decent ones plus a gank or two..

News?

Thanks for sharing that Cearain!! I've been, ummmm preoccupied the last couple of days so I haven't been keeping up with my usual blogmongering and forumwhoring. And my preoccupation has absolutely NOTHING to do with SW:TOR. I swear it!!

Errrm, check the date and content of that blog.

It is 30 months (2.5yrs) old, was the 'filler' patch that populated the LP store not much else and was as far as I know the last "major" work that was done on FW up until now.

In short: It says diddly squat of what may be heading our way .. just sayin'

Othran I think it was brought a problem regarding using sov status as a barrier to light, easy enough for renter alliances or any alliance really to be 'space-less' while still having complete access to everything thanks to the deep blue sea of null.
Setup an alt alliance to hold the actual sov and all mains can go blob FW to death or create the greatest mission-bomber swarm the world has ever known.

You're absolutely right, it doesnt solve anything.

I'm not saying that Faction Warfare should become just like nullsec - though allowing sov-holding alliances into FW, or the reverse, will do just that.

Faction Warfare SHOULD have a gameplay identity and feel that is an alternative to nullsec, and is focused on casual, pickup, ship to ship combat and fleet / gang work rather than all the trappings of advanced large-scale resource management.

I'm simply saying that its a two way street - IF CCP decides to go through with this without requiring the giving up of Sovereignty, than we better be able to put our name and Faction ownership back onto nullsec as well. That is the only way we stand to benefit from allowing Alliances with already superior resources from nullsec to join our ranks in the first place.

But you're right. That just makes us a clone of null, and doesnt fundamentally improve the system at all. It very well could destroy the unique identity of Faction Warfare gameplay if the core system isn't iterated upon first BEFORE the alliances are allowed it.

Yes, they can. No, it doesn't change that problem. This is still a big issue, which I personally should be addressed first before we expand the militia rosters.

If we fix the mission system to encourage PvP that ISNT just bombers and inty's (just give all the NPC's more target painters and missiles regardless of race) we can effectively prevent Alliances from joining up just to tap an extra source of income.

If the Alliances are allowed in before missions, plexing, and the other core mechanical issues breaking Faction Warfare are addressed, we will most certainly see some that enlist specifically to allow their members access to lucrative missions whether they live and PvP in the region or not.

Very unlikely, but all those that can when it launches probably will .. you see, it is 100% extra for them. Expect many others to setup splinter alliances or work standings up ...

why would they do it? What's their motivation? Dropping supers on every WT gang? They can do that already, it's not like super pilots need to keep their sec status up.

As for missions, they most certainly are PvP however you slice it. The minute those missions appear on an overview, they've changed from being a discreet income opportunity to becoming a giant "COME ATTACK ME, I'M DOWN FOR PEW" sign. I still farm missions in bombers and I've never ONCE gone on a run where I haven't been actively pursued along the way. You MUST know PvP basics (defensive scanning, threat assessment, manual piloting, etc) if you want to run the missions and be successful. Faction Warfare should provide more lucrative rewards than highsec, but militia pilots should always face enemy hostility and intervention as well. We could be making the most money because we successfully thwarted our PvP attackers - right now the way you make the most isk is by evading any combat whatsoever and by doing your own missioning. I've logged in to see several corpmates all solo farming because its more efficient than teaming up and working together. Needless to say that's a bit borked.

Its too funny, I almost put all this into my other post in the Zombie Kitten thread, starting out with "And I know what you're going to say about missions, Cearain!" but eliminated it for the sake of brevity (not that any my posts are that brief).

I know you're all about the PvP - but the cool thing about Faction Warfare is that it has great potential to mix the two if the poor, outdated NPC AI was balanced properly. Players don't HAVE to choose one or the other - nothing is more satisfying than killing an enemy where he's lost more than just the one ship - he's lost precious time he needs to stay resupplied in the long run.

TL:DR - Plexing should be all about PvP in gangs. Missions should invite PvP in gangs. ALL of Faction Warfare should revolve around PvP in gangs. No need to keep saying "This should only be PvE, this should only be PvP", you can certainly have a world of both if the NPC AI gets revisited and rebalanced.

There is no need for them to put whole corps in now as missions are so ridiculously easy, but I am willing to bet that a majority of the mission alts we are drowning in are operated from the blue-sea .. hell, with the sorry state of null at present FW will probably be used as an overflow camp when the primary null-farms are filled to capacity.

What good do you see coming out of regular gangs ballooning from the current 10-30 to 60-100 as population quintuples (low estimate). FW consists of a mere 170 systems with the HQ-pipes on either front being 5 systems long or less .. do you expect the tourists to spread out nice and even like .. do you expect them to play 'fair'?

FW becomes a resort. Null are being offered a time-share with all the amenities to entertain and thrill, at no down payment to speak of .. in fact the time-share has faulty ATM that spits out money to anyone who pass by.

There is no upside .. none that I can see at any rate.

PS: Forums ate my post so above is condensed
PPS/Edit: The "cant enter 1/2 of high-sec" argument is DOA. Everyone, their mother, her dog and its fleas has alts running errands in high-sec .. that was even the case 3 years ago when I was in null and I don't see why that has changed on iota.

Would love it if it was possible to create intra-militia alliances, if only to have better control with 'SPAIZ!' and a central place to plan/scheme/strategise that is not 3rd party (ie. web forums).

Wouldn't that only apply if the newcomers spread out and/or plex? Look at the militia's now .. majority never leaves the hub-pipes and plexers are still very much a minority. Afraid you are fooling yourself if you think that the addition of hundreds of active pilots will not cause blobs as long as all systems are in play.

Perhaps if/when plexing in itself is revamped, but we are looking at a 4-5 month period between alliances are let in and the summer patch hits, that is a long time if it means daily and constant blobs/camps .. and I frankly have doubts as to what they can/will do with plexing in that time as it is essentially the backbone of the FW mechanic.

But yeah, time will tell .. not getting my hopes up though

Being able to kick spais would be awesome, though probably problematic to put into practice - how do you get a militia wide vote? is it just a certain number of votes?

I'll use an example: Lost (Griffin) and I (Punisher) came across an open minor in Sifilar I think it was, we start timer just as three (3) Thrashers show on short range .. instinct says run, yes?
Due to an aborted speed tanking attempt by a minnie, there was an NPC group within 30k of entrance so we decide to stay with me on warp-in and Lost keeping timer running .. 2nd-3rd Thrasher are intermittently jammed by Lost while I work on the first who can't overcome my active tank thanks to NPC eWar .. End result: 3 Trash cans and the biggest damn adrenaline high I have ever experienced.
In short: They allow one to fight against superior numbers/ships .. sometimes...

Anecdotal evidence cannot, by its very nature, be overwhelming. Fact is that NPC both hurts and benefits PvP opportunities in roughly equal measure .. the current slant towards 'hurts' is due to differences in eWar (ie. NPC balance).

Given that standard - Cearain's arguments about mixing the two are quite sound. But I think we limit ourselves when we say the two MUST be kept separate at all times, under any circumstances - this doesnt have to be the case if the AI is adjusted so that NPC's closely emulate players (though they'll never be as clever or devious). By bringing NPC hitpoints, behavior, and numbers more in line with what players will encounter from other players in a plex situation, for example, they could *potentially* be a filler used to fight against when players aren't around. .

Pfft, I originally proposed it as a solution 1.5-2 years ago when there was a lot of debate about NPC balance, just makes all kinds of sense to me at least.

But thank you nonetheless

**CSM suggests CCP use FW as the testbed for nullsec sov overhauls, since we're a bit smaller scale.

This was not a CCP suggestion. It was a CSM suggestion. Lets not jump to hasty conclusions here.

It's very possible CCP couldn't use FW as a proper testbed, as they may have a very different idea in mind for a nullsec overhaul planned already.

All that comment was a reflection on is that the *CSM* sees FW as nullsec-lite. That is NOT necessarily how CCP sees us, nor should it be taken that way.

Are you sure the Nullsec CSM isn't calling the shots, Hans?

From page 23 of 44 on the minutes;

Yup, CSM has been respectful both of the limitations of their own knowledge, and willing to communicate our ideas to them, even if they offered some of their own apparently.

The Mittani in particular has been open about saying Faction Warfare needs love, as well as casual PvP in general.

I dont see them as the enemy. They may not be the best people in place to speak about our feature in particular, but hopefully the upcoming elections will change that.

I just don't understand how one I search the forums for Faction warfare I get hundreds of pages of information on FW from the people that use it. Yet none of what was discussed was any more than loosely based on things a majority of FW users want. I felt that ether we have all be using a noob-to-null devise improperly, or that they want this dead and will just change it to what ever we say we don't want.
We say casual they say drama
We say small scale they say alliance
We say not like null-lite they say nulls test bed
We say quik PvP they say popularity contest
And then theres this money thing I do want what we do and plexing to mean some thing but if you let alliances in and put money for having it in to play......

In the end I feel like FW as a hole is going some were i don't want to follow.

I see no need to be hostile to the idea that FW and nullsec sov could both use similar mechanics. ....

This is true, but that can still be a pain if the system is large and requires multiple warps just to d-scan all the plexes. Also, keep in mind that I'm not talking about reducing the total number of plexes that can spawn in a day or per hour, only the number that can be open and warpable simultaneously in a single system..

I also question the association between FW and casual PvP. Personally, I find small skirmish warfare to be much more demanding on individual pilots where the weakest link is quickly weeded out. In general I think more FW pilots have been exposed to close fights than much of the PvP that happens in null which is heavily dependent on fleet composition, logistics (not the ship type) and pure attrition. From my experience in 0.0, only a fraction of the population regularly engages in solo or skirmish pvp, and usually only fights during large fleets or CTAs.

The CSM telling CCP to use FW as a test bed for null is not at all surprising to me tbh.

Why doesn't FW have a full representative on the CSM anyways?

Am I a complete idiot for considering that maybe a revamped nullsec sov system and revamped FW occupancy system could share elements of mechanics? I would suggest that the consensus is that both systems are broken or in need of more development. If CCP is able to produce a mechanic that can be applicable to both, then why not?

.....

CCP Dropbear has done some very cool in-character Live Events recently - I could see him concocting some really cool PvP-based scenarios once or twice a year that give FW pilots something fun to do, that also enhances the Faction War story for the rest of the players of the game to enjoy.

How many militia raids on urban centres/capitals have you heard of in the entirety of human history?

I know the biggest predictable fear will be the side-flipping argument, but I think in the long run if Faction Warfare becomes enticing overall as a feature and invigorates the community again while drawing in more pilots there will always be a core group in each militia that doesnt flip-flop....

This has been the critical problem - CCP is progressing forward with a slate of FW changes that were discussed by the developers and the CSM, neither of whom have demonstrated that they have taken the least bit of time to ask the community what we want.

Its as if CCP feels like they did their due diligence, by talking with the CSM. But those of us in Faction Warfare know better than most that talking with the CSM does NOT constitute "listening to players" if the CSM isn't willing to defend our values and propositions. Instead, they proposed ridiculous ideas for the next set of Faction Warfare iterations that have no bearing on what players have been asking for, and exposed their own bias in the process.

Can you drop a link to your CSM thread so we can check it out?

2. Remove bunker; add three hour vulnerable period before system automatically flips (Why three you ask?).
- Announce system vulnerability (Navy are saps, so think of it as a distress call) to holding side.
No blitzing possible, attacker instead has the arduous task of preventing the enemy from taking a plex for what is a significant amount of time .. should yield some ferocious plex fights.

So once political office is aspired to the base/origin is neglected?

Eve being a real-life simulation is all fine and dandy, but really .. had to resort to the inferior search to even find the damn thing. You may be a minne and all, but surely the taste of freedom has invoked some sort of integrity in your decrepit soul!

Any last minute discussion/points of interest to raise with CCP @ fanfest???

5.) Lack of highly visible alert or intel system for when territory is threatened. If Faction Warfare is meant to deliver pickup and play PvP, an alert system (Captain's Quarters TV screen?) would get fights much faster than relying on aimless wandering patrols. Even just adding alerts in real time in the militia office tab (like POS fuel notifications in your mail, or broadcast history in fleets) would be great and increase frequency of PvP fights. *FIXED!! Brand new Faction Warfare UI coming in Inferno]

Top Trending Major Underlying Issues "The Big Stuff"


3.) Faction Warfare missions easily farmable in a Stealth Bomber. Result is missions that encourage PvP as intended (by nature of being on overview), but do not encourage diversity of ship types or cooperative gangs to complete. GÇ£PvPGÇ¥ that surrounds current mission system is primarily limited to interceptors chasing bombers. NERFED!! Station Lockouts coming with Inferno will drastically reduce mission farming for the losing faction, forcing them to PvP in order to access agents again

4.) Imbalanced EWAR fielded by mission NPC's means some missions are easier to run than others, resulting in imbalanced market value for faction items and causes certain militias to be flooded with mission farming alts. *CHANGES COMING!! Inferno brings a scalable LP store depending on Victory Conditions