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CCP, here's a possible solution for the new AI effect on drone

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Belavius Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.12.15 07:18:00 - [1] - Quote REDUCE signature radius of ALL drones, like by alot. Here's why. Let's first look at the current drone signature radius in game. Light drones: 25 m3 Medium drones: 50 m3 Heavy drones: 100 m3 Now lets take a look at the smallest eve pilotable ship, the shuttle, with a signature radius of 25 m3. Yet the size of the shuttle is 5000 m3, and the size of a light drone is 5 m3. Who decided that the signature radius of a drone that is 1/1000th the volume of a shuttle should have the exact same signature radius? This makes no logical sense whatsoever. This also makes no sense in that a size of 5 m3 means that your average light drone is approximately 1.7 meters long (1.7x1.7x1.7 = ~ 5 m3). How is it that a machine 1.7 meters long has the same signature radius of a ship that is approximately 16-20 meters long? I also have difficulty understanding how a heavy drone, with size of 25 m3, has sig. radius larger than a destroyer. The new AI also makes no sense given alot of amarr ships are now drone ships, making a whole new fleet of ships very difficult to use. Reducing drone signature radius could be done quite easily with a single patch and would let drones survive much longer while under attack instead of being instapopped as they are now. If we go comparatively by length, perhaps reducing it by 1/4, or even 1/3 would help. Lets say take sig. radius of light drone down to 8-10 m3, medium to 15, and heavy to 25-30. Or reduce sig. radius of, for example, your light drones to the same sig. of your average npc spider drone, which is far more realistic. The only downside would be that if applied evenly to npc's and player ships, regular npc light drones would be alot harder to take down, although with multiple examples, CCP doesnt appear to apply the same rules of warfare to npc's as with players anyway (see NPC's jamming from 150km away). However, for most ships, lets face it, you were using a fleet of your own drones to kill spider drones anyway before the update. But the current instapop issue with current drones is simply not acceptable, IMO, and needs to be resolved. Heavy drones would still have alot of issues given the amount of time it takes them to travel back once under attack, so maybe also increase their hp's or speed or both. All of these could still be done with a single patch. The result would still be imperfect and would likely still require drone recalls but it would be better than what we have now and be alot more realistic. For missioners, another thought would be since most ships have a spare upper slot, maybe fill that with a remote rep mod for medium and heavy drone users since now you aren't getting instapopped. Other ideas that have been mentioned are an improved UI that informs you quickly when your drones are under attack, although that would take more work and time. Thoughts?
James Amril-Kesh RAZOR Alliance 1473	Posted - 2012.12.15 07:20:00 - [2] - Quote They're actually playing with something to the effect of reducing NPC damage on drones right now. I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to work, but this thread discusses it to some extent. -áObjects in mirror aren't as red as they appear.
Belavius Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.12.15 07:30:00 - [3] - Quote Reading the post, they don't really appear to be talking about reducing signature radius, which is the big problem. I hope they do fix the problem, but I am just offering a possible solution which might be the easiest fix of them all.
ACE McFACE The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate 895	Posted - 2012.12.15 07:55:00 - [4] - Quote Belavius wrote: Reading the post, they don't really appear to be talking about reducing signature radius, which is the big problem. I hope they do fix the problem, but I am just offering a possible solution which might be the easiest fix of them all. This signature radius 'fix' would only work for a purely PvE game. If you made the signature radius of a drone so small, have fun PvPing in (for example) a Kitsune (Yes I know, no one flies EAFs) where the only reason you fit weapons is for anti-drone defence or whoring on killmails. "No one drove in New York, there was too much traffic."
Maelle LuzArdiden University of Caille Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2012.12.15 08:17:00 - [5] - Quote Reducing drone sig would obviously help using them in PVP as well, it's far too easy to kill drones as they are.
baltec1 Bat Country 3309	Posted - 2012.12.15 09:59:00 - [6] - Quote Or you could look after your drones better.
Maelle LuzArdiden University of Caille Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2012.12.15 10:11:00 - [7] - Quote Looking after isn't really related to the fact they are too fast to lock, and too easy to pop.
Avalon Stormborn The Evocati 12	Posted - 2012.12.15 10:18:00 - [8] - Quote Yeah we had this exact discussion today in the corp as well. We also came to the conclusion that the signature radios is WAY too big as it stands. A large drone, small as they are, have a signature radius larger than a whole destroyer. Either sort this out, or make actual drone ships have a role bonus where NPC's won't attack the drones, that way you can still do missions in the drone ships. This would also differentiate the drone ships from normal ships that can also have drones, but don't depend on them. So drone ships, who rely on the drones, are good. But non drone ships have to be more careful. this solution would work for me, and it wouldn't influence PvP at all.
Zack Korth The Deneveh Collective High Rollers 55	Posted - 2012.12.15 10:26:00 - [9] - Quote yea, the drones are fine, idk why some people can't adapt to certain things, hell i'd rather the rats didn't switch targets at all (so I could use my 2nd BS as a DPS machine instead of having to tank it too) but they do, you must adapt your play style around this, you must tank 2 ships, no one feels sorry for me. I don't feel sorry for you. I've explained this many times on these forums: because using drones effectively has changed, the strategy has changed, yet players refuse to adapt to it.. "oh look, some frigs just entered my drone command control range, GO GO GO!" a short time later "WTF!? only 3 of my poor hammerheads even made it to the target?" an even shorter time later "i'll just head over to the eve forums, shitpost looks rational and thought out! hit post... annnnnd that oughta do it" or you could just wait until the frigs are on you... gee it might be easier to pull back your drones if they're 5000m away instead of 60km dontcha think? lather rinse and repeat until the frigs are toast, and then feel free to send your drones anywhere, the BS' won't hit em. I feel like my method, which I used in RL to keep my forum trolling to topics with more potential lolz, works better than yours.
Maelle LuzArdiden University of Caille Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2012.12.15 10:50:00 - [10] - Quote I have no idea what you are ranting about, Zack, this thread discusses the fact that drones appear ship-sized to sensors and the tracking formula, even though they are physically much smaller, and don't carry nearly the same amount of complex electronics to create such a huge sensor footprint.
The Protato Protus Correction Facility Inc. 110	Posted - 2012.12.15 11:23:00 - [11] - Quote ACE McFACE wrote: This signature radius 'fix' would only work for a purely PvE game. If you made the signature radius of a drone so small, have fun PvPing in (for example) a Kitsune (Yes I know, no one flies EAFs) where the only reason you fit weapons is for anti-drone defence or whoring on killmails. EAFs are fun. I have a Kitsune fit which applies 28 jam strength to any race unheated from 60km - I really don't get why everyone says they're bad. ECM tank is second only to station tank.
Drew Solaert Wildcard Inc. 224	Posted - 2012.12.15 11:28:00 - [12] - Quote Lowering the sig radius on Warrior II's would be amazing. From a PvP standpoint. Seriously they'd just go **** every frig going. I lied :o
Irya Boone Escadron leader 90	Posted - 2012.12.15 11:37:00 - [13] - Quote like i already said CCP totally screwed drones they don't know what to do with them :( signature radius of destroyers , speed of BS , dps of frigate , survability of shuttle ... but they say .. work as intended... Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á
Gillia Winddancer Shiny Noble Crown Services 153	Posted - 2012.12.15 15:57:00 - [14] - Quote Logical sig radii for the win. And CCP should take much more advantage of ship sig radii in a lot of different areas to be honest. You all know where and you all know you want to!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 10670	Posted - 2012.12.15 16:05:00 - [15] - Quote Maelle LuzArdiden wrote: I have no idea what you are ranting about, Zack, this thread discusses the fact that drones appear ship-sized to sensors and the tracking formula GÇªif by GÇ£ship-sized" you mean they are half as small as the ships they're going after. If they get killed in missions, it's less due to signature and more due to their propensity for MWDing in a straight line towards the ships in the field. The fact of the matter is that it's still easy to keep your drones alive. Just manage them properly and keep the aggro off of them. Oh, and OP, a shuttle does not take up 5k m-¦. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
Stegas Tyrano GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy 61	Posted - 2012.12.15 16:05:00 - [16] - Quote They should make drones more like pets, so when they get attacked they run away or aggro their attacker
Maelle LuzArdiden University of Caille Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.12.15 16:13:00 - [17] - Quote Tippia wrote: Maelle LuzArdiden wrote: I have no idea what you are ranting about, Zack, this thread discusses the fact that drones appear ship-sized to sensors and the tracking formula GÇªif by GÇ£ship-sized" you mean they are half as small as the ships they're going after. If they get killed in missions, it's less due to signature and more due to their propensity for MWDing in a straight line towards the ships in the field. The fact of the matter is that it's still easy to keep your drones alive. Just manage them properly and keep the aggro off of them. Oh, and OP, a shuttle does not take up 5k m-¦. No, by ship-sized I mean heavy drones are as big as cruisers to the sensors and tracking formula, and yes, MWD bloom is relevant and only emphasizes this. I don't run missions so wouldn't know about them.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 751	Posted - 2012.12.15 16:24:00 - [18] - Quote Maelle LuzArdiden wrote: I have no idea what you are ranting about, Zack, this thread discusses the fact that drones appear ship-sized to sensors and the tracking formula, even though they are physically much smaller, and don't carry nearly the same amount of complex electronics to create such a huge sensor footprint. Has CCP ever said why they do this? It seems strange that it would be so large, without there being some reasoning behind it.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 10672	Posted - 2012.12.15 16:53:00 - [19] - Quote Maelle LuzArdiden wrote: No, by ship-sized I mean heavy drones are as big as cruisers to the sensors and tracking formula GÇªin other words, less than half the ships they're going after. It's not particularly difficult to imagine that a remote-controlled (and heavily constrained in terms of local and independent decision-making capabilities, lets they go rogue) combat platform would emit a massive amount of transmission signals, thus making them easier to pick-up than if they were self-contained ships. They are engines, hot guns, a reactor, a computer, an active sensor array and an active transmitter in a bear-bones chassis. No wonder they light up the skyGÇª Quote: and yes, MWD bloom is relevant and only emphasizes this. Not really. It's the zero transversal that screw them up GÇö MWD bloom (and indeed signature radius as a whole) becomes pretty much irrelevant at that point. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 238	Posted - 2012.12.15 17:04:00 - [20] - Quote The problem isn't so much the basic signature radius - it is that drones all use MWD to move around. When that MWD kicks in the sig spikes up and they get blasted. Solution is simple: Get rid of drone MWD and just make them naturally fast. For example: Light drone - 1000m/s, Medium drone - 500m/s, Heavy drone - 250m/s. There you go, one simple flat rate speed. Adjust by race if you want. Pointless MWD and it's pointless sig spikes go away. Also, allow new drone script/option: Arc path to target. Takes longer to get there and back, but they aren't stuck on a 0.0 trans while doing it. EvE Forum Bingo
Bennet Am Seekers of Oblivion 8	Posted - 2012.12.15 17:43:00 - [21] - Quote All I need is a better drone UI. I need to be able to see which drones are damaged before I launch them. I need to be able to assign drones to more than 1 group. I would like to exchange drone bay space for the ability to repair drone armor while the drones are docked. I would like 'smart launching'. If I have 10 hammerheads in a folder, launch the undamaged ones. I tend to fly short range, armor tanked drone boats and they are just fine. I imagine people who are used to engaging from 30+ find their playstyle almost eliminated. Speed or sig on mediums needs a little help.
Jame Jarl Retief Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy 630	Posted - 2012.12.15 19:37:00 - [22] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: They're actually playing with something to the effect of reducing NPC damage on drones right now. I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to work, but this thread discusses it to some extent. That is, if I didn't completely misinterpret it. Spent hours today testing it. And honestly, it soooooo doesn't cut it. Even if it works, of which I have doubts. Not by a very, very long railgun shot.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1914	Posted - 2012.12.15 19:44:00 - [23] - Quote Katran Luftschreck wrote: Solution is simple: Get rid of drone MWD and just make them naturally fast. For example: Light drone - 1000m/s, Medium drone - 500m/s, Heavy drone - 250m/s. There you go, one simple flat rate speed. Adjust by race if you want. Pointless MWD and it's pointless sig spikes go away. Also, allow new drone script/option: Arc path to target. Takes longer to get there and back, but they aren't stuck on a 0.0 trans while doing it. That will mess up their orbiting because they will have high transversal due to their speed. So make sure to kick that up a notch as well... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Utremi Fasolasi The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden 113	Posted - 2012.12.15 22:12:00 - [24] - Quote Tippia wrote: They are engines, hot guns, a reactor, a computer, an active sensor array and an active transmitter in a bear-bones chassis. No wonder they light up the skyGÇª WTB drones made of bear bones.
Borascus Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance 156	Posted - 2012.12.15 22:21:00 - [25] - Quote Reducing the signature radius of the drones will make pvp against drone boats cumbersome (and pointless) whilst watching glancing on the targets drones, which you have chosen to do before killing the target. The answer is in the NPC tracking profile vs drones, not tracking vs drones. Get in the van, park it over there.
Belavius Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.12.16 02:18:00 - [26] - Quote Borascus wrote: Reducing the signature radius of the drones will make pvp against drone boats cumbersome (and pointless) whilst watching glancing on the targets drones, which you have chosen to do before killing the target. The answer is in the NPC tracking profile vs drones, not tracking vs drones. No, it would actually make pvp more fair. Kill the drone boat with your dps before the drone dps kills you. As drone boat's main offense and defense is their drones. To illustrate, any rifter with any skill can easily kill any drone cruiser like vexor or arbitrator using the following tried and true tactic: See vexor on grid Fly to vexor Warp scram vexor and orbit vexor using prop mod just beyond web and neut range Web and kill any and all drones sent your way easily due to their comparatively huge sig radius Once all drones are gone and the ship is defenseless, orbit vexor tightly and kill vexor as it cannot hit you. Pvp light drones should have the same sig. radius as your average spider drone, which is your npc light drone. Instead for whatever reason, ccp ballooned up the sig radius, and in addition making it worse with drone use of MWD. Even with a small sig. radius, you will still likely kill the vexor, just it will take longer. In addition, if things go sour, you can always run away, while vexor won't be able to do that. So in every case, the rifter still has the advantage, and drone boats will always lose. Just using rifter as an example, but vexor can be beaten with many frigs that way.
BadAssMcKill Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army 24	Posted - 2012.12.16 02:33:00 - [27] - Quote If you're in scram range they're in scram range , and if the Vexor has 5 mediums and 10 lights then I highly doubt you'll survive. Starships were meant to fly~
Belavius Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.12.16 02:34:00 - [28] - Quote Borascus wrote: Reducing the signature radius of the drones will make pvp against drone boats cumbersome (and pointless) whilst watching glancing on the targets drones, which you have chosen to do before killing the target. The answer is in the NPC tracking profile vs drones, not tracking vs drones. Just wanted to add that CCP may end up taking your advice and not mine, assuming they read anything here. They already treat pvp and pve drone combat differently, seeing how the npc spider drone sig radius is tiny, yet player light drone sig. radius is comparatively huge. So I think it would not be a huge problem for them to make this adjustment.
Belavius Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.12.16 02:40:00 - [29] - Quote BadAssMcKill wrote: If you're in scram range they're in scram range , and if the Vexor has 5 mediums and 10 lights then I highly doubt you'll survive. Maybe so, but the vexor can only put 5 of them in space at a time, and mediums have a harder time hitting you then lights do, esp. with a prop mod.
Maelle LuzArdiden University of Caille Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.12.16 09:11:00 - [30] - Quote Tippia wrote: GÇªin other words, less than half the ships they're going after. Atron = 35m, Warrior II = 125m? Talos 200m, Hammerhead II 250m? See what I did there, and it's not even in any way relevant. Drone sigs aren't compared to the target sig in any calculation. Quote: Not really. It's the zero transversal that screw them up GÇö MWD bloom (and indeed signature radius as a whole) becomes pretty much irrelevant at that point. They have zero transversal only in a situation where one target travels in a straight course away from the drones, and it literally has to be absolute zero, before sig radius becomes irrelevant. But you forgot other ships on field. Natsett Amuinn wrote: Has CCP ever said why they do this? It seems strange that it would be so large, without there being some reasoning behind it. You are correct, it is clearly a balancing method, and that's why it needs to be revisited now. Have drone stats been checked ever since their introduction? Ships are faster, turrets track better and do more damage, but drone sigs are still huge.

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