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Boiling the Frog

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Yonis Kador Transstellar Alchemy 205	Posted - 2012.12.16 15:24:00 - [1] - Quote Reading through the GD forums on any given day must be enough to give EvE's devs a headache. I feel like I've seen many of these topics hundreds of times. Should we nerf high sec? Should we buff low sec? Is EvE dying? Blame the Goons! I hate these changes so goodbye forever. Would crocodile-infested moats surrounding hubs be beneficial to gameplay? On and on... One particular phrase that's caught my attention lately is the term "boiling the frog." It is the idea that, to get players attacking each other with more frequency, subtle gameplay changes must be made encouraging combat pvp. Some forum posters have accused CCP of using Retribution to nerf mission income in conjunction with the implementation of the bounty system as a first step in this frog boiling process. There's probably some validity to those claims. Soundwave has been quoted as saying one of the most important elements he plans to (understandably) focus on is "maximizing human interaction." And, virtually all recent expansions have attempted to do just this - change the way players interact. With Incursion, well, incursions were introduced providing a new npc platform for fleet ops. Inferno attempted to overhaul the wardec system and FW, again giving players new ways to "interact." And now with Retribution, the bounty system has incentivized pvp combat. Most other changes in the past 4-5 expansions either supported these combat opportunities with new ships (T3 BC, new destroyers) and graphical updates (missile effects, turret animations) or supported them with updates to killmails, the mercenary marketplace, etc. In short, EvE's players have more ways to kill each other than ever before. Frogs aren't just being boiled - they're being fried, sauteed, and fricasseed. So when I see miners and mission runners complain in the forums "Hey! What about us?" I can't help but notice that their pleas mostly fall on deaf ears. And I get it. 1.) Blowing up ships is good for the economy. And fun. 2.) Solo activities contribute least to the quality of pgc. So those activities aren't getting prioritized. But in a mmo where trading and mining are sponsored professions and mission-running is part of the game's tutorial, these activities can't just be ignored forever either. I view EvE as one big organism with a pulmonary system inhaling new players and exhaling old ones and a circulatory system driving players around its extremities. High sec is EvE's big, fat clogged heart. If the goal is to improve the health of EvE by focusing on her circulatory system, leading to increased player interaction, which directly affects the quality of pgc - then the solution is to decrease risk-aversion. Militiarizing the populace might not even be the best solution to accomplish this goal. Who wants to be a bank robber in a world where every teller is armed? It's "a" solution and it might work, but it's also a wannabe gangster vision for the game. Why don't more players venture into low sec on their own? Are they afraid of combat? No, I don't think so. They're afraid of loss. Loss of isk, loss of sp, and loss of a huge time investment. It's ironic that EvE's greatest gameplay attributes are the player-driven economy and it's cutthroat, capitalistic nature. And yet its that same capitalistic accumulation of wealth that largely impedes its own goals. Pvp is fun but not the greatest primary source of income. So what to do? If you want more players to circulate through low sec or explore null sec, I'd suggest removing as much risk as possible, short of making those areas safe. Maybe shift implant bonuses to trainable skills so that players aren't afraid of losing an expensive investment. Maybe start players with an extra clone or make podding have no sp loss. Create low sec missions that sometimes reward players with rare ships or missions that can only be accepted by a fleet. Revamp the tutorials from the ground up, emphasizing there that combat skills must be a priority and make the time needed to upgrade ships scale in a way that promotes retention. Maybe a noob combat academy where upon graduation, players are deemed officers and automatically able to fly frigates, cruisers and destroyers. How about a bonus of some sort for players who join a corp with x members and remain members for x days? Nerf the ehp of and instead weaponize mining barges. (Why anyone thought making the most solitary activity in the game more safe was a good idea is beyond me.) Vary npc spawns in missions and high-sec belts. Add triggers that spawn more npcs in high-sec belt spawns. I can do this all day. There are tons of ways to increase player confidence and thus circulation beside militarizing the populace. Keep the new content coming but the availability of weapons was never an issue. Yet, if done in conjunction with a campaign to reduce risk-aversion, low sec will be invaded and the quality of pgc will be better than ever. It just seems to me that there's no need to boil the frog. CCP has already bountied, wardecced, and ganked the frog. They've turned the frog into the Terminator. All they need to do now is give the frog less of a reason to fear death. Yonis Kador "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day."
Djana Libra The Black Ops Black Core Alliance 29	Posted - 2012.12.16 16:06:00 - [2] - Quote and you could not have posted this as a reply in one of the other gazillion threads?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1930	Posted - 2012.12.16 16:12:00 - [3] - Quote Djana Libra wrote: and you could not have posted this as a reply in one of the other gazillion threads? Yonis Kador wrote: It just seems to me that there's no need to boil the frog. CCP has already bountied, wardecced, and ganked the frog. They've turned the frog into the Terminator. The frog... will be back. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Stegas Tyrano GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy 63	Posted - 2012.12.16 16:14:00 - [4] - Quote Make it easier to get jump clones, people can already avoid the grind by joining corps who provide it. Why not just remove the standing grind and make it priced based. Or at least give new players a JC when they start out.
Sentamon 374	Posted - 2012.12.16 16:40:00 - [5] - Quote boiling the frog! sounds like one of those global warming gloom and doom, give us your money or everyone will die videos ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 757	Posted - 2012.12.16 16:41:00 - [6] - Quote obviously this thread is unique.
Bienator II madmen of the skies 1223	Posted - 2012.12.16 16:58:00 - [7] - Quote the answer for your questions: nerf highsec, buff lowsec and blame the goons a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon 257	Posted - 2012.12.16 17:00:00 - [8] - Quote FYI the thing with the frog...it does not work "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
Borascus Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance 159	Posted - 2012.12.16 17:29:00 - [9] - Quote Yonis Kador wrote: Soundwave has been quoted as saying one of the most important elements he plans to (understandably) focus on is "maximizing human interaction." The test-bed market lobby in Jita as part of a WiS programme would put all the Traders in proximity, with walking pictures social interaction would go up, if a timer for 1hr "market hub - chamber still slightly contaminated", people could interact with the 1-hour club but then be forced to return to CQ/Ship/Undock adding a mixing pot aspect. The main thing you'll see in EVE are ships, and would remain so. Maximising destruction and keeping the ethos alive is something that could be brought about with one thing, encouragement and friendly faces. Not saying you have to like everybody in EVE, you'd get walked all over. If smack-talking was wholly avoided there could even be laughter... imagine... Get in the van, park it over there.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder 1214	Posted - 2012.12.16 17:44:00 - [10] - Quote Stegas Tyrano wrote: Make it easier to get jump clones, people can already avoid the grind by joining corps who provide it. Why not just remove the standing grind and make it priced based. Or at least give new players a JC when they start out. Even I think this is a horrible idea. -á"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

Ptraci 3 R Corporation The Irukandji 752	Posted - 2012.12.17 01:03:00 - [11] - Quote Of course no frog is dumb enough to boil to death in this manner. At some point when he feels uncomfortable he will jump out of the water.
Ginger Barbarella Estel Arador Corp Services 336	Posted - 2012.12.17 01:06:00 - [12] - Quote Ptraci wrote: Of course no frog is dumb enough to boil to death in this manner. At some point when he feels uncomfortable he will jump out of the water. Only idiots base their logic entirely on false analogies. It's our duty to laugh them out of the place. Fly Minmatar Air --- "Trust in the Rust!"
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 253	Posted - 2012.12.17 01:33:00 - [13] - Quote So far, almost every new feature that CCP has added to "increase player interactions" has been nothing more than creating new excuses for them to shoot at each other. Incursions are the only one I can think of that actually increases player cooperation - large groups of potential strangers will fleet up and work together towards a common goal. Other than that, though, it's seriously been nothing but more & more ways for players to blow up each other's ships. Wait, let me rephrase that: More and more ways for players to blow up each others investments. And as OP said, EvE places a big emphasis on protecting one's investments because we have to work to achieve all of them. This is precisely why you see PvP being done casually by... which type of groups? The "Free Ship Replacement" groups of course! Players with no investment in their ships will happily takes risks and throw them away for PvP giggles. This, naturally, avoids the questions of where these so-called "free ships" are coming from. If you ask me, you want to know where all those "mining bots" are really operating, there's your answer. So here we have this constant increase in PvP activity and an ever increasing level of risk for all pilots. Yes, we know that no one is ever safe once they undock but the slow devolution here is indeed the turning hisec of into just another PvP warzone like everything else. All carebare concerns aside, this does not bode well for new players. New players who actually think a million ISK is a lot of money and find themselves getting ganked in ships that they've personally invested time & energy into - they don't want or need to the victims of your PvP jollies. And to prove it they will quit the game because of it. Shame CCP can't seem to get that through their heads. Stupid that nullbears want to burn the cribs that they were born in themselves. New patches are constantly increasing risk and diminishing rewards. Does CCP honestly think that they can make this game work, heck even survive, by only catering to that tiny (yet vocal) fraction of players in the "hundred million SP club" all living out in null? Do they really think that scaring off new players to appease the ganking desires of the old players is a viable business model? CCP is sacrificing their young to feed the old. It's a road that ends in extinction. I predict that by 2020 when a new player comes to EvE the character creation screen will say: "Choose from one of the three major races: Goon, Test or AAA. Choose from one of the three starting professions: Blobber, Gatecamp Bot, Mining Bot * = special software download required Choose an avatar: Smirking douche with fauxhawk, bald douche in sunglasses or bimbo with absurd boob size. All new players will begin in 0.0 because the whole map is 0.0. In six months you will be assigned a ship according to your role. Until then simply download & install our Skill Queue Update application and wait until we call you back to let you know when your character is worthy of undocking in one of our ships. Alert! Our records show that you only have one subscribed account. This game requires a minimum of three subscriptions to play. Please go back and add more to continue. Can't afford it? HTFU or GTFU, pleb. Sincerely, CCP." Can't see that happening? Right, that's because such a game will be out of business by the end of the second month. Yet that is exactly the game that the CSM and CCP are moving towards. Their obsession with destruction will ultimately destroy the game itself.. EvE Forum Bingo
Ginger Barbarella Estel Arador Corp Services 336	Posted - 2012.12.17 01:39:00 - [14] - Quote Katran Luftschreck wrote: Can't see that happening? Right, that's because such a game will be out of business by the end of the second month. Yet that is exactly the game that the CSM and CCP are moving towards. Their obsession with destruction will ultimately destroy the game itself.. It's clear that they'll regain all the failquitter bitter vets with the Dark Vampire game thingy... you're being too harsh on CCP. Fly Minmatar Air --- "Trust in the Rust!"
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1932	Posted - 2012.12.17 01:42:00 - [15] - Quote Katran Luftschreck wrote: Stupid that nullbears want to burn the cribs that they were born in themselves. As a goon newbie, my crib was definitely the horrible land of Deklein. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings Damu'Khonde 2140	Posted - 2012.12.17 16:45:00 - [16] - Quote Katran Luftschreck wrote: ~snip~ I love me a good strawman. You're working off of several very false assumptions: "new excuses for them to shoot each other" doesn't engender cooperation -- yes, it does. In fact, PvP is so group-friendly that it is often bemoaned that solo pilots or very small gangs have too hard a time. I get that you're hinting at PvE collaborative activities, but Eve is (as it is always advertised) a sandbox about conflict and emergent behavior. PvE does neither of those, so it tends to be "second class". PvP is only done by "free ship replacement" groups -- Really? Have you ever been part of a typical PvP corp and seen how little is actually replaced for free? "Free ship replacement" is usually a program to make people more comfortable flying "certain death" ships like interdictors, logistics, etc. Ship replacement is paid for by botting, plus an accusation that nullsec(?) is full of mining bots -- Have you seen CCP's fanfest presentation about where botting happens? Because it's certainly not in PvP territory; it's too dangerous there. Newbies get ganked and bankrupted because a couple million ISK is a lot for them. If they flew appropriate ships for their wallets/experience, they wouldn't be ganked. A newbie in a destroyer or cruiser gets no attention at all; who would want to gank that? A newbie who PLEX'd himself up and is flying a several hundred million ISK ship will get ganked into the ground. They quit because of this. As above, I doubt this is the reason newbies quit. Lack of new player retention is unfortunate, but the solution is better education and management, not dumbing down the game. CCP is sacrificing the young to feed the old. If "the young" are hisec players who have often been playing for years and years, who insist that they should make obnoxious amounts of ISK without any risk of loss, then yeah, you're right. If "the young" are genuine new players, that assertion makes no sense. Believe it or not, there are already things to do that do not fall into the extremes of hisec all-day grinding (which turns you into a bot), or nullsec grinding/megablobbing (which turns you into a tool). By diversifying methods of player conflict, CCP is trying to make this be even more true -- the opposite direction of a braindead blob-fest that your doomsday strawman points to. Eve is not Farmville. Amassing wealth and assets without conflict with others is not -- and should never be -- an option. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - low/nullsec operations, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com
Tear Miner Republic University Minmatar Republic 145	Posted - 2012.12.17 16:59:00 - [17] - Quote Publord #233523 sounding off.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder 1220	Posted - 2012.12.17 17:01:00 - [18] - Quote Seriously the only legitimate posting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog -á"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
Arec Bardwin 806	Posted - 2012.12.17 17:03:00 - [19] - Quote Does frog meat taste anything like chicken?
Tear Miner Republic University Minmatar Republic 145	Posted - 2012.12.17 17:07:00 - [20] - Quote Arec Bardwin wrote: Does frog meat taste anything like chicken? Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frog_legs

Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder 1225	Posted - 2012.12.17 19:46:00 - [21] - Quote Arec Bardwin wrote: Does frog meat taste anything like chicken? Only had them a few times in Arkansas 40 years ago when my friend's mother would make them. Yes, they really do. Except for the slightly different shape, you would never know. edit: just remembered that a few Vietnamese restaurants have them in San Francisco. -á"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
War Kitten Panda McLegion 1512	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:11:00 - [22] - Quote Relevant frog analogy? I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder 1225	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:28:00 - [23] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Relevant frog analogy? Erm...no. (It's the idiotic infamous KErmit Picture for those curious). So 3-years-ago. -á"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
Callic Veratar Power of the Phoenix 289	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:34:00 - [24] - Quote Came looking for a recipe. Disappointed.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder 1225	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:39:00 - [25] - Quote French: http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Sauteacuteed-Frogs-Legs-Cuisses-de-Grenouille-agrave-la-Provencale or Vietnamese: http://www.vietnamese-recipes.com/vietnamese-recipes/meat/sauteed-frog-legs-with-lemon-grass.php -á"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1421	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:40:00 - [26] - Quote Removed an off topic link. Please keep it on topic. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Tyraeil Starblade Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords 28	Posted - 2012.12.17 22:30:00 - [27] - Quote Came expecting derision about Gallente Militia. Left disappointed.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder 1229	Posted - 2012.12.17 23:19:00 - [28] - Quote Tyraeil Starblade wrote: Came expecting derision about Gallente Militia. Left disappointed. OMG. I get it. that's....kinda not right. -á"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

ISD Suvetar ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1242	Posted - 2012.12.17 23:34:00 - [29] - Quote Hi, I've just cleaned up the more unfriendly and off-topic comments; please remember that racial epithets, even in jest are considered very seriously. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Surfin's PlunderBunny Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4512	Posted - 2012.12.17 23:36:00 - [30] - Quote ISD Suvetar wrote: Hi, I've just cleaned up the more unfriendly and off-topic comments; please remember that racial epithets, even in jest are considered very seriously. I can't help but think this was directed to the guy standing behind me "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á



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