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Brolly
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Posted - 2005.05.12 16:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Brolly on 12/05/2005 16:38:10
Okay, so we now have COSMOS, NWO and all this other content comming our way, but what about the old problems whi need adressing?.
I'm comming from the science angle, i'm not gonna whinge (too much  ) about the tech lottery, overpriced labs...even though that is a bit of a ****er for those wishing to persue this 'career', it would be nice if all these skills were worth something.
It would be pretty nifty if all these tech 2 science skills actually did something more than just being a time sink. When are we going to see research engineering or duplicate item brought into the game or even limited tech 2 bpo's?
I have been playing for 2 years (on and off) and nothing radically has changed in the research area whereas other areas of the game have has so much attention...all of us scientists have had is more crap to deal with, limited or no labs, people hoarding labs at stupid prices, massive price hike followed buy more labs (too little too late).
When tech 2 was comming out I actually got kinda excitted, maybe I could actually do something more than material and procductivity research (huzzah!, how excitting)
In short, Could you fine people @ ccp please divert your attention to what could be a worthwhile aspect of the game before all these grand plans which you have schemed up.
Please
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Alain Josviar
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Posted - 2005.05.12 17:13:00 -
[2]
I agree.
Can anyone explain why the T2 blueprints are being held onto by CCP like thier daughters . . uh . . erm . . nvm. The only effect it has is add to the T2 module and ship inflation, which is astronomical at the moment. They need to put every BP out on the market and shift the focus of research agents to improving the stats of the modules that can be created through the BPs. [halfbakedidea]Say at so many LPs you can turn a basic widget BP into named widget BP.[/halfbakedidea]
The solution to research and production slot hoarding/cost is to limit the number you can rent to how many you can use as dictated by your skills and add a tax of several magnitudes to any that you're not actively using.
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Seribus
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Posted - 2005.05.12 17:18:00 -
[3]
I have to disagree here. I don't ever want to see original T2 BPs on the market...period. Only those that are made by other players as copies should ever be available.
I should note: this is coming from someone who has never had a T2 item beyond T2 Mining Lasers. The only T2 lotto I have ever won occured during a period when I could not get online so I was never able to claim it.
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Carla Jackson
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Posted - 2005.05.12 17:19:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Alain Josviar
Can anyone explain why the T2 blueprints are being held onto by CCP like thier daughters . . uh . . erm . . nvm. The only effect it has is add to the T2 module and ship inflation, which is astronomical at the moment.
Because they're not supposed to be throwaway trash bought off the market like T1 items. They're trying to foster the different economic levels that make real-world economies interesting by adding another type of commodity that most people won't be able to make themselves.
Essentially, they're supposed to be inflated because they're just that good.
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Karazaan
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Posted - 2005.05.12 17:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Alain Josviar
I agree.
Can anyone explain why the T2 blueprints are being held onto by CCP like thier daughters . . uh . . erm . . nvm. The only effect it has is add to the T2 module and ship inflation, which is astronomical at the moment. They need to put every BP out on the market and shift the focus of research agents to improving the stats of the modules that can be created through the BPs. [halfbakedidea]Say at so many LPs you can turn a basic widget BP into named widget BP.[/halfbakedidea]
The solution to research and production slot hoarding/cost is to limit the number you can rent to how many you can use as dictated by your skills and add a tax of several magnitudes to any that you're not actively using.
? I think you should RE-READ the Cosmos blog to see that tech 3 will be even harder to build with stuff coming (or built) in specific regions which only a few people will be able to do because it will specialize even more. So don't expect price to drop on NEW stuff...
BTW: all stuff on market (except basic skills and some trades goods) are still coming only from players. So is tech 2... That's the goal of the game, a player driven everything that don't colapse! |
Carla Jackson
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Posted - 2005.05.12 17:25:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Karazaan
BTW: all stuff on market (except basic skills and some trades goods) are still coming only from players. So is tech 2... That's the goal of the game, a player driven everything that don't colapse!
Not true. There's NPC speed-bump prices for items that seem exorbitant (or stingy, pick one) now, but are in place in case player prices go through the roof (or floor, depending if it's a buyer's or seller's market).
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Alain Josviar
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Posted - 2005.05.12 18:06:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Carla Jackson
Originally by: Alain Josviar
Can anyone explain why the T2 blueprints are being held onto by CCP like thier daughters . . uh . . erm . . nvm. The only effect it has is add to the T2 module and ship inflation, which is astronomical at the moment.
Because they're not supposed to be throwaway trash bought off the market like T1 items. They're trying to foster the different economic levels that make real-world economies interesting by adding another type of commodity that most people won't be able to make themselves.
Essentially, they're supposed to be inflated because they're just that good.
Anyone who has the basic industry skill can manufacture T1 components. T2 components require advanced science skills, high end ores and components only obtained through pos's. The notion of T2 modules/ships becoming throw away junk because of putting the BPs on the market needs to have their head examined and/or doesn't know squat about market mechanics; or holds a bunch of T2 BPs even though they say they don't and don't want that nasty word 'competition' to enter their vocabulary.
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Xarnece
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Posted - 2005.05.12 18:57:00 -
[8]
But if tech II prints are on the market or more available...how would people be able to get 30 mill for a mod that costs what....500k? to build? Now that wouldnt be very fair would it...
On another note...I would like to see a bit more depth to the whole production aspect of the game. Anyone can make a character and have perfect manufacturing skills in less than a month. Everything else in Eve takes time, you have to specialize in it to become good at it except manufacturing. I dont feel that a one month old person should be able to build and sell battleships at the same level as myself or someone else that has more time in the game. This just seems like an area that could be made so much better....I guess ship builders dont whine enough on the forum to get it changed...
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Miner's Bane
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Posted - 2005.05.12 19:10:00 -
[9]
CCP needs to start releasing larger quantities of the BPOs that have been out for over a year.
The owners have had forever to price-gouge and make back their investment (of rolling a natural 20, player intellegence and work be damned).
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ElCapitan
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Posted - 2005.05.12 19:19:00 -
[10]
personally i think t2 system is fine.
if you have no luck geting the bp through lottery, then make money and buy it from somebody who is lucky. I see no problem with that, there are plenty of t2 bpos for sale all the time.
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Brolly
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Posted - 2005.05.12 19:37:00 -
[11]
/me tries to pull thread from ebil tech 2, the bane of the science community
besides tech 2, it would still be nice to use duplicate item or reverse engineer and buy this have a SYSTEM of how it will work, not random attemtps before you luckily get saomething out of it.
There is so much scope as what could be done in the science field IMHO CCP are fools not to actually seriously see what potential lies there. If CCP were a pupil and I was a teacher marking it's papers i'd give it an F and hold him back a year
I have nearly all science skills for tech 2 research Mc Doofer (I enjoy a good joke as the next man ), but seriously, the time invested in these skills should surely have some use as apposed to a lottery.
If I wanted to do a lottery i'd pay ú1 every week...as apposed to ú12 a month, thankies.
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.05.12 19:53:00 -
[12]
I think most people revolt at the idea within any economic system that LUCK rather than hard work\skill should decide who are the winners and who is not.
Right now, luck is KING in Eve for determining the richest of the rich....ie, you win a good t2 bpo in the lotto, YOU become a member of the Elite Richest of the Rich Club....and you might just be a 8 lb waterhead, hockey helmet wearing, carebear who has never put his pasty finger on the trigger of a gun in hostility towards anyone ever.....
How are making those types rich accomplishing anything when the people who actually know how to play the game are kept out of that club simply because of poor luck?
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Jockey
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Posted - 2005.05.12 19:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Brolly
If I wanted to do a lottery i'd pay ú1 every week...as apposed to ú12 a month, thankies.
Same here - tbh, I think those who went into science should be able to get the SP back, due to CCP just ignorring the fact its usless.
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There's plenty of room for all of Gods creatures...
Right next to the mashed potatoes |
Karazaan
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Posted - 2005.05.12 23:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cummilla
Right now, luck is KING in Eve for determining the richest of the rich....ie, you win a good t2 bpo in the lotto, YOU become a member of the Elite Richest of the Rich Club....and you might just be a 8 lb waterhead, hockey helmet wearing, carebear who has never put his pasty finger on the trigger of a gun in hostility towards anyone ever.....
It might seem like that but it is not, for a very long time, how could a lone player get zyd or mega? Only by buying it from price gouging old players?
Quote:
How are making those types rich accomplishing anything when the people who actually know how to play the game are kept out of that club simply because of poor luck?
Know how to play? That's exactly why it's not on market, so a new player doing some research can get a bpo of value.
Sure it's the best way to not have the Everything effect where bigger players prevent new one from having fun by keeping key or ressource that they need.
It's luck, so at least, you have the same "near-nil" chance than me if you do research, if you are not, it's clearly NIL. |
Exarch
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Posted - 2005.05.12 23:16:00 -
[15]
If T2 bpos were open for anyone to buy they would be junk in a day. It will be as bad as the T1 market where most items sell below the mineral costs.
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Ki'esha Lorri'en
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Posted - 2005.05.12 23:49:00 -
[16]
Quote:
It would be pretty nifty if all these tech 2 science skills actually did something more than just being a time sink. When are we going to see research engineering or duplicate item brought into the game or even limited tech 2 bpo's?
A large part of my income is from refining and production, having stepped into research for a short period of time, then stopped as it clearly wasn't paying out at as well for the time invested. It would be rewarding if research and science skills had some financial gain associted with the effort, or at least offered a stepping stone to reliable earnings. I'm all for reverse engineering being implemented, then a scientist could serve a better niche as part of the economy.
Quote:
Odd objects attract fire. You are odd. -Murphy
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Fuse
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Posted - 2005.05.12 23:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Exarch
If T2 bpos were open for anyone to buy they would be junk in a day. It will be as bad as the T1 market where most items sell below the mineral costs.
I'm not saying they should be open I'm just saying they should have a limit to RPs before you can attain them in say 3 years. At the end of the 3 years you should be able to cash out your research points to obtain that obsolete Miner 2 or Cap Recharge 2. Denying an entire player base for a chance to get what they want is wrong.
0.o It's not you... no wait it is you. |
Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2005.05.12 23:59:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 13/05/2005 00:12:35
i dont think tech 2 should be on market, but i do think that it would be nice to have a way to cash out the rps like the last poster said.
sigh, so much wasted time.
(thats actually a 3 month old pic but im too lasy to update{5 agents now})
this here's mah sig':
My Quote:
"You can call me a carebear all you want, but your still an arrogant slimeball" |
Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.05.13 00:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: ElCapitan
personally i think t2 system is fine.
if you have no luck geting the bp through lottery, then make money and buy it from somebody who is lucky. I see no problem with that, there are plenty of t2 bpos for sale all the time.
I absolutely disagree with that, people with intelligence and organisation should trump "luck" every day of the week.
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Exarch
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Posted - 2005.05.13 00:34:00 -
[20]
I'm all for a way to exchange rps for BPCs.
And Gamer i am at nearly 600,000rps between my 5 caldari starship agents and that is just a tiny drop in the bucket.... luckily i got a bpo already.
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Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2005.05.13 00:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Exarch
I'm all for a way to exchange rps for BPCs.
And Gamer i am at nearly 600,000rps between my 5 caldari starship agents and that is just a tiny drop in the bucket.... luckily i got a bpo already.
i reitorate, that pic is 3 months old (i have 5 agents as well and caldari starship 5). but glad you agree anyway.
this here's mah sig':
My Quote:
"You can call me a carebear all you want, but your still an arrogant slimeball" |
Jann Kilik
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Posted - 2005.05.13 00:59:00 -
[22]
I think the R&D aspect of the game should be redesigned to bring it in line with other aspects of the game, ie. you put in the time to get your reward. Basically I think that all BPOs should be available to all players, it's just a matter of determination and patience in order to get one.
The way I see it, BPOs should be like skills in that you need to put time into developing them and they give you the capability to produce an item. Like learning a skill from a book, you would need to perform R&D with an Agent in order to get a BPO. Just like with skills, limit each account to researching a single BPO at a time. Heck, you could even go so far as to limit each account to training a single skill or research a single BPO, but not both.
Higher tech BPOs would have higher skill requirements as well as lower tech BPOs as the foundation for starting your research. Making the requirements for higher level BPOs proportional to their value would force players to specialize in a particular area.
As it is the skills you learn that define your profession, BPOs need to be brought in line with the skill system in order to make Scientist a viable profession.
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Dimning
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Posted - 2005.05.13 07:22:00 -
[23]
I rather like the loyalty point system used for agent offers, and wouldn't mind seeing a parallell system based on the science skills rather than the social skills used for research. The rewards wouldn't have to be BPOs directly, but could also be an entry into a lottery for a particular BPO. I.e. you might get an offer to spend 50000 "science points" on a research project that has a one-in-ten chance of getting you a particular BPO. You could then weigh the chance and decide wether to "put your money down and take your chances" or hang on for a better offer later.
Of course, there should also be other rewards than BPOs that you could be offered. New skills, implants, prototypes (a single tech II or tech III item,) additional skillpoints to a science skill, BPCs and other rewards that would be logical for research/science.
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Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.05.13 07:48:00 -
[24]
I think as someone said implants / new skills etc should be given out more... as for tech II bpo's ...
NO
The lottery system is fine, and in the numbers of bpo's it gives out. Though for love of god someone realease some more Cap Recharger II bpc's or something
Typherin LaiDai
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant' |
Brolly
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Posted - 2005.05.13 09:07:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Brolly on 13/05/2005 09:21:36
See, this is one of the many reasons science in this game sucks, you utter the name and the whole lottery issue pops up which imho IS NOT SCIENCE.
Okay, for example you could have a system of research where you could increase the stats of an object, of course this would lead to other stats maybe deccreasing a touch unless you wanted to add more points to a stat which would take quite a bit of time and money. To save people from having uber items you could cap stats.
Alternatively, use reverse engineer to increase the stats of an object by using the loot table so you basic item could be a modified/local
I still think duplicate item should be in game, obviously there is the concern of people copying the best items in the game and the economy going to **** but this can be avoided by making it a lengthly process INVOLVING SKILLS, not randomness.
In short the point is this. Since the game started every area of the game has had attention, yet science has ALWAYS been and STILL is mineral/production efficiency. Completely forget about tech 2 lottery.
What would be cool if you, on your own or maybe with other players could do something where you could see results and do something constructive with science and it's many skills.
Again, this is NOT about tech 2 but science as a whole.
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Nicholai Pestot
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Posted - 2005.05.13 10:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Exarch
If T2 bpos were open for anyone to buy they would be junk in a day. It will be as bad as the T1 market where most items sell below the mineral costs.
So then i could buy, reprocess and sell off the components of a tech 2 item at a profit, just like i do for those stupidly priced tech 1 items?
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
I have supped the milk of human kindness, and discovered i am lactose intolerant |
Aboath Greydroggen
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Posted - 2005.05.13 11:21:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Aboath Greydroggen on 13/05/2005 11:21:32
Quote:
I rather like the loyalty point system used for agent offers, and wouldn't mind seeing a parallell system based on the science skills rather than the social skills used for research. The rewards wouldn't have to be BPOs directly, but could also be an entry into a lottery for a particular BPO. I.e. you might get an offer to spend 50000 "science points" on a research project that has a one-in-ten chance of getting you a particular BPO. You could then weigh the chance and decide wether to "put your money down and take your chances" or hang on for a better offer later.
That's the best thought I read sofar on the research agents. Like the idea. Would indeed give research agents some more flesh so to speak, instead of beeing just ignorables while waiting on a lottery win.
Quote:
See, this is one of the many reasons science in this game sucks, you utter the name and the whole lottery issue pops up which imho IS NOT SCIENCE.
Okay, for example you could have a system of research where you could increase the stats of an object, of course this would lead to other stats maybe deccreasing a touch unless you wanted to add more points to a stat which would take quite a bit of time and money. To save people from having uber items you could cap stats.
Alternatively, use reverse engineer to increase the stats of an object by using the loot table so you basic item could be a modified/local
I still think duplicate item should be in game, obviously there is the concern of people copying the best items in the game and the economy going to **** but this can be avoided by making it a lengthly process INVOLVING SKILLS, not randomness.
In short the point is this. Since the game started every area of the game has had attention, yet science has ALWAYS been and STILL is mineral/production efficiency. Completely forget about tech 2 lottery.
What would be cool if you, on your own or maybe with other players could do something where you could see results and do something constructive with science and it's many skills.
Again, this is NOT about tech 2 but science as a whole.
Fully agree with you. I have close to 8 mil sp in science. Apart from allowing me to build any t2 item ingame atm they dont add much more then rp's/day.
For me , when I was flying my first navitas and I heard in the future I would be able to make my own modification to the ship through reverse engenering made me decide to stay ingame and become a famous ship builder. Building unique Greydroggen class ships, much wanted all over the universe.
But alas, my dreams are still just that, with not much perspective on realising them.
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Epictetus
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Posted - 2005.05.13 11:48:00 -
[28]
When i first started out i was also determined to become a scientist/engineer. All i ever wanted to do was improving on existant technology, perhaps specialising within a very narrow field to get good at it (for instance spend a year just improving shield bpo's so the shields i produce are some of the best to be had).
When i heard about the lottery i gave up on the whole idea and decided i would aid my minmatar brethren by fighting instead of supplying them with good gear.
Im confident that many players like me decided to pass on research alltogether due to the non existant research options.
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Steini OFSI
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Posted - 2005.05.13 11:56:00 -
[29]
I proposed this system for researching once.
Researching revisited.
Long ago I came up with idea for researching, I posted it on the beta forums and later again before castor. Now the exact post is forgotten though the idea is still in my mind altered by new stuff and gameplay elements, but still relies on one major factor wich is more player involvement.
To begin with the idea we need to find out what to research and how...
Here we do have all sorts of branches of researching and most need to work with other branches to be able to do their job, and it will be almost impossible bar the largest corporations or alliances to cover all researching, but donÆt worry, independant small corporations/groups will just have to communicate (bear in mind that this game is about players and player relations). Now as I said branches would have to work together, some would be fundimental research and some would be more advanced and specifics.
Here are some of my ideas of different branches within the research industry.
Material researches: Brief description woul be to research and engineer new materials, this would be done in chemestry labs. This could be new alloys wich could be lighter, stronger or more flexible than current materials found out there.
Frequency researches: Most researches concernign ECMÆs and ECCMÆs
Optical researches: Researching mining lasters as well as lasers and laser crystals.
Now this is a rather uncomplete list but I hope you get the direction IÆm heading. Now as for the links between branches Optical researchers will need Flotrium a new material formed from the combining of Jasoxus gas isotope, Ozone and Mexhallon (a process I will explain shortly). Now the optical researchers find out that it can be used to extract more ore from Veldspar than before and try to enhance mining lasers with it and the Frequency reserchers find out that it enhances gravimetrical strength and build an enhance backup array.
(forgive me for these weird names)
Now we have somewhat small idea of what to research and letÆs get to how.
The exact process varies from the different branches, from superconducters and high pressure chambers and research labs. These would be some sort of lab POS assembly, each would have research labs and the structures around it to be able to do product tests and assembly for what youÆre constructing or creating. In the gun researching we would have nano assemblies and for material research we would have superconductors and high pressure chambers. The basic idea here is that from each test you do you will get logs, and these logs are the largest new element in my idea.
Research logs are raw data documents that is handed to you after each failed/successful product assembly you try. These logs are mundant to look at but can be automated through the game mechanics or you might try to read through them and get the results you want by building up from previous test runs, so you have ten logs from trying to create material bonds, all of them failed and you only change small thing in the pressure chamber each time. So you could try to compare these logs yourself and see what and where some thing went wrong and therefore come to the conclusion that temperature doesnÆt seem to have effect of the testing enviroment, pressure does seem to have good effects around 293 bar on the reaction and then you tried different catalysts etc. or this can be automaticly analized by research teams and there would be a timer on the log analyzing depending on the size of the research team and their skills wich would have to be high rank and have good pre requirements to hinder alts, then you would get information that the pressure needs to be higher or lower or that the heat more or less. You could also try to hasten the project by dooing more test runs and feed more logs to the research team.
But when you finally have a product you want to make money and how is that possible once itÆs been made and everyone could possibly recreate it. Here was my last thought, exclusive rights. Once you have a product you gain exclusive rights for some time to control itÆs manufacturing and distribution, donÆt forget that however your product might need other advanced materials and stuff to be produced so good ties and relationships need to be built between players. More perhaps to come on this point when IÆve thought it through.
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Steini OFSI
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Posted - 2005.05.13 11:59:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Steini OFSI on 13/05/2005 11:59:28
This is to bring more "control" to the players, and efforts will show results other than the current lottery system.
Heck it could even be part of cosmos and localization it will bring to the game and encourage mini professions with perhaps rare skillpacks for analyzing.
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