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Well if you must nerf insta's, here's the fair way

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SghnDubh	Posted - 2005.05.22 23:29:00 - [1] I'm hearing rumours about instas potentially being nerfed--such as not being able to even make them within 15 km of a gate, etc. Rubbish! If you ask me, leave them alone. But if instanerf must happen, then here's the fair way to do it: Any bookmark made anywhere will have a randomized range of 0-10km. So when I warp to my bookmark, I have a random chance of warping anywhere from 0 to 10km from that bookmark. Here's the logic. Ever notice that you can't "get a sensor lock" on a can at 200km, which means you have to truck over to it on "impulse" power? Well, a bookmark is a helluva lot smaller than a can...but because the BM was made in your nav computer, and your nav computer is hypothetically accurate, well, then you should be able to mark an empty spot in space, give or take 10km. If I could spell Heizenberg then I'd probably talk about the effects of that principle on bookmarks as well. Anyway, a random pop between 0 & 10km allows people to keep their safe spots, gets them near their favourite mining areas, and still allows fairly fast travel between jumps. But it takes away the exploit aspect of insta's when running camped gates -- and adds a wee bit more excitment to the mix :) What doesn't kill you makes you stronger... Fight Smart: www.BattleClinic.com
Jaydom	Posted - 2005.05.22 23:32:00 - [2] As much as I agree they're a pain..I'll be the first to say im lazy and moving an apoc at 150m/s over 10 jumps would drive me nuts :) Flame away.
BlueSmok	Posted - 2005.05.22 23:38:00 - [3] Edited by: BlueSmok on 22/05/2005 23:38:36 If they nerf insta bookmarks they better do something about gate camping. Or else... it's really going to suck... BTW has anyone been keeping up with Lord of the rings online? Absolutely no PVP.... hrm next year release date... Better get working Devs... *Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. Bene Gesserit Coda
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.22 23:46:00 - [4] BSes are supposed to be slow. Instas break the game. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
FrontC	Posted - 2005.05.22 23:47:00 - [5] Originally by: BlueSmok Edited by: BlueSmok on 22/05/2005 23:38:36 If they nerf insta bookmarks they better do something about gate camping. Or else... it's really going to suck... BTW has anyone been keeping up with Lord of the rings online? Absolutely no PVP.... hrm next year release date... Better get working Devs... Totally agree, I'm tired of being cannon fodder for the "l33t" teams of uber pirates who think it's fun for everyone to fire on every indy that crosses their path. I'm all for PvP, but to eliminate insta's would be a mistake.
BlueSmok	Posted - 2005.05.22 23:58:00 - [6] How about doing away with Gates entirely and giving each ship jump drives? I know it would require a major overhaul but it's the only Idea I can come up with to move combat away from gates.. Use would require you be within a 1au area of where the current jump gates are, only able to jump to the next system from there. Would also like to be able to point to an area in system on the f11 map and get a "warp Here" option... If a group wants to keep people from their area will need to have sensor nets setup to detect incoming ships. As it is currently it's like a conveyor system with newbs being moved along down the line towards the chopping block. *Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. Bene Gesserit Coda
brentgod	Posted - 2005.05.23 00:56:00 - [7] There is already a way to stop people from instajumping. ITs called a Mobile warp disruptor. This allows people to travel arround normally untill they actaully run into a gate camp. Then if the guy that set up the mobile warp disruptor knows wat he is doing the enemy lands up to 30km from the gate. So now people can camp gates. People can travel quickly thru gates. We can keep all our bookmarks. If people landed 10km from gate hauling would become unproffitable in 0.0
Judas Kirk	Posted - 2005.05.23 01:05:00 - [8] Short of a new skill or module that improves gate accuracy, removing instas will ensure noone goes to 0.0. Thing is, with a skill, it's going to be the same as having instas, same with a module. Everyone's going to get that, or train it right up to lvl5 and we're right back where we started, carebears insta-ing along, and pie rats whining. Instas are not perfect, and warp disrupters can break them. CCP leave these things alone. The balance is perfect now
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.05.23 01:12:00 - [9] Quote: BTW has anyone been keeping up with Lord of the rings online? Absolutely no PVP.... hrm next year release date... Better get working Devs... Absolutely no PvP in a MMORPG!? MADNESS! Go play WoW/SWG/EQ/EQ2/UO/etc, I'll be over here doing the happy no-instas dance. ---------------- Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun!
Lo3d3R	Posted - 2005.05.23 01:56:00 - [10] just imagine the ammount of whining there will be about people losing there ships, oh joy, removing insta's and im in the right business :D no more sneekyness come to loeder, let me test my gun on your badgerass
Noriath	Posted - 2005.05.23 03:09:00 - [11] The problem with instas is that right now there is no reasonable way to escape frequent RPK other then using them. Once that problem has been adressed they have to go...
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.05.23 03:25:00 - [12] I told my corp members almost a year ago that one day they will change insta bookmarks. They will change them by making them useless. The reason is not really PvP or any other imbalance, it's the server load. Eve server already hit item No 2 bill some time ago, compare the number of your own assets with the number of your total bookmarks and guess how many of those are already polluting the databank.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.05.23 03:43:00 - [13] Regardless of if you agree with the Empire Hugging carebear's opinion that "0.0 is death waiting to happen", that opinion exists in the minds of many Empire dwellers. (and is not entirely untrue, even if it is not entirely true.....) CCP wants more folks in 0.0...... I doubt there will be an insta nerf IF CCP is serious about wanting more folks in 0.0. If CCP is not serious about wanting more folks in 0.0, then maybe there will be a nerf.
Supersam	Posted - 2005.05.23 04:35:00 - [14] if they remove IJs, it won't effect anyone except new players. Older players will simply learn to adapt and rather than making trade runs and mining in 0.0 their new busines will be grouping up and killing gate gankers. With the right group you can make as much killing gankers as gankers make killing newbs and retarded players. --------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) Bunny 4TW
Fillmeup	Posted - 2005.05.23 04:40:00 - [15] My 2 isk worth ... If CCP remove instajumps w/o a radical new way of moving through space, watch the true Exodus begin. The Exodus I am referring to is from the game in general, not to 0.0 space. Ive played the game for around 2 years, and have been both a 'empire-hugging carebare' and a gate camping bugger and I can tell you that BM's are not the problem some people like to whine over. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that gate camping is currently too easy. Travelling is a pain in Eve regardless - you need to jump 16 systems, kiss 1-hour of your play time good bye if in a hauler. Hit a pirate gate camp, then kiss that time goodbye completely. I don't believe we should make it easier to travel, and I also don't believe we should make it easier to mindlessly gank. The idea posted sounds good, but TBH, I would rather they weren't touched at all. Leave BM's as is ....
Noriath	Posted - 2005.05.23 04:49:00 - [16] Edited by: Noriath on 23/05/2005 04:50:34 If CCP wants people in 0.0 they have to allow alliances to place defenses at gates and use ships to create their own NPC police force. If CCP wants people in 0.0 they have to reduce the profitability of solo-grinding in empire space, especially in missions. If CCP wants people in 0.0 they need to make Tech 2 blueprints availible so that moon mining becomes atractive to all manufacturing based character, not just a lucky few. If CCP wants people in 0.0 they have to eliminate alt character and trial-account abuse that allows risky behaviour without risking anything. If CCP wants people in 0.0 they have to add more serious consequences to destroying ships, so that people won't do it if they have nothing to gain from it. If CCP wants people in 0.0 they have to think about how appealing a combat system where whole battleships can be pulverized in seconds is to people who don't want to fight at all. If CCP wants people in 0.0 they have to create a system where even tech 1 frigs and cruisers are a valuable asset to an alliance and not just conon fodder. Bookmakrs simply don't have anything to do with it at all... Just because they allow you to escape out of controll ganking with some success, they still only treat the symptoms, not the disease.
Akaviri	Posted - 2005.05.23 05:09:00 - [17] Instas are fine the way they are. If you can't catch someone on one side of a gate due to instas, then you should be camping both sides of the gate. The biggest problem with their removal is that it would discourage people from leaving 0.5+ systems. Right now there isn't too much that encourages ppl to go into low sec space or 0.0. The risk for using 0.0 space would increase but the rewards wouldn't. We'd just have more ppl doing missions and mining in safe space. Also, it would drive the pvp aspect of the game to be even more group oriented. This change would discourage solo pvping and encourage more blobbing. ````````````` _ \|\_ ````````````` \` oo\ ````````_____/ =__Y= `````` /` `````` ) `_``` / ` , ``` \/\_.(\_/) ((____\| `` )_--\ \_-`(x.x) `------'`------` `--` (> <) Kitty pwns Bunny!
Alter Nomen	Posted - 2005.05.23 05:20:00 - [18] A) Everyone has instas. Those who dont make or buy them, np. This is just stupid, and loads database with unnesesary records multiplied by number of pilots. B) No1 wants to spend time traveling C) Then bs with instats travels with no regards to its speed whatsover its wrong. Same with insta docks D) You can't remove marks because we need safes, marked cans and roids and so on. Solution: - Remove all marks in a grids of gates and stations. They just take resources. - Add warp option "to gate/station". - This new option however would have some "margin of error" say from 3km to 10km. - If the gate/station grid has no other pilots you always jump on 3km. The more ppl are in the grid the more chance for you to hit 10km mark. (also would force ppl out of the highways and populated systems which is nice.) - As for the rest of the bookmarks, I say make a limit - 20, 30 marks are enough for any1. But you cant mark gate/station grid anyway Everyone should have a right for FAST TRAVEL ON AUTOPILOT just watch for bad ppl. Now any 0.0 travel is a full-time clicking job.
Aleksey Azameen	Posted - 2005.05.23 06:10:00 - [19] I'd say get rid of them around the gates and the station, then change the mechanics so that you can warp to within 5km. Seems reasonable to me. \|\|AlEkSeY\|\| Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
Rihiawg	Posted - 2005.05.23 06:26:00 - [20] Just make them clientside. If you reformat/reinstall Eve and have no backups... tough. Serverload fixed...
Noriath	Posted - 2005.05.23 06:30:00 - [21] Yea, make them clientside, so someone with a bit of programming knowledge can make instas anywhere from thin air, maybe even write a tool that allows any idiot to do it...
Rihiawg	Posted - 2005.05.23 06:32:00 - [22] Fair point,but the problem remains,hours of travel without them will suck bigstyle.
Stratharn	Posted - 2005.05.23 06:46:00 - [23] Honestly, that's just tough. Instas may be the only way to get past gate campers reliably as it stands, but you'd hope that if CCP were going to 'nerf' the ability to create instas, they'd put something in to discourage random ganking... which is, quite frankly, a pain when you can only get into 0.0 through a few corridor systems. Rob http://psygnal.blogspot.com/
anter	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:04:00 - [24] 0-10km from gate/bm could be something like this and it would give message to play when jump activates, so he have a idea how hes jump worked: 0-1km 10% change - "perfect jump" 1-2km 30% change 2-5km 50% change 6-7km 30% change 7-8km 15% change 8-10km 5% change - "jump failed" Then there would be skills/mods for ships that improves your changes for more accurate jumps. But I will be happy what ever they do as long instas will be gone and battleship will be slow as they should.
infused	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:16:00 - [25] Edited by: infused on 23/05/2005 07:18:39 If they nerfed instas, ALOT of people would leave the game... That is, if nothing was put in its place. I'm all for the skill idea which the above poster has posted. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
zaqq	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:19:00 - [26] I would consider insta removal IF, it was put in place that NO,repeat NO ship was able to mount multiples of any damage or module that currently recieves a penalty (or should do/does) for stacking, period. This would go some way to lessening the "die in seconds scenario" we have now by campers. note, I said lessening, not stopping.
Garia666	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:23:00 - [27] Wot!! are they going to nerf that now aswell!! ??? CCP get you hanbds of the game for a year.. We need to recover from current changes!!!
Garia666	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:23:00 - [28] Wot!! are they going to nerf that now aswell!! ??? CCP get you hands of the game for a year.. We need to recover from current changes!!!
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:29:00 - [29] Wait? Aren't bookmarks and such stored clientside already? Why else would we be making backups when reinstalling? I only fly frigate sized vessels, so I only need instas to get past campers, therefore I won't join the idiocy about having them in place/gotten rid off/replaced by something. However, campers shooting at me and alliance people telling me to leave all the time is why I don't go to 0.0. It has not so much to do with empire space being more profitable, I really wanna go to 0.0 but people won't let me. It is no fun living in fear.
Viceroy	Posted - 2005.05.23 07:36:00 - [30] How are instas the only way past gate campers? How will they make travel time absolutely horrible? You're all looking at this from a fixed point of view, and you also somewhow assume that only YOU will be shafted, and everyone else will still have instas. I'm not going to argue about how much instas suck, and how huge an advantage they provide for no drawbacks, and how they screw up the game. It's already been explained 5 billion times, and if you don't get it, it's either because you're a vegetable, or you don't want to get it for some reason or another. I do agree that 15km per gate is high without instajumps. Let's face it, travelling isn't fun, but that doesn't mean all systems should be about 5 minutes apart from eachother. Reducing the warp-in range to 7.5km, and removing instajumps all together would be nice, since 5km isn't a huge range to go, and if you can't go 5km without getting blown up and whine about it, face it, you have no place in the evolutionary cycle in the first place. The problem is that you want to be near invulnerable in an inheritly vulnerable ship, not that gatecamps suck so bad. Firstly, saying that instajumps are the only way past gate camps is stupid. Instajumps are the only way to sneak past gate camps in a big ship that would otherwise die before getting in jump range. "Oh but you can catch people on the otherside!". It's pretty much the same thing; aligning for warp takes only a few seconds, and with a big ship you can cram warpcores in your low slots to make sure you're never caught. In either case, the problem isn't gate camps being so powerful, it's that people assume that big fat ships should be as almost fast and invincible as interceptors. You can easily run gate camps with fast ships like frigates and interceptors, and guess what; thats the point of having a fast ship with low firepower, mobility. Also, since the NWO will hit before any instajump nerf, we're going to have literally dozens of new chokepoints, which make gate camps much less "blobbed" and dangerous. I'm pretty sure that most exists will be totally vacant, since even the current ones are easy to find empty. Also saying that travel times will suck so much is also stupid. Travel times will suck for big ships, as they should. Currently battleships do not only sport collosal firepower, but also insane travelling abilities. The result is 50 bships blobs going from Venal to Curse on sunday nights for roadtrips (Done it, was great fun), and getting back in less than 1-2 hours. Without instajumps, cruisers and frigates will finally have a decisive logistical/strategic advantage over battleships other than being "cheap and expendable". Fleets will not be based on "How many battleships do they have?" because no one will be arsed to haul their battleship 50 jumps for a fight. That includes you and every other player, not just one faction. You'll just have to use battleships with their intended slowness instead of instapwn platforms. Secondly, with the NWO we're going to see that huge clusterblob called the hub removed, thus the need to travel to Yulai to sell your loot etc. will be gone. Regional economies anyone? Domestic markets? Travel times won't suck, you just won't have to travel into a 200 person lagstorm to play the game efficiently. Instajumps turn EVE into a sandbox, along with the highways and dare I say level4 agents. They dumb down the game to the level of stupid, where the false sense of accomplishment is gained by easy-way-outs like bookmarks and grinds. I'm sure some people like that, but I don't. I prefer a competitive game with player interaction, where rewards are based on how well you use your brains and balls instead of how much time you sink and how well you can use the pre-packaged "smarts" like instajumps. This is my opinion (Which coincidentally seems to be right 100% of the time), and as far as I've seen, it's also the vision behind EVE which makes it unique. But I agree that with the NWO and eventual removal of instajumps (Ho ho, yes it's coming), there should be some other changes aswell, like an overhaul of the trade system (Empire/Region unique ore/commodities etc), a big fat nerf for ganking (makes me cry), increased mobility for non-battleships (love for cruisers) etc. So yeah, thats all I have to say, mainly because I haven't slept for over a day. -

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