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Jealousy Asques
Blue Tridents
Yulai Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a serious exploit that needs to be addressed. I know you guys allow and even encourage scamming, but this is going too far. There is no way in game to check if a buyer actually has the cash to cover his buy order margins, and I see this exploited all over the place. You can't even see who the buyer is before you buy, and bank upon his reputation. Scams are one thing, but scams with no countermeasures are too much. There are plenty of expensive items that are 100% believeably priced in the hundreds of millions of isk. Scammers place a buy order for a tempting price, and then drain their accounts of money so that it can never be filled. They then sell the same item elsewhere for inflated prices still well below their buy order. There is often no way to investigate the true value of the item if there is little or no trade history, and prices naturally fluctuate for rare items. This ruins high end trade markets! I'm not going to risk an investment if there is no assurance that buy orders are valid. It's one thing that people can cancel them before I get there, but another to let them leave bogus orders up when they arent even online. When I first found out about this tactic I could not believe that it was allowed. There are enough other ways to scam people in this game. DO SOMETHING about this one.
Thank you...
I'm sure it will go no-where, but if enough people make a stink, who knows? I'm a newer player and I'm sure everyone thats been around a while has become complacent or just doesnt care about this, but come on... This is very lame and goes above and beyond Eve's "no hold's barred" spirit. And no I did not fall for this, but I almost did. As I say it ruins the trading market for rare, high dollar items. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
405
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 14:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Solution: don't fill buy orders, sell all of your stuff yourself.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Jealousy Asques
Blue Tridents
Yulai Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option. |
Jealousy Asques
Blue Tridents
Yulai Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Solution: don't fill buy orders, sell all of your stuff yourself.
This is not a solution. Usefull comments only please. |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
111
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 14:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option.
I'd have no issues with this really.
I've always thought that buy/sell orders should be labeled or such anyway, I'd like to sell things from my corporation and have them known by name. Just let people pick anonymous or not when posting it.
"I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force
Lawful Insanity
5
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
I tried man, Devs seem not to care or even bother commenting about it.
Looking for counter arguments/prepare yourself for their lame excuses here is my thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=170441 |
Kehro Urgus
Ab Obice Saevior
575
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 14:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Seriously, those margin scams stick out like a sore thumb. If you fall for it, trading isn't what you should be doing. 
Nibiru approaches... so give me all your stuff.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
3182
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:This is a serious exploit
Stopped reading right here.
When the OP tries to inflate a minor scam to a major exploit you know the thread might go places, but it's unlikely to be of much value. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
407
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:This is not a solution. Usefull comments only please
Oh, it most certainly is a solution. If you never attempt to fill buy orders, but instead set up your own sales then you are NEVER going to fall for a margin scam. Ever.
Not to mention your margins will be bigger. It's a win-win!
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
120
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:This is a serious exploit that needs to be addressed. I know you guys allow and even encourage scamming, but this is going too far. There is no way in game to check if a buyer actually has the cash to cover his buy order margins, and I see this exploited all over the place. You can't even see who the buyer is before you buy, and bank upon his reputation. Scams are one thing, but scams with no countermeasures are too much. There are plenty of expensive items that are 100% believeably priced in the hundreds of millions of isk. Scammers place a buy order for a tempting price, and then drain their accounts of money so that it can never be filled. They then sell the same item elsewhere for inflated prices still well below their buy order. There is often no way to investigate the true value of the item if there is little or no trade history, and prices naturally fluctuate for rare items. This ruins high end trade markets! I'm not going to risk an investment if there is no assurance that buy orders are valid. It's one thing that people can cancel them before I get there, but another to let them leave bogus orders up when they arent even online. When I first found out about this tactic I could not believe that it was allowed. There are enough other ways to scam people in this game. DO SOMETHING about this one.
Thank you...
Stupid is as stupid does -Michael Jackson |
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Sarmea Moon
Universal Freelance
CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
93
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Solution: Same as real life- don't invest in anything without doing your homework.
If none have sold in the last 90 days in your region, take 5 minutes to log an alt into The Forge and check their market. Still no trade in the last 90 days? There is no market for the item and it's a scam. We do have module channels you can get price checks and valuations as a backup. Even legit trades in rare items can go sideways fast. Don't trade in those items unless you know what you are doing.
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll |
Aziesta
Sathainn Braithrean Cartel
221
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:Stitcher wrote:Solution: don't fill buy orders, sell all of your stuff yourself. This is not a solution. Usefull comments only please.
Not all solutions involve Devs coming in and changing things to fit your playstyle. |
Disciple Amphal
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
How much ISK did you lose?
I know it sucks but you just gotta realize if it looks too good to be true it more than likely is a scam.
Good news is I bet you wont fall for it again. |
Random McNally
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
103
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Posted - 2012.12.20 14:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aziesta wrote:Jealousy Asques wrote:Stitcher wrote:Solution: don't fill buy orders, sell all of your stuff yourself. This is not a solution. Usefull comments only please. Not all solutions involve Devs coming in and changing things to fit your playstyle.
This right here. ^^ |
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
If a market order looks to good to be true it probably is, always practice caution when attempting some get rich quick scheme on the market.
That said it's easy to exploit new players using margin scams, maybe to easy...
GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
112
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm not going to say its easy to fall for, its glaringly obvious 99% of the time, but it is an exploit/problem of game mechanics instead of a real scam in regards to how it works. That I think qualifies it for a fix.
"I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
You never have any guarantee that a buy order will still be there, margin trading or not.
Furthermore, the entire game of arbitrage is research, which you failed to do.
You took a risk with the intention of profiting from that risk, and you failed to do so, as was an inherent possibility of said risk.
TL;DR Cry some more. They're never going to change it. |
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
37
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hello good Sir/Madam,
I'm wealthy Nigerian prince who wants to buy VW Beetle from year 1967 for bazillion euros/dollars. Unfortunately my country very poor and cannot afford VW dealer. Will you kindly buy one for me from your local dealer for cheap price of one million euros/dollars. I promise to buy it from you as soon as banks open in my country. Please enclose details where payment due.
Thank you kindly. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
It looked to good to be true, and it was. A fool and his money.
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
199
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
TR4D3R4LT wrote:Hello good Sir/Madam,
I'm wealthy Nigerian prince who wants to buy VW Beetle from year 1967 for bazillion euros/dollars. Unfortunately my country very poor and cannot afford VW dealer. Will you kindly buy one for me from your local dealer for cheap price of one million euros/dollars. I promise to buy it from you as soon as banks open in my country. Please enclose details where payment due.
Thank you kindly.
Hahaha, nobody could be stupid enough to fall for that!
EDIT: Oh wait.
So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve
There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
814
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Darenthul wrote:Jealousy Asques wrote:A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option. I'd have no issues with this really. I've always thought that buy/sell orders should be labeled or such anyway, I'd like to sell things from my corporation and have them known by name. Just let people pick anonymous or not when posting it.
I shouldn't be required to divulge who I am before you buy from me. If they wanted to put in an option to allow your name to appear on the market, beside your order, that would be fine. It shouldn't be required though.
If CCP doesn't want you to do this, they should just make the order default to the next buy order and have you confirm the transaction so that you know the one you tried to sell to doesn't have the isk to cover.
Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention.
Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would. |
Kehro Urgus
Ab Obice Saevior
575
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:TR4D3R4LT wrote:Hello good Sir/Madam,
I'm wealthy Nigerian prince who wants to buy VW Beetle from year 1967 for bazillion euros/dollars. Unfortunately my country very poor and cannot afford VW dealer. Will you kindly buy one for me from your local dealer for cheap price of one million euros/dollars. I promise to buy it from you as soon as banks open in my country. Please enclose details where payment due.
Thank you kindly. Hahaha, nobody could be stupid enough to fall for that! EDIT: Oh wait.
That's nothing. I got a letter in the mail that some rich relatives of mine died recently in a car crash in France. The postmark was from Paris so it had to be true.
Nibiru approaches... so give me all your stuff.
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Jealousy Asques
Blue Tridents
Yulai Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
So there's alot of pricks that want to put in their useless $.02. Fine. My solution to make it so people can see if the buy order is currently capable of being filled harms nobody but the scammers. The only reason that some of these scams are "glaringly obvious" is because the scammers make it obvious. If they were smarter and didn't try for quite so much, they'd get alot further, and I'm sure some of them do. Also, if you'd notice, I said that I did not fall for this. I almost did. The real issue here is that it hurts the trading market for high end items. You can't make a living trading them. You can sell what you come by thru pve etc, but you can't play the market with them.
Other than that, idiot pricks stfu. |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
115
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Darenthul wrote:Jealousy Asques wrote:A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option. I'd have no issues with this really. I've always thought that buy/sell orders should be labeled or such anyway, I'd like to sell things from my corporation and have them known by name. Just let people pick anonymous or not when posting it. I shouldn't be required to divulge who I am before you buy from me. If they wanted to put in an option to allow your name to appear on the market, beside your order, that would be fine. It shouldn't be required though. If CCP doesn't want you to do this, they should just make the order default to the next buy order and have you confirm the transaction so that you know the one you tried to sell to doesn't have the isk to cover. Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention. Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would.
Oh of course not, I understand anonymous trading is a massive part of it. I think that effectively posting under a name is a risky endeavor. If people see you flooding the market or such under a single name, it changes how they choose to purchase products.
However even in EVE where there isn't a feasible difference, you can create a proper brand identity and it could improve sales or drop them. Its a risk thing.
Its why I think it should be optional (defaulting to anonymous) where players who sell anon effectively sell through a market entity and others to sell publicly.
But I digress, on the topic of the current discussion I can't really say too much, while I get the gist of the scam, it still seems like more of an exploit of game mechanics than an exploit of stupidity. Is it without a doubt always possible to recognize one of these margin scams? Or is it possible to do it completely invisibly for smaller returns?
"I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |
Taria Katelo
South West Trading
12
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
just check the price history it always tells you everything you need to know and you can avoid every margin trade scam with it. if you don't use it then its your own fault for being too greedy. The only people that get scammed are the geedy ones. |
Jealousy Asques
Blue Tridents
Yulai Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention.
Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would.
Yes, trying to scam is one thing, but you should be able to research it and protect yourself. Don't tell me to check history. Some rarer items have very little history if any at all, and relyin on this takes those items out of the trading game. If current capability to complete the order was displayed, at least they couldn't pull this one while offline. |
Jealousy Asques
Blue Tridents
Yulai Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Darenthul wrote:
But I digress, on the topic of the current discussion I can't really say too much, while I get the gist of the scam, it still seems like more of an exploit of game mechanics than an exploit of stupidity. Is it without a doubt always possible to recognize one of these margin scams? Or is it possible to do it completely invisibly for smaller returns?
It is very possible to do this invisibly for smaller returns. |
Kehro Urgus
Ab Obice Saevior
575
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bounty payouts are secured... just sayin'. 
Nibiru approaches... so give me all your stuff.
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RomeStar
Astra Research
66
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
You see alot of posts on this thread dogging the OP and saying leave it alone . Those posters are more than likey the ones who implement the scams. If not then why do you care if this is fixed or not? The only truely good aspect of the margin scam is the post on the forums from players who have fell for it. That would be the only reason to keep it in game but im sure we can find something else to laugh at them about instead.
Signatured removed, CCP Phantom |
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:... My solution to make it so people can see if the buy order is currently capable of being filled harms nobody but the scammers...
Actually, the "scam" part of the whole deal is selling overpriced stuff to people. Unless your suggestion somehow prevents either people listing rifters for 5 billion isk or prevents people buying items once their value has gone x% over eve average, it doesn't prevent the scam.
It's akin to selling "navy ravens" via direct station trade to "avoid paying npc taxes." Or buying 1 unit of trit for price of plex via contracts. Heck in the end of the day, gullible people will be scammed by promise of trading isk for locked jetcan password that will contain "duped t2 bpo that has to be cept shh shh from CCP and is therefore in passworded jetcan."
You cant prevent stupidity, if you want to work against margin trading scam, ask for huge highlight window on buy that pops up and requires CAPCHA installed that spells out "YOU DUMB FCK!" if item is over 5000% over regional average. Even that wont prevent people from falling to it. |
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