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Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
38
   |
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Several years ago I used to be a secondary mathematics teacher (high school to our US friends I think). As part of my duties I was obligated to run a weekly after school session for some extra-curricular activity. When I was asked what I'd like to do I had two thoughts, one was Eve and one was golf.
I spent some time going through the merits of using Eve as a learning tool, even going as far as to describe the game to my head of department, but ultimately the logistics of running the game on aging computers and the red tape nightmare of ensuring the online security of the kids meant that I went with the golf option.
However, I still think that MMOs and Eve in particular could be a fantastic tool for teaching and learning. Putting aside the obvious problems of trying to run an MMO from a school network, Eve essentially encourages the following behaviours:
Communication
You dont get far in Eve solo, especially at the start and so learning to ask the right questions and listen to the answers is vital. A skill many youngsters seem to lack these days.
Cooperation
It's not just about teaming up but learning to work effectively together. Find someone who compliments you with a different set of skills like DPS and logistics or cloakers and tacklers etc.
Mathematics
Percentages, stacking penalties, skill planning, gun tracking, ship fitting, optimisation and absorbing technical information are just a few of the more obvious ones. Eve is full of this stuff and could probably cover 80% of a secondary maths curriculum.
In order to squeeze every last bit of dps and tank from your ship you need to delve into the numbers. The kids who spend the time to run the numbers will probably win the fights. Not a bad lesson right there.
Competition
Want to blow up your friends? You're going to need to understand the game mechanics, learn from your mistakes and experiment with different tactics and ship fits. You will have to accept ship losses as a learning experience and come back stronger for it. I've noticed a lot of kids these days deal very badly with losing which includes not getting their own way.
Sharing
Eve rewards you for working together but you wont find many people willing to team up with you if you keep taking all the loot for yourself. Learn to share and everyone benefits more than if you work alone.
Social Interactions
That contract in Jita selling a fully faction fitted Tengu for 100mil looks too good to be true, it's probably a scam. As with real life, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Better the kids learn this lesson with Eve money than with the real stuff.
Finance
Eve has an economy almost as complex as real life and the basic lessons of supply and demand are easily experienced. How do you minimise the cost of what you are buying and how are you going to maximise the value of what you are selling and what other ways are there to make money?
Spacial Awareness
Ok, the physics in Eve aren't as per proper space flight but you still need to be aware of where you are in 3 dimensions in relation to objects, other player ships and NPCs.
Other Stuff
I'm sure people can think of more but I've burned out for now.
When I have kids of my own and they are old enough, I certainly wont have a problem with them playing Eve assuming they are properly supervised. It teaches so many important lessons.
Playing MMOs in the classroom is probably unlikely to happen for some time, if ever, but the potential is there. When I was teaching, the older teachers were continuously agonising over how to engage kids in the classroom and make learning more holistic and meaningful. This could be an answer.
Eve online isn't just a spaceship game, it's a life skills simulator. |
Liner Xiandra
Caldari State Reserve
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Only if you let me be the kid in the back of the class not paying attention and mine ice in my untanked mackinaw. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
There's always one... |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
I did a Bachelor of Engineering in computer games design at Staffordshire University a few years back. We had a surprisingly large number of EVE players on that one course, and it got mentioned a LOT in the module on MMO design and marketing.
We never got around to actually playing it in lectures (though we did play it in the lab while waiting for our projects to compile and suchlike) but there's a lot to be learned from this game.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote:
In my opinion, something that is severely lacking in education today is empathy, ethics and being good for your word.
EVE is designed to disregard all of these qualities.
That's an interesting point, although I would say that someone who continuously breaks his word will struggle to make much headway (of course there are exceptions).
Pirates who get a reputation for not honouring ransoms will find their income takes a dent. A character that steals from their corporation will be lucky to gain entry to another.
By building an honest rep I have had opportunities to make significant isk that would not otherwise be open. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:I did a Bachelor of Engineering in computer games design at Staffordshire University a few years back. We had a surprisingly large number of EVE players on that one course, and it got mentioned a LOT in the module on MMO design and marketing.
We never got around to actually playing it in lectures (though we did play it in the lab while waiting for our projects to compile and suchlike) but there's a lot to be learned from this game.
That course sounds awesome. I did plain old Mathematics. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
if I had my time over, I'd do that course again in a heartbeat. I loved it.
Only difference being, the second time around I wouldn't be such a lazy bum, and I'd go on to Masters and Doctorate level
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
645
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:I did a Bachelor of Engineering in computer games design at Staffordshire University a few years back. We had a surprisingly large number of EVE players on that one course, and it got mentioned a LOT in the module on MMO design and marketing.
We never got around to actually playing it in lectures (though we did play it in the lab while waiting for our projects to compile and suchlike) but there's a lot to be learned from this game.
College seems like a much better place for EVE to be honest.
It does have educational value, but I'm not sure about high school.
At that age kids do extra caricular activity for fun mostly, it's not really about the desire to learn. I don't think kids are quite at an age, by high school, that the vast majority would actually take anything of value away from EVE.
College on the other hand seems perfect. I feel there is much more thought and reflection involved at that stage of your accedemic carrier, and the value EVE would have wouldn't be wasted on a bunch of kids who just took the class so they could play EVE.
That and I'd rather my kid stayed after school to play organized sports, or chess, or the math club. Pretty much anything other than staying after school and playing a video game. He can do that at home, after his homework and chores are done. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote:empathy, ethics and being good for your word.
EVE is designed to disregard all of these qualities.
Thus preparing them for success in the real world careers of investment banking, journalism, law, government, management, advertising, real estate, insurance............
|
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Actually, the thing I've taken away from EVE is that reputation is everything. If your reputation is as a stand-up, trustworthy, competent sort then people reward you for it by, say, making you an FC, making you a director, turning to you for advice, saying nice things about you, giving you money and being willing to overlook the occasional frak-up.
but you steal one little dreadnought BPO... :p
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:
but you steal one little dreadnought BPO... :p
I know! Some people are way too sensitive. |
Liner Xiandra
Caldari State Reserve
42
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Liner Xiandra wrote:empathy, ethics and being good for your word.
EVE is designed to disregard all of these qualities. Thus preparing them for success in the real world careers of investment banking, journalism, law, government, management, advertising, real estate, insurance............
No disagreeing here, though you could argue that the sorry state of current world affairs is a result of these successful careers. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Liner Xiandra wrote:empathy, ethics and being good for your word.
EVE is designed to disregard all of these qualities. Thus preparing them for success in the real world careers of investment banking, journalism, law, government, management, advertising, real estate, insurance............ No disagreeing here, though you could argue that the sorry state of current world affairs is a result of these successful careers.
I think schools have a duty to prepare children for the world as it is rather than how we would like it to be.
And yes, I know how cynical I sound and I don't like it either. |
Kiandoshia
Gravien Enterprises
Novus Dominatum
1327
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
No. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jumpers.
Banana.
You'll have to forgive me, I'm not familiar with the rules of your game. |
Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU
Open Space Consultancy
59
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
If I ever get high in the corporate ladder I might use EVE as an interviewing tool, see how much they can pick up in a day/week of playing the game.
|
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
43
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Stegas Tyrano wrote:If I ever get high in the corporate ladder I might use EVE as an interviewing tool, see how much they can pick up in a day/week of playing the game.
Is "getting high in the corporate ladder" a euphemism?  |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
677
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alright kids, remember when you get in a fight on the playground, let the other kid throw the first punch and get gategun aggro, then orbit him and punch away. If you start to lose that fight, have 3 invisible younger kids decloak and throw sand in his eyes and then you all run away.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
43
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Alright kids, remember when you get in a fight on the playground, let the other kid throw the first punch and get gategun aggro, then orbit him and punch away. If you start to lose that fight, have 3 invisible younger kids decloak and throw sand in his eyes and then you all run away.
Hah! Brilliant.
Also, didn't we banish you a few days ago? |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
682
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Complex Potential wrote:
Also, didn't we banish you a few days ago?
To do that, one must hop on one foot whilst sacrificing a live chicken and saying my name backwards 11.5 times after running through the valley of sarnogithololol and grabbing the magic amulet from the ancient beggars remains. Its pretty complicated, and also must be done on hard mode or else the beggar's corpse doesnt spawn.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2824
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Complex Potential wrote:Liner Xiandra wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Liner Xiandra wrote:empathy, ethics and being good for your word.
EVE is designed to disregard all of these qualities. Thus preparing them for success in the real world careers of investment banking, journalism, law, government, management, advertising, real estate, insurance............ No disagreeing here, though you could argue that the sorry state of current world affairs is a result of these successful careers. I think schools have a duty to prepare children for the world as it is rather than how we would like it to be. And yes, I know how cynical I sound and I don't like it either.
True, and you should all also consider that somethings are and should be the primary responsibility of the parent.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
658
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote:
I think schools have a duty to prepare children for the world as it is rather than how we would like it to be.
And yes, I know how cynical I sound and I don't like it either.
Quote:
True, and you should all also consider that somethings are and should be the primary responsibility of the parent.
Imagine if both of these things actually happened.
You know,
Schools actually preparing kids for the real world.
And parents teaching them morales, and how to be a respectable person. |
Erik chupacabra
Into The Void
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
We actually had a teacher in high school that would let us play Counter-Strike in class after we finished our work. The class was a Computer Maintenance class which was my favorite class of the day. The class did have cliques from the goofiest/awkward kids to a few that were pretty popular, but when we finished our work and loaded the game up all that went out of the window, and we were all just a bunch of guys that were just being guys lol.
Eve could be a pretty sweet deal, my guess would be you guys run a null sec system or even a wormhole, or contact CCP to help you have a system get locked down while your kids are online. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
@ Ranger - Absolutely buddy.
@ Natsett - Some kids are lucky enough to have both these things but unfortunately they are in the minority. They all deserve it, few get it.
@ Erik - You know, I reckon CCP might actually be cool enough to do something like that if a school approached them. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
661
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Complex Potential wrote:
@ Natsett - Some kids are lucky enough to have both these things but unfortunately they are in the minority. They all deserve it, few get it.
Most deserve it.
Quite a few need an entirely different sort of lesson. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode
Mildly Sober
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Heh, you sound like the voice in the back of my head that I had to keep quiet at staff meetings  |
Max Godsnottlingson
Bitter Veterans
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
If I remember right, I believe that there is a university, in Norway I think, that has a deal with CCP to use the game to help teach and demonstrate something like customer dynamics or some other psychology based sales thing |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2826
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
You know, if EVE were set in a high school instead of in space... and we all piloted avatars of teenagers instead of ships... all of the ambushes, betrayals, weapons use, marketing activity, paranoia, general lack of fashion sense, and persecution of "minors" would make EVE a near perfect perfect simulation of my high school experience. 
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
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