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Talthrus	Posted - 2005.05.17 19:19:00 - [1] Hello everyone, I'm having trouble deciding which HAC to train for. Since I fly a Harpy at the moment, I already have the hybrid specialization skills down (nearly ready for medium spec), but I have Amarr cruiser level 4. So - since both HACs will take me nearly the same amount of time to train for, which one should I get? I'd like to hear some comments about the two ships and how well they work. I've only seen each in action a few times so I'm having trouble deciding. Note that I will be using the HAC for PVP. Thanks!
Na'Axin	Posted - 2005.05.17 19:26:00 - [2] /me wonders why people nowadays need other people to decide what ship they are going to fly it's a personal choice m8, deimos tanks better, but has shorter range... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.05.17 19:33:00 - [3] Originally by: Na'Axin /me wonders why people nowadays need other people to decide what ship they are going to fly it's a personal choice m8, deimos tanks better, but has shorter range... Zealot tanks better actually, but has lower damage output but better range. I can fly a zealot myself, love it for its insta ceptor popping ability before they can mwd to a gate. ------------------------------------------
Mac Knife	Posted - 2005.05.17 21:23:00 - [4] Originally by: MadGaz Originally by: Na'Axin /me wonders why people nowadays need other people to decide what ship they are going to fly it's a personal choice m8, deimos tanks better, but has shorter range... Zealot tanks better actually, but has lower damage output but better range. I can fly a zealot myself, love it for its insta ceptor popping ability before they can mwd to a gate. Yeah tell me about it lol remembers getting popped in his ares by madgaz Zealot is a nice ganking ship, its like a mini geddon and will tear thro a diemos, but the diemos is also a sweeeeeeeet ship. It is down to what you like really, no 1 can really tell you what to fly
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.05.17 21:26:00 - [5] I'd like to try a deimos. just because it has blasters
skilz	Posted - 2005.05.17 22:57:00 - [6] amarr! so ZEALOT! --
Cmdr Patrick	Posted - 2005.05.17 23:36:00 - [7] Originally by: MadGaz Originally by: Na'Axin /me wonders why people nowadays need other people to decide what ship they are going to fly it's a personal choice m8, deimos tanks better, but has shorter range... Zealot tanks better actually, but has lower damage output but better range. I can fly a zealot myself, love it for its insta ceptor popping ability before they can mwd to a gate. /me remebers his kessie...
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.05.18 06:36:00 - [8] Personally I would take the Zealot. The Zealot's damage output is incredibly high and with its number of low slots, you can put more heat sinks to it for ultimate damage output. In a true gank setup, damage modifiers of between 7 to 8 is not uncommon. Over time, pulses tend to hit more than blasters due to their longer range. It also got a bit more speed, as well as legendary Amarrian cap and armor. Assaults and heavy Asssaults have a strong Amarrian theme on them, just as covert ops and bombers have a strong Caldari theme. The Zealot is better rounded when it comes to damage specific hardeners. Explosive damage is the greater threat to armor tanking assaults and heavy assaults followed by kinetic damage. Many people use explosive damage torpedoes and missiles in PvP to battle armor tanking which tends to be more commonly used then shield tanking. The Zealot specializes tanking against both explosive and kinetic while the Deimos tanks best against thermal and kinetic. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Talthrus	Posted - 2005.05.18 14:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Slithereen Personally I would take the Zealot. The Zealot's damage output is incredibly high and with its number of low slots, you can put more heat sinks to it for ultimate damage output. In a true gank setup, damage modifiers of between 7 to 8 is not uncommon. Over time, pulses tend to hit more than blasters due to their longer range. It also got a bit more speed, as well as legendary Amarrian cap and armor. Assaults and heavy Asssaults have a strong Amarrian theme on them, just as covert ops and bombers have a strong Caldari theme. The Zealot is better rounded when it comes to damage specific hardeners. Explosive damage is the greater threat to armor tanking assaults and heavy assaults followed by kinetic damage. Many people use explosive damage torpedoes and missiles in PvP to battle armor tanking which tends to be more commonly used then shield tanking. The Zealot specializes tanking against both explosive and kinetic while the Deimos tanks best against thermal and kinetic. Thank you. I have been leaning toward the Zealot but haven't been able to make up my mind. High damage output always sounds nice. Can the Deimos fit a more rounded setup than a Zealot then?
Hakera	Posted - 2005.05.18 14:37:00 - [10] Edited by: Hakera on 18/05/2005 14:38:22 another thing to bare in mind depending on your wallet is the cost of the two. Deimos are 85mill and zealots about 60mill. Thats 25mill more of uninsured value to consider. Personally Ive seen action against a lot of zealots and the dmg output is huge and at a more versitile range. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com

darth solo	Posted - 2005.05.18 15:53:00 - [11] surelly it all depends on sooooo mnay diff situations?.. deimos gets under 5k the amarr thing is dead, and with the deimos having a mwd, that is exactly what will happen. d solo.
Voltron	Posted - 2005.05.18 16:04:00 - [12] Originally by: MadGaz Zealot tanks better actually, but has lower damage output but better range. I can fly a zealot myself, love it for its insta ceptor popping ability before they can mwd to a gate. /me remembers his kessy........and his crow..........and his maller..........but still went for the deimos anyways nothing ventured nothing gained Volt
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.18 16:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Slithereen It also got a bit more speed, as well as legendary Amarrian cap and armor. Assaults and heavy Asssaults have a strong Amarrian theme on them, just as covert ops and bombers have a strong Caldari theme. The Zealot is better rounded when it comes to damage specific hardeners. Explosive damage is the greater threat to armor tanking assaults and heavy assaults followed by kinetic damage. Many people use explosive damage torpedoes and missiles in PvP to battle armor tanking which tends to be more commonly used then shield tanking. The Zealot specializes tanking against both explosive and kinetic while the Deimos tanks best against thermal and kinetic. Legendary cap? The Deimos has more cap then the Zealot. The difference is mulitplied even further when you put MWD's on them (Deimos's mwd cap bonus). Explosive is the least common type of damage in pvp. Thermal is the most common. In other words, i'd pick thermal over exp any day. You spot a mega, your expl resistance is useless, you encounter an apoc, both your racial resists are useless, raven spamming mjolnirs, your resists are useless. When you finally do encounter your racial enemy BS, a Tempest using EMP, 45% of your resists will be completely useless. It's even worse if it's using phased plasma. ________________________________________________________
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.05.18 16:21:00 - [14] It all depends on the situation and how you plan to use it really. The Deimos is a one-trick pony, albeit it does its trick bloody well. The Zealot offers a little more flexibility, and due its high traversal velocity and optimal ranges, is far more survivable if you come up against a Raven (with changes). If the fight starts at 20Km however, if the Deimos is well-balanced in its setup, and the pilot skilled, expect the Deimos to win. Even if the Zealot is packing a webifier - the momentum of the Gallentean blaster-monster will carry it into optimal. The Deimos also packs drones and an MWD - making it a little more useful when evading groups of Interceptors. Your call really - I'd go for the Zealot over-all mind, since it offers a more rounded experience and is a little cheaper to lose. I personally love the Deimos, but then I fell in love with the Thorax the moment I set eyes upon it... Battle Angels Inc - The Movie
Tarm	Posted - 2005.05.18 17:03:00 - [15] Zealots are good, but in my opinion Deimos' are even better. The reason anyone flies a HAC is fun, and the attributes of a Deimos lends itself to more fun for the pilot. For PvP all HACs are pretty much a one-trick pony, it just so happens that the Deimos' pony is a bit harder to ride but a whole lotta fun if you master it. Oh, and if you are hoping to tank a HAC against a battleship in anything other than a Sacrilege, you are wasting your time. /me wishes he could fly something besides Amarrian for the first time in his EVE career. -------------------
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.18 17:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Tarm /me wishes he could fly something besides Amarrian for the first time in his EVE career. You and me both [offtopic] I'm at the point where i'm thinking of going for large pulse spec 5 but then it hits me, i can train small hybrid/projectile V, medium hybrid/projectile V and a bit of large hybrid/projectile V by the time large pulse spec V would finish I would get a total of around 46% in overall hybrid/projectile damage bonus compared to the 2% in large spec i would get... If you factor in nerfing, specialization just isn't worth it I wish specialization skills worked a bit different from normal skills. A higher bonus at lvl5 would be nice. 30days for 2% as it is makes me [/offtopic] ________________________________________________________
Ben Wallece	Posted - 2005.05.18 18:02:00 - [17] Edited by: Ben Wallece on 18/05/2005 18:02:04
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:03:00 - [18] Completely up to you, Zealot has more range, deimos has more drones, and zealot makes a better long range then the deimos IMO. But main factor is play style really, if you like a blasterrax then go for the deimos, if you like a bit more flexibility and range, go for the zealot. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Talthrus	Posted - 2005.05.18 22:33:00 - [19] I personally love being up close and personal, so I'm guessing the Deimos might be a better choice :). I'm kicking myself for training up to Amarr BS though over the past week (that I won't be using for the time being). I do have small hybrid spec level 4 though, so perhaps the Deimos might even come faster than a Zealot for me. Thanks for the insight everyone!
Fierce Deity	Posted - 2005.05.19 04:25:00 - [20] While i've never flown a zealot i do so love my diemos, i tested it on an apoc and effectively ripped it in half in under 4 seconds. I don't have to switch set up's to npc i.e. your hunting in low sec and a player rat warps in you can just as easy turn on him. Either ship you take neither are invincable so be prepared for a massive loss should you try to take on the world with it. ------FD------

Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2005.05.19 04:54:00 - [21] Its wierd I have found that as far as wepons go Lasers are the best at the medium and small sizes but are the worst turret at the large size. As far as an actual HAC goes get a Zealot for ganking,a Sacrilege for fleet fights/agent running. Sac's live longer and armor tank better then Zealots but do less damage then zealots, If you fought the two the Sac would win simply cuz it would tank all the damage. I haven't played with the Deimos yet,from what I hear its a close combat GOD. But you need very high gunnery to be effective with it against other HAC's and BS which will be your primary fleet enemy,namely ravens/cerberus's and Sac's. The missle boats and armor tankers will give you trouble. Please stop being a third rate flamer,I am tired of reactivating my account just to kick your ass.
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.05.19 05:18:00 - [22] Got my Deimos and Ishtar flying now, to complement my other pair of HACs, a Zealot and Sacrilege. One thing to consider if that you are planning to train for either a Deimos or Zealot, you might also consider that you may also end up flying their partners, an Ishtar or Sacrilege respectively. If you happen to be inclined to any one of these, it would make your decision easier. Or harder depending on your perspective, since both are lovely ships. I would think that a decision to go for either one of the two HACs might also have to be seen in a larger perspective given all the training time you have to invest. Would you prefer to train for the combined Amarr HAC path, or Gallente HAC path? For lasers or hybrids? You also have to view your decision that way. What are your main intentions for the ships? _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.19 09:38:00 - [23] Originally by: Dash Ripcock ... If the fight starts at 20Km however, if the Deimos is well-balanced in its setup, and the pilot skilled, expect the Deimos to win. Even if the Zealot is packing a webifier - the momentum of the Gallentean blaster-monster will carry it into optimal. The Deimos also packs drones and an MWD - making it a little more useful when evading groups of Interceptors. ... Not if the Zealot pilot knows what he's doing. The Zealot can always keep his transversal velocity high so the Deimos will keep missing his approach (this includes combat with webbers).
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.05.19 09:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Fierce Deity While i've never flown a zealot i do so love my diemos, i tested it on an apoc and effectively ripped it in half in under 4 seconds. I don't have to switch set up's to npc i.e. your hunting in low sec and a player rat warps in you can just as easy turn on him. Either ship you take neither are invincable so be prepared for a massive loss should you try to take on the world with it. I take it that the Apocalypse wasn't running a combat-specification armour tank? Whenever I come up against an Apocalypse it ends up in a dead-heat - he can't hit me hard enough with his lasers and drones, and I can't break his tank. If you out-fitted a Deimos for full damage, and neglected your defences and speed, you could probably kill one - but encountering something more mobile would probably be your demise... Battle Angels Inc - The Movie
Fred0	Posted - 2005.05.19 15:56:00 - [25] Even though the 4 second comment is clearly a blatant lie considering the mathematical possibilities of the dot on a deimos I would like to hear what a combat spec armor tank is nowadays.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.05.19 17:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Fred0 Even though the 4 second comment is clearly a blatant lie considering the mathematical possibilities of the dot on a deimos I would like to hear what a combat spec armor tank is nowadays. On the Deimos, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate, a med T2 repairer and a few hardeners will put you over 185 Damage per second tanked with over 4000 reserve armour points. Still enough grid left to fit 5 med guns, but definitely not Neutron blasters. It should be enough to tank a battleship while you go toe-to-toe. I've never dabbled in PVP, though. The low slots not being used for damage mods and the lack of ability to fit neutron blasters might knock that DOT down too far to be useful against a battleship.
Soros	Posted - 2005.05.19 18:14:00 - [27] I have blanked out the names but here is what happened in a demios vs taranis and zealot, not sure how close it was though . . . and maybe the taranis just tipped the balance ----> Victim: Alliance: Corporation: Destroyed Type: Deimos Solar System: System Security Level: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Security Status: 4.4 Alliance: Corporation: Ship Type: Zealot Weapon Type: Unknown Name: Security Status: 2.2 Alliance: Corporation: Ship Type: Taranis Weapon Type: 125mm Railgun II -= Soros =- = Firmux Ixion =
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.05.19 18:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Fred0 Even though the 4 second comment is clearly a blatant lie considering the mathematical possibilities of the dot on a deimos I would like to hear what a combat spec armor tank is nowadays. On the Deimos, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate, a med T2 repairer and a few hardeners will put you over 185 Damage per second tanked with over 4000 reserve armour points. Still enough grid left to fit 5 med guns, but definitely not Neutron blasters. It should be enough to tank a battleship while you go toe-to-toe. I've never dabbled in PVP, though. The low slots not being used for damage mods and the lack of ability to fit neutron blasters might knock that DOT down too far to be useful against a battleship. you can't fit a 1600 plate and even electrons without several rcu 2's. _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.05.19 19:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Necrologic you can't fit a 1600 plate and even electrons without several rcu 2's. Indeed. I run 5 Dual 150mms on my setup. It's for NPCing.
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.05.19 19:33:00 - [30] Edited by: Necrologic on 19/05/2005 19:33:47 Originally by: Nyphur 5 Dual 150mms on my setup. You have my deepest sympathies. _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.

Nyphur	Posted - 2005.05.19 19:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Necrologic Edited by: Necrologic on 19/05/2005 19:33:47 Originally by: Nyphur 5 Dual 150mms on my setup. You have my deepest sympathies. I can tank an entire fleet of elite frigates, cruisers and battleships and I have a raven on standby to deal out the damage for me. Your sympathies are not required.
Fierce Deity	Posted - 2005.05.19 20:07:00 - [32] Originally by: Dash Ripcock Originally by: Fierce Deity While i've never flown a zealot i do so love my diemos, i tested it on an apoc and effectively ripped it in half in under 4 seconds. I don't have to switch set up's to npc i.e. your hunting in low sec and a player rat warps in you can just as easy turn on him. Either ship you take neither are invincable so be prepared for a massive loss should you try to take on the world with it. I take it that the Apocalypse wasn't running a combat-specification armour tank? Whenever I come up against an Apocalypse it ends up in a dead-heat - he can't hit me hard enough with his lasers and drones, and I can't break his tank. If you out-fitted a Deimos for full damage, and neglected your defences and speed, you could probably kill one - but encountering something more mobile would probably be your demise... TBO i don't know what set up he was using, i do know i was half into his armor in a few seconds though. Of course i have all gunnery to at leaste 4 including med blaster spec, as well as hac. He as well was quite surprised at how fast i brought him down. ------FD------
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.19 20:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Necrologic Edited by: Necrologic on 19/05/2005 19:33:47 Originally by: Nyphur 5 Dual 150mms on my setup. You have my deepest sympathies. I can tank an entire fleet of elite frigates, cruisers and battleships and I have a raven on standby to deal out the damage for me. Your sympathies are not required. I think what he meant to say was that your setup sucks. I would agree. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.19 20:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Lucian Alucard Its wierd I have found that as far as wepons go Lasers are the best at the medium and small sizes but are the worst turret at the large size. Err, you mean the opposite right? ________________________________________________________
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.05.20 07:39:00 - [35] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Necrologic you can't fit a 1600 plate and even electrons without several rcu 2's. Indeed. I run 5 Dual 150mms on my setup. It's for NPCing. It seems an awful waste putting a 1600RT plate on a Deimos, when it has such high resistances and manoeuvrability compared with the Thorax. If you know the rat you're taking on, you should be quite able to tank their damage - unless of course it's a huge spawn. Even so - if you're going to buy a HAS for rat-hunting, you may as well get something that has a better tank (for example: the Sacrilege). PvP-wise, Dual 150mm IIs are a bad idea - they offer a Jack-of-all-trade offence - you're far better off with Electron Blaster IIs. As for the claim of tanking an entire fleet - that's a rather big claim, considering most 'fleets' these days fit for maximum damage over range. Extra armour or not - you'll only prolong your existence for a few seconds... Battle Angels Inc - The Movie
Spider Jerusalem	Posted - 2005.05.20 13:51:00 - [36] I can get my damage modifier above 11 on the Deimos and with two armor harderners, I have 3 out of 4 resistances above 80%. Also fitted with a armor repairer 2 and there is not much I can't tank. Also, the Deimos looks better in camoflague(or something).
Kinsy	Posted - 2005.05.20 14:46:00 - [37] Edited by: Kinsy on 20/05/2005 14:46:59 The Apoc pilot mustve had no tanking at all. I was pirated in a belt by a Deimos, but as i was tanking the rats i had his damage tanked - kinetic and thermal & 1 Large repairer. If idve fitted a 50% instead of a 30% thermal hardener that day i might have tanked his damage, but as it was i tanked it for a good 5 mins before i went down. Having said that, i engaged said HAC pilot twice since then with a full rack of lasers, and not managed to dent his tank alone.
diablo	Posted - 2005.05.20 15:51:00 - [38] mmmmmm Zealot i think. My views are my own ok so no flaming :) Zealot uber damage, ISSUE i find i u want mega damage so u fit heavy beam IIs and HS IIS ok thats fine but if he gets inside your 15k 20k Optimal u wont hit ****, and all i have left then is the NOS, and if ya webbed well say no more. Deimos Nice ship, lots of drones BUT u need to get close to really own anything Blasterize em, and ive not yet seem any1 in a Deimos excel in a fleet battle there normally dust before they can get close. But excellent for gate camping and that quick ceptor kill. I do however Love my Sacrilidge as it has missles for that little bit of added defence, Yeah i know it doesnt hit has hard but knowing u may survive helps :P but my pers fav is my Vagabond, FAst has missles 650 720s love em to bits ceptor killer, But thats my view, If i was choosing like youve asked then Zealot. and save up for a sac :)
Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2005.05.22 01:26:00 - [39] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Lucian Alucard Its wierd I have found that as far as wepons go Lasers are the best at the medium and small sizes but are the worst turret at the large size. Err, you mean the opposite right? No, t2 tachs/megas do less damage then t2 1400s and 425MM Rails. Check the Dps,they are all pretty close but lasers do less. Please stop being a third rate flamer,I am tired of reactivating my account just to kick your ass.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.05.22 16:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Dash Ripcock Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Necrologic you can't fit a 1600 plate and even electrons without several rcu 2's. Indeed. I run 5 Dual 150mms on my setup. It's for NPCing. As for the claim of tanking an entire fleet - that's a rather big claim, considering most 'fleets' these days fit for maximum damage over range. Extra armour or not - you'll only prolong your existence for a few seconds... It's an NPC fleet and if things get tough, I use a remote repairing friend. My Deimos has incredible resistances to all four damage types since the complex fleet that I tank deal all four. The 1600mm plate is the difference between loving between repairer cycles or not, so it's definitely required.

Verel Torellia	Posted - 2005.05.22 18:41:00 - [41] Whats all this HAC killing BS's malarky :), i can take a sacralidge in under 1 1/2 mins with my large energy destablizer in my raven, its funny how worried they get when there cap is gone in 30 seconds , just take there resistances from em, if there using active resistances they dog food in no time, and cuz most HAC get pretty close the 25km on the destablizer is more than enuff
Dave10	Posted - 2005.05.22 21:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Verel Torellia Whats all this HAC killing BS's malarky :), i can take a sacralidge in under 1 1/2 mins with my large energy destablizer in my raven, its funny how worried they get when there cap is gone in 30 seconds , just take there resistances from em, if there using active resistances they dog food in no time, and cuz most HAC get pretty close the 25km on the destablizer is more than enuff 1 1/2 mins pre patch raven? enjoy the missile nerf
Helena Alucard	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:20:00 - [43] Actually Domis and phoons will be the best post patch for taking on HAC due to drone space and cap neut fitting
Ratchet Darkblade	Posted - 2005.05.24 01:25:00 - [44] Why has no one mentioned puting tech2 250 rails on the Deimos. I am taking down Lv4 Missions in it no probs with a hard hitting 70k range. You can still tank and are still quite mobile with a AB on. All though the blasters setup with ion 2's is leathal indeed.


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